To Render or Not to Render... at DVinfo.net

Dean Orewiler · April 24th, 2006, 12:40 PM

I'm a little confused on how I should do my workflow here. I am shooting a movie, and I'm in the Vegas mode so I can get a continuous file from each tape. I want to break it up into clips in the trimmer and save each take into particular folders, but I don't know how to save them and paste them into the folder for future reference.

Also, should I keep the file a VF or can I render it and then use it later to cut up or add into my timeline...If I render before hand, will I have to render it again? Or does it need the whole project to be kept in VF until the final moment of rendering and transporting to DVD architech??

Please respond as soon as you can...I'm shooting in 2 weeks.
Thanks and greetings from Indiana.
Dean

David Jimerson · April 25th, 2006, 05:53 AM

OK, I'll bite -- what's a "VF"?

Your best bet is to have scene detection enabled on capture -- Vegas will create separate clips for each time you stop/start the camera.

You'll have the option of deciding which folder to save the clips in. Look under "disk management" in the capture program.

Steven Davis · April 25th, 2006, 06:00 AM

[QUOTE=David Jimerson]OK, I'll bite -- what's a "VF"?
QUOTE]

well, I certainly feel less ignorant.... :}

Dean Orewiler · April 25th, 2006, 09:14 AM

I'm not sure what version you guys have of Vegas, but I'm getting a VF file after I capture video. I'm assuming it means: Vegas File....not sure, I didn't design it. Yes, I know it sounds ignorant, but I'm new to this and I'm going by the extension at the end of the file.. It's a VF file until I render it and then it turns into a MPEG-1 or 2 depending which one I choose. I have Vegas Movie Maker Platinum + DVD. Thanks for your advice David..I'll give it a try.

Dean Orewiler · April 25th, 2006, 09:27 AM

Great video tutorial David !! Now, does my version edit in 24P???

David Jimerson · April 25th, 2006, 10:10 AM

Thanks!

Movie Maker does not edit 24p. That doesn't mean you can't use a 24p camera; you just can't edit in 24p.

What kind of a camera are you capturing from?

Dean Orewiler · April 25th, 2006, 12:00 PM

Hi David:
I'm shooting from an XL1S...so, I'm not getting a true 24p anyhow...is that correct? What if I upgrade to Vegas 6 from Movie Maker later? Is that possible, and then I could take the video footage in at a later time and do the 24p conversion. We want to enter our movie into festivals, so there is a possibility that is will later be converted to film.

If I take a file (after I edit in timeline) and save it (without rendering) can I later in Vegas 6 go to 24p? Or should I render it in a MPEG-2 and save onto DVD and then later go into Vegas 6 and go to 24p?? I don't know too much about this stuff and I am learning as I go.....

Anyhelp would be appreciated. You guys make me jealous who know all of the answers!!
Dean

David Jimerson · April 25th, 2006, 01:10 PM

You can covert 60i footage to 24p with Vegas 6 (and 5 and 4), yes. But don't use the "frame" mode on the Canon. You will not like the results if you convert.

By "file," I assume you mean a video file? Merely saving your project without rendering doesn't do anything for you, because Vegas is non-destructive. It doesn't do anything to the video files themselves. If you want to edit and then work with what you edited, you need to render. A saved project is just a file which Vegas opens within itself; it's not a video file.

If you intend to edit anything later, don't render to MPEG. MPEG is a dandy delivery format, but it's really not something you want to edit with if you have a choice. If you're going to edit later, print back to tape or render as a DV AVI file. This will not only preserve maximum quality, but it compresses every frame individually, whereas with MPEG, it compresses 1 frame, and then for the next several frames, it only saves what's DIFFERENT compared to the first frame. (This is called a GOP or "group of pictures.") Then it repeats the same process over and over. This "interframe" compression is not ideal for frame-accurate editing.

As long as what you render from Studio is 60i DV AVI, you'll have no problems converting it to 24p later.

But remember, if you're going to convert to 24p later, you need to shoot like you're shooting in 24p, which means you need to move the camera sloooooowly.

I'd imagine that the VF file is just a DV AVI file. It should be about 210 MB in size for every minute. Is this about what you're seeing?

Edward Troxel · April 25th, 2006, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean Orewiler

I'm a little confused on how I should do my workflow here. I am shooting a movie, and I'm in the Vegas mode so I can get a continuous file from each tape. I want to break it up into clips in the trimmer and save each take into particular folders, but I don't know how to save them and paste them into the folder for future reference.

Also, should I keep the file a VF or can I render it and then use it later to cut up or add into my timeline...If I render before hand, will I have to render it again? Or does it need the whole project to be kept in VF until the final moment of rendering and transporting to DVD architech??

Please respond as soon as you can...I'm shooting in 2 weeks.
Thanks and greetings from Indiana.
Dean

Are you SURE the captured file is a "VF" file? Or is that the PROJECT file (ala Video Factory?)

David Jimerson · April 25th, 2006, 06:27 PM

Oh, jeez, I didn't even think of that. A hundred things about the post are now crystal-clear.

Dean Orewiler · April 26th, 2006, 04:40 AM

when I shoot video and then capture it - I get a different file - it's watchable with movie maker when I edit - but If I was to "render as" each days video, it makes me save as a mpeg1 or 2 or avi, or other types that you mention you shouldn't edit in later... So would it be easier NOT TO render until I was about ready to burn the ENTIRE movie that I edited on the timeline? Should I just keep the individual clips in the explorer as video project files? I'm still getting that .vf after the project file....

David Jimerson · April 26th, 2006, 08:08 AM

Yes, the project file is the set of instructions you've used on the video files. It doesn't do anything but open inside Vegas and arrange the clips, effects, tracks, etc., as you've decided.

But the VIDEO files are something different. The clips you captured should be .avi files, using DV as the codec. These are the files you want to edit. And if you want to render your work and edit it in something else, then you'll want to render as DV .avi files.

You don't need to render at the end of each session, no. You really only need to render at the end of the project.

Dean Orewiler · April 27th, 2006, 10:02 AM

Gotcha David - thanks for explaining it in "newbie" terms...I need all of the help I can get. I actually re-read DSE's Vegas Movie Studio + DVD book yesterday, and things are beginning to make sense, along with help from yourself and others. Thanks again!!!!!!!! There are many talented people on this site who really help out the editing community. Thanks again!
Dean

April 24th, 2006, 12:40 PM	#1
Dean Orewiler Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 186	To Render or Not to Render... I'm a little confused on how I should do my workflow here. I am shooting a movie, and I'm in the Vegas mode so I can get a continuous file from each tape. I want to break it up into clips in the trimmer and save each take into particular folders, but I don't know how to save them and paste them into the folder for future reference. Also, should I keep the file a VF or can I render it and then use it later to cut up or add into my timeline...If I render before hand, will I have to render it again? Or does it need the whole project to be kept in VF until the final moment of rendering and transporting to DVD architech?? Please respond as soon as you can...I'm shooting in 2 weeks. Thanks and greetings from Indiana. Dean

April 25th, 2006, 05:53 AM	#2
David Jimerson Jubal 28 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 872	OK, I'll bite -- what's a "VF"? Your best bet is to have scene detection enabled on capture -- Vegas will create separate clips for each time you stop/start the camera. You'll have the option of deciding which folder to save the clips in. Look under "disk management" in the capture program. __________________ www.wrightsvillebeachstudios.com

April 25th, 2006, 06:00 AM	#3
Steven Davis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 3,065	[QUOTE=David Jimerson]OK, I'll bite -- what's a "VF"? QUOTE] well, I certainly feel less ignorant.... :} __________________ What happens if I push the 'Red' button?

April 25th, 2006, 10:10 AM	#6
David Jimerson Jubal 28 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 872	Thanks! Movie Maker does not edit 24p. That doesn't mean you can't use a 24p camera; you just can't edit in 24p. What kind of a camera are you capturing from? __________________ www.wrightsvillebeachstudios.com

April 25th, 2006, 01:10 PM	#8
David Jimerson Jubal 28 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 872	You can covert 60i footage to 24p with Vegas 6 (and 5 and 4), yes. But don't use the "frame" mode on the Canon. You will not like the results if you convert. By "file," I assume you mean a video file? Merely saving your project without rendering doesn't do anything for you, because Vegas is non-destructive. It doesn't do anything to the video files themselves. If you want to edit and then work with what you edited, you need to render. A saved project is just a file which Vegas opens within itself; it's not a video file. If you intend to edit anything later, don't render to MPEG. MPEG is a dandy delivery format, but it's really not something you want to edit with if you have a choice. If you're going to edit later, print back to tape or render as a DV AVI file. This will not only preserve maximum quality, but it compresses every frame individually, whereas with MPEG, it compresses 1 frame, and then for the next several frames, it only saves what's DIFFERENT compared to the first frame. (This is called a GOP or "group of pictures.") Then it repeats the same process over and over. This "interframe" compression is not ideal for frame-accurate editing. As long as what you render from Studio is 60i DV AVI, you'll have no problems converting it to 24p later. But remember, if you're going to convert to 24p later, you need to shoot like you're shooting in 24p, which means you need to move the camera sloooooowly. I'd imagine that the VF file is just a DV AVI file. It should be about 210 MB in size for every minute. Is this about what you're seeing? __________________ www.wrightsvillebeachstudios.com

April 25th, 2006, 09:14 AM	#4
Dean Orewiler Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 186	I'm not sure what version you guys have of Vegas, but I'm getting a VF file after I capture video. I'm assuming it means: Vegas File....not sure, I didn't design it. Yes, I know it sounds ignorant, but I'm new to this and I'm going by the extension at the end of the file.. It's a VF file until I render it and then it turns into a MPEG-1 or 2 depending which one I choose. I have Vegas Movie Maker Platinum + DVD. Thanks for your advice David..I'll give it a try.

April 25th, 2006, 09:27 AM	#5
Dean Orewiler Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 186	Great video tutorial David !! Now, does my version edit in 24P???

April 25th, 2006, 12:00 PM	#7
Dean Orewiler Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 186	Hi David: I'm shooting from an XL1S...so, I'm not getting a true 24p anyhow...is that correct? What if I upgrade to Vegas 6 from Movie Maker later? Is that possible, and then I could take the video footage in at a later time and do the 24p conversion. We want to enter our movie into festivals, so there is a possibility that is will later be converted to film. If I take a file (after I edit in timeline) and save it (without rendering) can I later in Vegas 6 go to 24p? Or should I render it in a MPEG-2 and save onto DVD and then later go into Vegas 6 and go to 24p?? I don't know too much about this stuff and I am learning as I go..... Anyhelp would be appreciated. You guys make me jealous who know all of the answers!! Dean

April 25th, 2006, 06:27 PM	#10
David Jimerson Jubal 28 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 872	Oh, jeez, I didn't even think of that. A hundred things about the post are now crystal-clear. __________________ www.wrightsvillebeachstudios.com

April 26th, 2006, 04:40 AM	#11
Dean Orewiler Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 186	when I shoot video and then capture it - I get a different file - it's watchable with movie maker when I edit - but If I was to "render as" each days video, it makes me save as a mpeg1 or 2 or avi, or other types that you mention you shouldn't edit in later... So would it be easier NOT TO render until I was about ready to burn the ENTIRE movie that I edited on the timeline? Should I just keep the individual clips in the explorer as video project files? I'm still getting that .vf after the project file....

April 26th, 2006, 08:08 AM	#12
David Jimerson Jubal 28 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 872	Yes, the project file is the set of instructions you've used on the video files. It doesn't do anything but open inside Vegas and arrange the clips, effects, tracks, etc., as you've decided. But the VIDEO files are something different. The clips you captured should be .avi files, using DV as the codec. These are the files you want to edit. And if you want to render your work and edit it in something else, then you'll want to render as DV .avi files. You don't need to render at the end of each session, no. You really only need to render at the end of the project. __________________ www.wrightsvillebeachstudios.com

April 27th, 2006, 10:02 AM	#13
Dean Orewiler Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 186	Thanks David and gang: Gotcha David - thanks for explaining it in "newbie" terms...I need all of the help I can get. I actually re-read DSE's Vegas Movie Studio + DVD book yesterday, and things are beginning to make sense, along with help from yourself and others. Thanks again!!!!!!!! There are many talented people on this site who really help out the editing community. Thanks again! Dean