Best Rendering Setting for 24p (deinterlaced)??

[Jeff McElroy]

Quick question...

my head hurts from going around in circles, and some quick clarification would be awesome. If anything is wrong, please correct the error of my ways:

1) Footage shot with the XL2: 24p Standard

2) Edited (Vegas 5) on a 23.97 timeline

3) Render video out to mpeg2: 23.97 (+2:3 pull down)**

DVD architect (2.0): Burn as a 23.97 (24p) dvd


Question:

**do I use the pull down only when using 24p Advanced, standard… what? Why is there an option for 23.976 and 24.000fps? What is the difference?

[Jeff McElroy]

Um, not to nag... but I kind of need to asap. : )

[Jeff Baker]

So what is the deal with 2-3 pull down in the sony vegas 6 mpeg2 templates?

If I want the DVD player to perform the pull down for me, why can't I render a mpeg2 DVD at 23.976 without the pulldown?

Well I just tried it and the resulting file imported into DVD Architect 3.0c just fine (a 6000mbts cbr .mpg file with assoiciated ac-3 audio). BUT when I went to burn the DVD I was told that the file was not compliant and that the file would be recompressed.

So what's up with that? The only other test (I am trying now) is to render with the Output type set to MPEG-2 instead of DVD in video tab of the MainConcept MPEG-2 DVD Architect 24P NTSC video stream template menu (whew).

Would that work?
Or should I just stick to the 3-2 pull down requirement?

[Don Donatello]

from what i can tell the DVDa 24p template does not add pull down. it appears to add flags where it should go so your stand alone DVD player can add the pull down.

[Jeff Baker]

Okay, that is a relief. Thanks.

[John Rofrano]

Originally Posted by Jeff Baker

The only other test (I am trying now) is to render with the Output type set to MPEG-2 instead of DVD in video tab of the MainConcept MPEG-2 DVD Architect 24P NTSC video stream template menu (whew).

Would that work?

You must have done something in your template to make it non-standard. Just use the MainConcept MPEG-2 DVD Architect 24P NTSC video stream template and you’ll be OK. That’s what those templates are there for. All of the DVD Architect XXX video stream templates will work without requiring recompression.

~jr

[Jeff Baker]

The only template change I made was 23.976 (with 2-3 pulldown) to just plain 23.976.

I have tried it both ways now and without the pulldown choice, DVD architect will not consider it compliant. I have not tried changing the setup choice form DVD to MPEG-2 which I understand can help with compliant problems in some authoring programs (no time as I am try to finish this project).

[Dale Paterson]

John:

I am just monitoring this thread for interest sake and I have noticed something:

In Douglas' article he makes reference to a PAL template:

"Name the file, choose .avi as the file format, select NTSC or PAL DV (inserting 2:3 Pulldown)"

and you also make reference to PAL in this thread.

I have no PAL template that inserts any kind of pulldown i.e. all of the templates that insert pulldown of one sort or another are NTSC templates and if you use one of these templates and then change the video format to PAL DV you are basically changing the template back to a standard PAL DV render template i.e. you lose the ability to select '23.976 (inserting 2-3 pulldown) although the Field Order does change to 'None (progressive scan)' automatically.

This is confusing me.

I shoot in PAL.

If I also want to try and make my 25fps interlaced video 'look like film' which templates / what changes do I need to use / make in Vegas 6.0d?

Regards,

Dale.

[David Jimerson]

I don't think you can, Dale; if you use an uncompressed AVI or an SD YUV PAL template, you can have PAL resolution (720x576) with 24.000 or 23.976 for your frame rate, but I don't see a way to insert pulldown.

But you don't really need to. Pulldown is only a concern if you're trying to view 24p on a 60i monitor -- or trying to record 24p in a 60i stream. It's really only an NTSC concern, and trying to back-engineer PAL footage into it if you're staying in a PAL environment isn't really worth the headaches.

PAL versions of 24p cameras like the DVX don't shoot 24p; they shoot 25p, which matches the PAL frame rate standard and is only a single frame per second different from 24p. Most people can't tell the difference.

You can convert 50i to 25p easily. In your project settings, change the field order to progressive, and then the deinterlace method according to how much motion you have -- if you have a lot, choose "interpolate"; if you don't have much, choose "blend." Then, when you render, use a PAL template and choose "progressive" as your field order -- or, choose "uncompressed" and the settings will automatically conform to your project settings.

This is going to get you a film look and is going to save you headaches. If you don't have to get wrapped up in pulldown issues, don't.

[John Rofrano]

Sorry for the confusion. You are correct. There is no such thing as 24p PAL. 24p is NTSC only. PAL never created a standard for it. I believe that when transferring film for PAL they simply speed it up by 4% and use the already established 25fps standard.

When I was answering the follow-on question about MPEG2 templates I was speaking in general and not specifically about the 24p templates. My point was to not use the Default templates and use the DVD Architect video stream templates instead.

The definition of pulldown (i.e., Telecine) is the procedure of converting 23.976 fps video to 29.970 fps by adding extra frames. So “pulldown” by its very nature is an NTSC concept having nothing to do with PAL.

~jr

[Dale Paterson]

Thanks for the replies.

David - I just want to clarify something else with you - something that has had me confused (due to different peoples input and ideas) since Vegas 3.0!

...In your project settings, change the field order to progressive...

and

...when you render, use a PAL template and choose "progressive" as your field order -- or, choose "uncompressed" and the settings will automatically conform to your project settings.

Two questions:

Should your Project Properties not match your source file?

and

Do the settings in your Project Properties affect the output of your final Render Template?

Regards,

Dale.

[Jeff Baker]

I'm sure everyone out here already does this and will shake there heads knowingly as I cry.... Windows decided to update and reboot at 3am last night while I was rendering my 24p project!

It was a long project (10 hour render) so you can imagine my frustration.

I just turned off automatic updates in control panel. So anyone about to do a long render might want to keep this little detail in mind.

[David Jimerson]

Originally Posted by Dale Paterson

Thanks for the replies.

David - I just want to clarify something else with you - something that has had me confused (due to different peoples input and ideas) since Vegas 3.0!


and



Two questions:

Should your Project Properties not match your source file?

and

Do the settings in your Project Properties affect the output of your final Render Template?

Regards,

Dale.

With Vegas, you can put pretty much any format on any timeline and Vegas will cover you. It can get more complicated if your source file is widely different from your project settings, in which case it's better to convert, say, 60i to 24p FIRST if you want to edit in 24p.

But converting 50i to 25p is pretty straightforward. And IDEALLY, you want to be editing in the format you intend to be your final output. Some NLEs require this. Vegas doesn't. But there are advantages.

When you render and set your field order to "progressive," Vegas will use the deinteralce method of your project settings. (Not sure what it doesn't if you haven't chosen one; I'd suspect it interpolates.) Set the appropriate method in your project settings, and you're good to go. And also, as I said, if you choose to render an uncompressed AVI, the render settings will automatically match your project settings, which can be a timesaver.

Also, when you edit, you want as much of "what you see is what you get" as you can have, and editing in the intended render format will help you a great deal.

That being said, Vegas isn't limited by project settings, and you can render as pretty much anything you want. Just be aware, as with all things, if there are many different ways of doing something, some ways will be better than others.

[Dale Paterson]

Hi David,

Thanks for the reply.

There have been two issues that for me have never been resolved or satisfactorily explained:

1 - When rendering to any uncompressed format Vegas ALWAYS creates an uncompressed .AVI with 'Upper Field First' no matter what your project settings were or what settings you selected in the render template. Have YOU ever checked or seen this? What I mean to say is that even although Vegas picks up your project settings when you choose the uncompressed render template this does not necessarily mean that Vegas has in fact created a file with those properties - at least Vegas itself does not seem to think so. Just try this - project properties set to anything you like - render using uncompressed template and use progressive - then create a new project and let Vegas 'match' the project properties to your new file - Vegas sees this new file as having upper field first not progressive as you specified at render time.

2 - Vegas does strange things with the de-interlace method set in the project properties i.e. if you select blend or interpolate and then render dv to dv you get interlace flicker in the resulting output file. This is strange to say the least. Also - if you render any HDV file (.m2t or Cineform) to SD DV with the de-interlace method set to none you get the same interlace flicker in the output file.

Any thoughts on the above?

Regards,

Dale.

[David Jimerson]

1) No. Never seen that happen. When I render uncompressed and progressive, the file is always progressive.

2) I haven't seen that flicker, either. Where do you see it? Playing it on/in what?