In Vegas choose Render As and pick a template. Then click on Custom/Video/Video Format. They are in the drop down list.

In Virtual Dub they are under the Video/Compression/Select Video Compression list

John

Hi Harry. Somewhere you have to resize the video down to DVD resolution (720x480). You can do it in Vegas or DVDA, or you can use VD to get better quality, which is what this thread started off talking about. There is no point rendering to an intermediate size like 720, so if you need 2 sizes of output, it is better to render 2 times.

The Huffyuv and Lagarith codec will not be on your system unless you downloaded and installed them. Definitely worth doing that, especially since they are free.

Richard

Thanks

They are in ther drop down for configure only for certain video formats - they are not in the video format dropdown. Maybe before i die i'll be able to get enough info to do this. Appreciate all the help....I'll keep trying.

Thanks Richard,

That helps....i'll google those items and install them ( i actually see them out from the configure) under the Encoder tab of the FFdShow video codec

Thanks
Harry

So i've come a long way in the last couple of days and i appreciate the patience shown here with me.

At this point i've refined my process to this:

1. Pull .MOV (native 1920x1080p/30fps) into timeline
2. Edit video, add titles, cross fades, credits, whatever - finish content of movie.
3. Render in Vegas Studio to 1920x1080p/30fps with Lagarith pixel ar 1:1 (if i play resultant AVI in Windows Media Player it'd like learning how to drive a stick shift - figured that was my poor computer cound'nt process the full HD but the MP2 will be smooth)
4. Pull the full sized AVI into VirtualDub
5. In VirtualDub set the filter - add resize with Lanczos scaler to 720x405 (Match original AR)
6. In VirtualDub choose compression type for output to a Lagarith or HuffYUV AVI (Think i may have skipped this step in VD though i did this already in Vegas when i rendered....do i need to do it twice?)
7. Save .avi file
7. Bring that into DVDA and select single movie and it will automatically convert it to a MP2 for DVD burn.

I'm still crankin the VD ouput at this time........I'll take it all the way through DVDA and report back my progress.

Again thank you for all the great advice here!!

Harry, you're just about there brother!

You're not doing it twice. Every editing program needs to know how you want the output from *IT'S* work done. If you don't tell VDub different, it will write your output to uncompressed AVI. Which will create a file about 3-4 times larger than the original. The convert you did in Vegas has zero bearing here once you resize the footage. So yes, you need to tell VDub what you want to encode the footage as.


You're going to love it compared to what you had before. Now I will say this. I prefer to do my mpeg2 compression outside of DVDA. Either with Vegas, or with another good Mpeg2 tool. DVDA will do a nice job, and you'll see the difference. But if you want to step up later to a better mpeg2 tool you'll get another gain. Think of using a separate Mpeg2 encoder in this workflow, like using VirtualDub to rescale. There are just better tools out there to get the job done.

Turns out i did have it set to Lagarith compression. The resize with the Lancose3


So DVDA will do a nice job but actually taking the VD resized AVI back into Vegas and rerender to MP2 (which Vegas type do you use?)

Not quite sure what you were trying to say here, but it is my *belief* that taking the video back into Vegas for the mpeg2 render will yield higher quality results.

Perrone, Thank you for all of the helpful information that you have been sharing with us. When I posed the question when I started the thread, I had no idea how much useful information would come out in the discussion.

I beat my head against this stuff for weeks trying to find a better way to help out a friend. I must have tried a dozen codecs. To make matters tougher, he was on a Mac and I was on a PC.

I worked with the same guy on a different project and had to figure out HD PC <-> Mac workflow. That one took a while too!

I've gotten so much good info from this place, I am just glad to be able to give a little back from what I've learned on long, frustrating nights.

Perrone,

Just that you said DVDA did a nice job on the MPEG2 but i heard you to also say that Vegas did a better job outputting MPEG2.

So I have a resized to 720x480 AVI so bring that into Vegas again and

1. render using which type to output to MPEG2 in Vegas?
2. i guess apply the Lagarith again here too?

Then DVDA will not have to resize or inplicitly have to convert to MPEG2 right?

Thanks
Harry

Found the MPEG-2 Main Concepts type but could not customize the video to change the output size to same VD produced which was 720x405 - so all i could do is bring the product of VD into DVDA and burning to DVD now.....

This is correct. DVDA or Mainconcept in Vegas will both create a 720x480 project. You want that, so don't worry.

But niether enabled the the Custimize deal where i could specify the Lararith for the render.
I'm re-rendering out of vegas cause the strait through DVDA itself didn't look too hot.

So when I bring this .MPG file 720x480 into the DVDA application will it recognize that it doesn't need to re-render in DVDA and just create the folder and burn the DVD?

It's not supposed to. You are now encoding a DVD format which is Mpeg2. The Lagarith codec was just the intermediate step to make sure you lost nothing along the way in getting to this final step.

Correct. Once you output the Mpeg2 with the template in Vegas, DVDA will not recompress it. It's DVD ready, and it just organizes the DVD structure and write the file. VERY quick.

Thanks Perrone,

You da man! I now have enough to go through the whole workflow and tweek it here and there.

the video i was using looked a little better but wasn't the best exposed video to start with. Also this last DVD burn had no sound so something fell through the cracks. The virtualdub process took like 8 hours to complete!! for a 20 minute clip.......that's a long time.

I'll repeat the process on aother video soon and see it i can't make it better.

Thanks for eveyone's help!!

It's so hard talking someone through this workflow when they don't have a firm grip on some general things.

When you create DVDs, the video portion and the audio portion are compressed separately. So you compress the video in Vegas to Mpeg2. Then you compress the audio separately with the Dolby Digitial AC-3 Studio Template. Name this the same thing as you named the video file, and when you are in DVDA and drop the video file on the timeline, the audio will come with it automatically.

The Audio must be compressed separately, because audio in the DVD legal format isn't compressed with the same codec as the video. So you must separate them.

Virtualdub is generally quite fast for me, but it does use the GPU on my machines which helps I guess. Resize can be a pretty heavy function, but it's not the worst.

Harry, until you get your workflow figured out, it's good to use a 15 or even a 30 second clip. Everything speeds up, and you can tweak settings until you find the right one. Once you've got your workflow figured out on a 15-second clip, write it down (in vdub, you can set your 'resize' settings as default), then start working on bigger files.

BTW, it shouldn't take 8 hours to resize a 20-minute clip.

Yep, he's doing something wrong, or has a VERY slow machine.

[QUOTE=Perrone Ford;1263561]It's so hard talking someone through this workflow when they don't have a firm grip on some general things.[QUOTE]

My apologies. I always had the DVD app split the two in the burner app. My bad. I'd figured it out after i posted that.....

I'll sign outta here and give you all some peace.

Thanks

[QUOTE=Harry Simpson;1264577][QUOTE=Perrone Ford;1263561]It's so hard talking someone through this workflow when they don't have a firm grip on some general things.No biggie man. That's why we're here. From what I've seen, people have gotten a LOT out of this thread, so you're helping a bunch of people along...

Perrone:

I can't believe a fanatic for quality like you would use the AC-3 studio template in Vegas. It's a recipe for normalized, low dynamic range, compressed audio.

If you have to have a low bandwidth 5.1 track, it's your only only Vegas option though.

I would stick a LPCM track on the disc also as an option if you are using AC-3 and you have the spare disk room. Let the end user decide which audio track to use.

[QUOTE=Perrone Ford;1264582][QUOTE=Harry Simpson;1264577]Yeah, don't sweat it Harry. This thread started 12 days ago and has nearly 2,800 views. There are a lot of people benefitting from the thread. I know I certainly have.

Again, thanks to Perrone for his patience in helping many of us through the process.

And the info will be here over time for others to benefit from it. Even with help, it's still very much a trial and error process.

My bread and butter at the office is spoken word, long form conferences. I just don't need anything else. If I am doing narrative work then I make different choices.

Still don't have an answer to what to do with progressive footage shot at 1080/30p from an EX1.

1. Render out an intermediate avi lossless file at 1920 x 1080 using which template for the Lagarith or Huffy UV?

2. Resize in VD at 720 x 405?? or change to 480? Use a lossless codec. Interlaced?? Where is Progressive in VD? What do I do with progressive footage in VD?

3. Load resized avi into vegas and render to an Mpeg 2 for DVDA as what? Interlaced, Progressive?

4. Field order problems?

John

Slightly OT - but applies

John:

I have been shooting mostly in 1920X1080P30. It does seem to make as good of SD widescreen as any other format when you figure out your workflow. I still go with a single NLE render (Vegas) and keep it simple.

What I am wondering is if we shouldn't all just start shooting the dreaded interlaced (1920X1080i60) if we are not shooting 24P? 24P is the only native HD and SD progressive format.

We are all rendering back to interlaced anyway, and Blu-Ray does not even support 30P so you have to render to 60i interlaced for that too. I am starting to wonder what the purpose of 30P is since there is no native 30P playback.

What do you mean? What you "do with it" is totally dependent on how you will deliver. Web, DVD, BluRay... all demand something different.

Make a template. 1080p, PCM 16bit/48khz audio (or whatever your camera shot) Huffyuv or Lagarith codec. Done. Simple.

720x405. Interlaced? Why? You shot progressive. Let it stay progressive. VD is expecting progressive and likes it. Leave it alone.

NTSC 60i Widescreen. It's a pre-built template. Use it.


None if you keep everything progressive until you build the mpeg2 for the DVD. Don't over complicate things.

Set your template in DVDA to NTSC widescreen 720x480 and you're golden.

I just did this workflow on my editing machine as a test. Rendered a one second 1080/30p with Lagarith from Vegas, all the way through DVDA. Works fine.

Good gracious why? If you plan to deliver for broadcast (over the air or on optical) then yes, shoot 24p or 60i. Otherwise, shoot what you want.


No, we are not all rendering back to interlaced.

I don't typically shoot 30p, but if I have significant motion, and I am delivering for non-broadcast, then 30p becomes viable. I typically shoot 24p or 60p though.

Jeff, arbitrarily converting to or from interlaced to progressive is a "nasty" thing to do. The temporal shift with interlaced fields is a problem when converting to progressive from interlaced or vice versa. With 60i versus 30P, the time between interlaced fields causes a blurring of edges if there is any motion in the video when converting from 60i to 30P because each field was recorded at a different moment in time. The blurring is because when the fields are converted to progressive. the interlaced fields are forced to be displayed at the same time even thought one of the source fields was not shot at the same moment in time as the other field. As a result, moving subjects are not at the same place in each field. To force each field to be displayed at the same moment in time makes them blurry on the edges when there is motion.

There are reasons that it may be appropriate to convert from interlaced to progressive such as preparing a video for display on a computer screen or online. But "improving" the quality of the video is NOT one of the reasons to convert - - most especially if the video is to be played on an interlaced TV. There are bad ways and fair ways to convert from interlaced to progressive; there aren't any "good" ways. The bad way just combines the fields and does nothing to reduce the motion edge blur. The fair way to do something, such as throwing away one of the fields and doubling the other to preserve the aspect ratio, cuts the vertical resolution in half but with this approach there is no edge blurring when there is motion. The loss of vertical resolution might not be important when the end format doesn't need the resolution such as web page videos. Just keep in mind that your vertical resolution is cut in half with this method.

When 30P is displayed on an interlaced TV screen, there is noticeable judder when there in motion. I personally don't care for the judder look. Others like it because they think it is more "film-like". But to me it is distracting to see a video with blurry edges that judders. Why not also put projector noise on the audio track and call it film-like audio!?

For the look of 30p, that's why.

If you shoot it 30p and have to put it to Blu-ray as 60i, that's not changing the fact that it was shot 30p and will have the look of 30p.

And yes, without question it will look better on a LCD instead of a CRT, and that's the way the world is going anyway.

I don't like the judder of 24p for what I do, but 30p, that I do like. It's all a matter of your own style that you want for your video.

SD DVD that looks good on a CRT television as well as an HDTV. That is where I am having all the problems. HDTV video looks good. CRT always looks bad with ghostly outlines on people and objects and aliasing especially when anything moves. Twitter is worse than footage shot on an SD cam.

OK - got it.

Didn't know that.

In terms of 405, it defaults to 405 and not 480. Some here are rendering to that. Are you are saying I should change it to 480 or leave it at 405?



On a CRT TV? Maybe there is something wrong with my camera.

John

I think the issue lies in your camera setup, not your workflow.

Leave it at 405. It will letterbox itself when it gets rendered to Mpeg2.


I have a CRT TV in my editing suite. I hve a CRT TV at home. I have to drop stuff on my laptop and take it to my preview room to see it on a plasma or LCD. I think the issue you are having is you are using detail enhancement in the camera. Grab one of the excellent camera setups from the sticky section in the EX1 section on this webpage. That should fix it.

Thanks for the help Perrone. Really appreciate it.

John

Perrone (or anyone else who would help me).

Here is a sample of an SD Mpeg clip for DVDA that was progressive all the way through. It will not display properly on a CRT without motion aliasing. The colored outline on the edges is visible as well. This was done as follows:

1. Load EX1 footage (1920 x 1080p/30) as mxf onto Vegas timeline. Match project properties to mxf files.
2. Render out Huffy UV to avi file.
3. Resize in VD using Lanczos 3 resize filter and Huffy UV compression to 720 x 405 progressive.
4. Bring avi back into Vegas and render as DVDA video stream (NOTE: Problems showed up on JVC CRT pro external monitor before I even rendered).

I tried disabling smart resampling as well.

http://vimeo.com/download/video:5644...933d2c00e25490

Vimeo said the download is available for a week.

There is no audio. Can someone burn this on a DVDRW with DVDA and try playing it on a CRT?

Thanks to anyone who can help me with this major problem.

It's private and says we can't download it.

Do you have to sign in first? Not sure. Is there another place I can put the file that you know of?

John

I am signed in. Send me a link to just your profile on vimeo, and I'll download the file.

http://vimeo.com/6283645


I think this does it?

Log in and the download link is on the bottom right hand side of the page.

John

I had to change the privacy settings for some reason.

Yea, I got it...

In camera sharpening is BRUTAL. You have GOT to turn that off. Otherwise there just isn't anything to be done in post short of a gaussian blur on the whole thing.

Use this setting:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/976293-post389.html

Except change Detail Setting from 0 to -20. That should solve what you're seeing here.

I added unsharp mask (medium strength) to the final output and I don't remember any in camera sharpening being set, but why all the aliasing if it is progressive all the way? There are pronounced horizontal interlacing lines on the video when displayed on a CRT.

John

I just checked. Picture profiles have been off since I bought the camera over a year ago. Doesn't that mean there is no "detail on"? Isn't that where the in camera sharpening would come from if it were turned on?

I will try those settings though. I guess the default settings for the camera produce this problem? Is that right? You must have a picture profile set in order to avoid aliasing in SD DVD even if it is progressive?