avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

Hello,
Can someone tell me why I can't get my Vegas pro 10 to render 1080i PAL mts files (from my camera) to
render as well (quality wise) as good as DVD Architect pro 5 does.
Meaning if I put a clip straight into architect and burn a Standard DVD the quality is far superior than from a file rendered by Vegas. If I use a vegas rendered file in architect and burn to dvd the end result has a double image on any motion giving a blurred effect.

I get good results using the SONY AVC codec but ocassionally lose the sound or some of the sound. Very strange.
I really need some tried and tested settings, as I'm running out of things to try.

Regards
Richard Green

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

When you render from Vegas, are you using the default "DVD Architect PAL Widescreen DVD" mpeg-2 setting for the video stream?

(I may have misremembered exactly what it's called but it's something like that)

Regards
David

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

I cannot help on the specifics, since I'm in NTSC land, but it is clear your settings in Vegas are not optimum.

I personally wouldn't render AVCHD files 1080i without transcoding first in a third party program, though there are those that do, and some say with good results. The trick is to know the settings.

You might try rendering your project to avi first, then re-rendering in Vegas. It might take a couple of attempts to get it right.

Something else you might try; go to project properties for your project, and check the "Adjust source media to better match etc." then try and render your 1080i footage, see if that helps.

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

Hello David,
Yes, I have tried that, with default and various settings, and results are not good.
Nowhere near as good as an mts file rendered by architect directly to dvd.

Regards & Thanks
Richard

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

Hi Jeff,
I've done the project settings thing you mention, the little icon top right of the diologue box.

Why would rendering to AVI and then rerendering in vegas improve matters Jeff,not sure what you're
getting at!

In "theory" I would like vegas to "Render" as MTS and only render effects such as dissolves,fades etc without touching the original clips at all. But at the moment it is rendering everything.

What settings do you use and are your SD DVD's taken with HD camera better than your SD DVD's
taken with say a sd dv camera.
Regards
Richard

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

This is a huge topic that has probably more threads devoted to it than any other, and many of those that are knoweldgeable about it are likely worn out discussing it. I know I am, and I'm still learning it.

I only know that after using HD link to encode my video to avi prior to editing the results were outstanding, and that is a method used by many people.

DVDA is simply doing a better job than you are of resizing, etc. You either need to learn how to resize your video using Vegas, which I can't help you with, or buy tmpgenc or cineform and use a different workflow.

I face the same issues as you, and have yet to select the software program I will use. My busy season is coming up and I must make a choice.

The scenario of people like you and me buying cameras, and then learning the painful truth of how difficult it can be to deal with the footage in post is happening daily.

What makes it trickier, is some avchd footage renders out fine for SD in Vegas, and some doesn't. I recently edited a wedding shot with a HMC-150 and tried to render it out to mpeg 2 and it worked perfectly, I was stunned with the results.

I've tried it with footage shot with my GH2, and it looked terrible. Part of it has to do with the settings used while shooting. 720p, I think might work better than 1080i. I don't know.

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

Hi Jeff,
I'm sure people on this forum a sick and tired of the same questions regarding AVCHD to SD DVD, unfortunately I have found HD video to be not an exact science (I'm sure it is). Seems to be a lot of trial and error particularly if you don't know what you are doing. (like me at this stage). However, in the last few hours I have had some success and have found that if I set vegas properties to match the clips on the timeline but change the Deinterlace Method to Blend Fields, set the Render As to Sony AVC using the AVCHD 1920X1080-50i not customised apart from checking the sound is selected, producing an m2ts file.
And letting Architect do the resizing. It seems to have produced a very very smooth detailed dvd.
Just tried a few seconds of video and am now trying a longer run with a couple of dissolves and fades.

Does all this make sense, or am I way off target!

HD Link is it hardware or software.

Regards
Richard

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

No Adam, I'm not referring to Black magic, but to a cineform product that is part of NeoHD.

Richard, your project properties should match your footage, I think, but you can make the adjustments you mentioned in your render template (blending fields, etc.)

Ideally you don't want DVDA to recompress at all, not a good thing.

HD link that I'm referring to is software and part of the NeoHd software suite sold by Cineform. You can download a trial, which I did, and it works like a charm. Small learning curve with the settings, but not bad. It costs $400US. Very pricey for one little program, but there is none better for this job.

There is also tmpgenc, which is a consumer program that I have downloaded, but not tried. Some around here are using it successfully. I don't like it's interface, but I'm weird. It costs $100.

Go to the Cineform website, download the trial of NeoHd. You take your original footage, and render it to avi using hd link. Then you edit the avi version and render to mpeg 2. DVDA architect will then produce a close to perfect video for you.

There are ways to do this within Vegas, I have been told, but I have not learned how. The person who says it can be done did not share the specifics.

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

Oh, I did not realize there were two separate products of the same name. Quite frankly, I was puzzled what the HDLink I knew about had to do with this topic. So, thanks for straightening it out. :)

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

Adam, there are bunches of products named HD Link, I still don't understand why the freaking name is so popular. Very confusing.

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

Richard, in the end if you stumble across a method for you that works you really don't have to do anything else.

You might try Cineform trial and then use that workflow once just to see if your results are any better than what you are currently getting. Trial is good for 14 days.

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

Richard, I have been misinformed, and in turn I have misinformed you and many other people.

Apparently Cineform "Neoscene" does everything you and I need, and it costs $100, not $400.

Neoscene and HDlink are the same thing, apparently, but HDlink has more input options, which doesn't affect me.

Go here to download read more: Cineform Neoscene

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

Hi to all and thanks for your input.
Jeff, my method didn't work on the longer video, the video was fine but the sound shrunk to about two thirds the length of the clip. But I think I know where I'm going now. I know what's causing the motion blur, not sure what I'm going to do about it yet, but working on it.
Thanks for the info regarding Neoscene, I will look into that, I also have software called Mainconcept Reference, which I think does a similar job, but haven't got my head round it yet.

Any more info about any of this would be appreciated, especially working settings.

Regards
Richard

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

Hi all,
Still no takers, for my problem.
To recap I have an MTS file (1080 50i PAL) file on my time line, all I want to do is to
render to a suitable format for Architect to write a SD DVD. I've tried using mainconcept
mpeg2 and although it works, the quality is rubbish, anything in the video that moves
is a double image, so am sure it's to do with interlacing.
What I would like is some tried and tested settings.
Vegas 10 should be able to this without resorting to more expensive software, and
I'm sure it can. If I import the same mts clip straight from the camera into architect,
it works perfectly. Although Architect isn't happy using this file format.

Regards
Richard

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

Richard, many of the most knowledgable people in this forum gave up a long time ago and are using Neoscene. I'm talking about old hands that have been using Vegas since it was introduced many years ago.

Someone may chime in with a magic forumula, but so far I've never seen it.

Some formats simply don't resize in Vegas well, and yours seems to be one. Vegas is not optimized for HD to SD workflow, and it is just the unfortunate reality.

Is it fair? No. Vegas should easily handle this.

Don't forget the trial of Neoscene is free and you'll have 14 days of full functionality to use it if you choose, or try the other program you have and see if it works.

When you resize using a specially designed program, all guess work is taken out of it and you can know you are getting the best quality you can.

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

Hi Jeff,
I now have a trial version NeoScene installed and ready to go!
What's the workflow?

Richard

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

My method was to first batch re-encode the original footage.

Then, you edit the new footage, and render out to the template as shown in the attached pic. BTW, you were using the correct setting as shown in the photo, right?

Choosing the settings in Neoscene is the tricky part, it's not hard, but you will need to feel your way around as I did.

Keep in mind you are learning a new piece of software, but once you have it down it will be click click click, and you'll be set. But you will have to learn the nuances, such as where to tell Neoscene to put the new footage, etc. I used HD link, so your interface will be slightly different I think. HDlink and Neoscene are basically the same, but slightly different, but I didn't know that until yesterday.

You might get impatient initially, as I did, just stick with it. I haven't used it for weeks, and have had no need for it up to this point, so I cannot be of much specific help right now. I will be using it tons in a few weeks when my busy season starts thought.

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

When you have questions about using it, go here: CineForm Software Showcase Forum at DVinfo.net

Announce you are new to Neoscene in a new thread and ask for help. You need to play around with it first to get familiar so you understand the interface enough to know what is meant when someone helps you.

Report back and let us know how it goes. It is a great piece of software.

Oh, there are different workflows, but the one you choose depends on your goals. For example there is a way of doing things to allow you to produce both DVD and Bluray, but that is a different workflow. If you are definitely going to ONLY do SD DVD, then my worflow is perfect. But if you want the option to do either, than the order of events is different.

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

Hi Jeff,
Not impressed yet :-)
I've run the program and I get a convert/capture window called hdlink.
I've just converted one clip, took forever and am left with a file 700mb which
Vegas won't open, codec error.

What is it supposed to convert to.

Regards
Richard

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

You will be be encoding to avi. Uncheck the overwrite files so as not to lose your footage.

Click on prefs to changes settings, play with it. It is not instantaneous. You must not expect high-end encoding to be super quick. If you want quick use DVDA to encode as you were doing.

CineForm Software Showcase Forum at DVinfo.net

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

Hi Jeff,
Just done another convert with another different setup.
It created another 700mb file. If I play it in windows media player, it plays in slow motion and the verticals are torn. Interlace problems. Vegas won't even open it!
I'm quickly losing the will to live.

Richard

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

Oh, that's the other thing, Cineform files won't play back in WMP. I know it's weird. Also, there is something you must do in Vegas when you bring your new Cineform file into it. I'll get back to you. Don't freak out, it's quite simple, just hang on.

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

The following must be done for Cineform files to look right. It is complicated why this is so, but just do it.

Bring the Cineform clip onto the Vegas timeline.
2. Open Project properties and match your project properties to the clip and close.

3. Click on Project Media tab and right-click on the clip. Select properties and click. Go to Pixel Aspect prooperties and select the correct setting. For me it is 1.2121 for widescreen DVD, but for you it will be different.

4. Important! go upward to the save icon to the right of Stream as shown in the attached pic. click save. You're done. You will not have to do this again for Cineform files.

edit your files and render to the correct setting for DVD.

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

Hi

Rendering out via Vegas should work fine although the quality isn't always great no matter how you go about HD to SD. A lot of the issues are due to square pixels moving to SD which isn't. As 1080i footage has to first be de-interlaced which is an art in itself, it's then resized (another art, so many ways you can resize an image), then it's re-interlaced and then stretched for SD widescreen playback. The main issue is the interlaced frames then don't interlace very well. It's also very dependant on what is in the footage, so you think you find something that works, do another project and it looks awful.

I would suggest when rendering out make sure the Project settings tab is set to Best. Also sometimes because of the rougher interlacing playing back on a computer can see it getting confused with how it should de-interlace the footage to display it (giving double images for example), so always check for playback on a TV which should do a better job.

Another option is 25p on the DVD, although motion will not be as smooth.

Hope that helps a little.

Regards

Phil

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

Hi

In your settings you are creating progressive SD footage if I'm not mistaken? Creating progressive SD usually isn't that much of a problem with most software, it's the re-interlacing that seems to causes the most issues I find, as that is when the original de-interlacing and resizing, if not done well or suited to the type of footage, will show the flaws as those interlaced frames just don't interlace correctly.

Regards

Phil

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

Uhmm, why would you re-interlace if you have de-interlaced?

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

I believe the OP never brought up the issue of interlacing. He is simply trying to produce a DVD from AVCHD video.

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

I was just referring to this Jeff.
Am I missing something? why would you not carry through progressive if you have already de-interlaced?

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

I don't know why Phil broght it up, Gerald. The original poster was assisted through the steps to use Cineform, but then he disappeared, so to speak. He is either busy doing other things, or is taking a break from the whole thing. Don't know.

Phil kindly took the time to chime in, but Richard was at a point where is was last seen trying to convert his footage with Cineform, which would serve him well if he were to stick with it.

Maybe the OP made a comment earlier that I forgot about regarding interlacing, and that was what Phil was referring to. But of course you are exactly right as you say.

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

Hi

You would if you wanted to keep the temporal information, i.e. keep it at 50i.

The process and issues are something like this; You have to de-interlace 1080i to 1080p at 50/60 frames a second before resizing, as resizing a field (rather than a complete whole frame) will end up with significantly worse footage.

There are good and bad de-interlacers, if a good job isn't done of de-interlacing this will be magnified several fold in the SD output. Different de-interlacing methods suit different scenes, more sophisticated de-interlaces will try and analysis the scene type and switch methods accordingly, at the cost of taking a long time.

Each frame is then resized down to SD resolution, again there are many ways of doing this, and different methods suit different footage, the better ones take longer of course, see here for a list of all the possible methods supported by [url=http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/ResizeAVISynth[/url]. Usually it is here that most NLE software just uses a rough and ready, but quick resize.

You now have SD but at 50 progressive frames per second, which isn't supported on DVD of course, so you now have to take frame 1 and pull out all the odd lines, then frame 2 and all the even lines and so on, this gets you 50i again. The problem here is these fields are really pseudo fields, they never existing in reality, they don't really mesh together in the way they would have done if captured originally at that resolution and size.

This SD footage is now compressed to MPEG2, further losing some detail and adding artefacts, and then how do we watch it, yep, on a progressive display where it is squished to having non-square pixels and is de-interlaced back up to 50p. The fields basically rattle around inside one another causing loss of resolution, moire and stepping etc

It's interesting regarding Cineform, because that is just a codec, why is that making a difference? Unless the codec is getting HD footage, and is set for SD, which forces it through a resize through a Cineform API before being encoded, and that is a better one than Vegas. It just goes to show its a black art. I'll give it a go and see.

To the OP, make sure in Vegas you have set de-interlacing under properties to Interpolate, blend can give you doubled images.

Regards

Phil

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

Hi Guys,
OP back, had some other stuff to do today and had to just stand back from this hd video nightmare and get my head clear as to where I'm going with the problem. Thanks Jeff for all your help, still not sure about Neoscene. Not going to comment on it at the moment, too early, but I will eventually.
And thanks Phill, that was a most interesting post about interlacing, I DID mention interlacing in post #15 and am sure this is where my problem lies. What is strange (to me) is that if I put an MTS file straight from the camera (which is 1080 50i PAL) into DVD Architect and let it render with default settings, I get
acceptable results. (smooth motion). I put the same file into Vegas and render using the Mainconcept MPEG2 CODEC and the DVD Architect PAL Widescreen video stream Template. (default settings). And when put into Architect and burn to DVD, It looks terrible. See attached! I have had a little success since I started this thread in as much as I now have vegas resizing properly and have tried the blend and interpolated settings and yes the interpolated setting is best but on burning the dvd, when played the motion is not fluid, looks almost strobe like, but no double image when put in freeze frame.
Phill would you care to share your settings or workflow etc.
Would appreciate it!
Regards
Richard

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

Hi

When you say you render from Vegas with "default settings" to MPEG2 are you changing under properties in the advanced section to use Best rendering? If not I don't think Vegas de-interlaces properply.

You also need to check the advanced render settings for Mainconcept MPEG2, make sure it is set for upper field first and 25fps, I'd also up the target/average bit-rate to 9000 for extra quality.

Is DVD Architect re-encoding when you use the footage to make the DVD, you can check this using the "Optimise" option on the wizard as you start the process, it should have a tick against the video to say it is accepted, if it is crossed, DVD Architect goes through the whole render process again. Also for DVD Architect make sure the Project settings are for 25fps and Interlaced upper field first, and not defaulting NTSC type settings.

As for my workflow I'm still experimenting, currently I render out as Lagarith uncompressed RGB 1920x1080 from Sony Vegas then step out of Vegas completely. Using MeGUI and AVISynth (free tools) I compress to HD for Blu-ray, this uses the x264 encoder which is pretty much considered one of the best and it's open source and best of all free. For SD DVD, I've not needed to do many and Vegas has worked okay, nothing odd like double frames but not steller results, but now have a couple to do and back to experimenting, using AVISynth I can use a better de-interlacer and resizing method and so far getting some good results.

Some further reading here might be of interest http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/adobe-cr...2-hdv-dvd.html.

Regards

Phil

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

Hello Phill,
Yes, went into project properties and set to best rendering. Set the interlace to interpolate. Set everything to upper, 25fps. Bit rate set to 8000 as I thought that was the highest possible for SD DVD.

Your setting for Architect was interesting, I notice the interlacing in Architect was/is set on Auto and recompress was/is set to Off, are you saying interlace should be on to force Architect to interlace and
should recompress be on again to force Architect to recompress.
Of course I will try these setting when I get back into it.
I read in your suggested Link that Procoder 3 is supposed to do an exceptional job. If I was to use Procoder 3, at what stage would I use it. Would I use it to turn all my MTS files into mpg and then edit and
render as normal through vegas.
Your thoughts or experiences please.
Thanks and Regards
Richard

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

Hi

Keep all your files native, converting to the final format should be the very last thing you do. DVD will support around 9800 maximum for video bit-rate.

So to sanity check then.

Your source is 1080i/50 video.
Project settings are set to Interpolate for de-interlacing, and set for 1920x1080 upper field first/25fps
You click Render As...
Save as type: MainConcept MPEG2
Click Custom...
You select DVD Architect PAL Widescreen video stream
Change field order to Upper field first, frame rate is 25
Prioritize quality over speed is checked
Video quality slider up to the maximum
Variable bit rate, max is 9,500,000
Average changed to: 9000
Audio is ticked to include it
Under System, no check in Save as separate elementary streams
Under Project, video rendering quality is Best

*** At this point it is convenient to save these settings ***
Type something in the Template name so you know it's your own template, click the Save icon, now you can just select this directly and have the settings applied.

Click OK, then Save

The output should play okay on your computer and should be used as is by DVD Architect to create a DVD.

Worth giving it a go if there is a free trial, but you should get fairly acceptable results from Vegas.

Regards

Phil

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

Hello Phill,
That worked perfectly, only thing is, I'm not sure what is different to how I'd set it before.
Apart from two settings and that was the average bit rate, which you put up to 9,000,000,
I had left that to the default 6,500,000? and the BEST setting in the project tab, I missed that one
completely. I'd sussed out the interlacing this afternoon, I'd got rid of the double image during pause,
but wasn't getting smooth motion, I guess it was the average bit rate increase which has cured it.
Doesn't play too well on the computer, as expected. But silky smooth on the DVD.

Now I just have to get a faster computer to speed up rendering and working on the timeline.

So Phill, thanks again for taking the time to share your knowledge and for saving my sanity,
much appreciated. Hope I will be able to return the favour sometime.

And thanks to all the other posters in this thread, especially Jeff.
Regards
Richard

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

Hi

Good to read you are getting some decent results now.

You can get away a bit more with a lower average setting if you use 2 pass encoding and your footage is a mixture of static and fast scenes, with the benefit of course you can get more on a DVD, with a 9000 average rate you are looking at around an hours footage per single layer disc, and there is little need to wait twice as long for 2 pass encoding at that higher rate.

Personally I find with interlaced footage sourced from HD it just doesn't want to compress that well so you really want to stick to an hour per disc at the higher bit-rate to keep as much quality as you can, otherwise it can struggle.

It's a bit of a learning curve this editing lark that's for sure.

Regards

Phil

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

i never encode at full (9) bit rate since there's a few (older) dvd players out there that just can't handle it - and you never know if your client / audience has one at home ;-(

i've found (and researching through the various groups) that 8.5 is almost indiscernible from 9, and will play on any dvd player.

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

Hi

I know what you mean, depends if this is for personal use or not I guess.

However I've never found a DVD player that can't play these higher rates which lets remember are within specification. Maybe very old/early/failing DVD players that were struggling with recordable DVD-Rs made on early DVD writers might have stuttered on the highest rate but I doubt these are still in use.

Also it is still using VBR so the rate will be dropping below the higher target anyway, giving plenty of time for buffers to fill up.

There may not be much difference between 9000 and 8500 in an instance in time, but you are telling the encoder with VBR it has more available to allocate and doesn't have to be so conservative with allocating the maximum amount of bits over extended periods.

After getting so used to HD, every single bit on SD helps I always think :-)

Regards

Phil

Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10
 

Hi Phill,
I will stick with the settings you gave me first time round as I am happy with the results.
I noticed the default bit rate for architect is 8mbs, suitable for almost all DVD players, it says. But
I think DVD Players are better than they used to be. I test all my recorded DVD's in an old
player (Yamada DVD 2500). Cheap and cheerful, but I figure that if it can play them without
problem a high end player should be able to. Having said that, I have a couple of reasonably
expensive DVD recorders and neither of them will look at a re-writeable and the Yamada does.
Technology!
Going back to editing, I've been using Vegas for several years (since sonic foundry had it) and love it to bits. It's the HD stuff that's new to me and was ok with mini dv. I also have an Apple Mac which produced excellent results straight off. But Final Cut Pro compared to Vegas is a Dinosaur, awful to use, so I want to stick with Vegas and try and come to terms with Final Cut pro at a later date.

Regards
Richard