Audio Micing Church Choir - Page 4 at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > All Things Audio

All Things Audio
Everything Audio, from acquisition to postproduction.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old December 25th, 2017, 09:07 AM   #46
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: LOWESTOFT - UK
Posts: 2,136
Re: Audio Micing Church Choir

I thought about this topic watching the Christmas Day Carol Service from Kings College in Cambridge - and it's a wonderful building, but one where you would not want to listen to a single person speaking - the acoustics are wonderful for this kind of thing and sounded beautiful on the TV. Plugging in my stage in-ears I was surprised at how confused the actual stereo field was. As it was a TV product, clearly stereo imaging meaning very obvious miking was out, and the physical distance from organ to the choir meant all kinds of wonderful timing errors - so bad that the conductors arms rarely coincided with the real timing. The audio lip-sync with the choristers was clearly the important sync element - so this was where the effort went, and although I clearly don't know for certain, I think the organ was recorded in stereo and blended in - which messed up the soundfield. If you close your eyes you couldn't really determine which direction you were hearing - as in a left right split down the length of the building with the choir on both sides, or the left right line running at 90 degrees. It sounded gorgeous because the music and the building were in harmony with each other - but it was a very manufactured sound. They did it very well, but I wondered how they would have done the same service if it was for radio?
Paul R Johnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 25th, 2017, 12:18 PM   #47
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Seattle WA
Posts: 967
Re: Audio Micing Church Choir

Hey Paul! - really enjoyed your analytical critique review, and after doing this project I’m in the same mode. I’ll never be able to watch a program like this again without searching for the mics and looking for the little missteps.

Critique isn’t all new to me, though, ‘cuz watching the musical Oklahoma with the passenger train surrounded by attacking Indians whilst passengers were singing with arrows flying though the passenger car windows didn’t seem all that real. That was obvious but audio critique requires more attention to detail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson View Post
I thought about this topic watching the Christmas Day Carol Service from Kings College in Cambridge -
Thanks for the name - I'll have to do a search for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson View Post
- the acoustics are wonderful for this kind of thing and sounded beautiful on the TV. Plugging in my stage in-ears I was surprised at how confused the actual stereo field was. As it was a TV product,
“It’s all about money.” When they set up and do this every year it should hopefully make the production a bit easier, and newer technology helps. The also had a sprinkling of English songs possibly to appeal to a wider audience, but then there are many University courses being taught in English.

I explained to others in the house, here, about the mic locations (and got them looking for them too), and explained how fast sound travels (does not travel at the speed of light), and the difficulties with syncing. Don’t know if it ruined their viewing experience or not, didn’t seem to, though.

All in all, it was an enjoyable program. Started to watch the 2016 version but actually liked the older 2008 version better. Oh, and the women here zeroed in on the soloist’s red dress (they liked it).

After doing this project I'll never watch something like this the same way again!
Edit: Found some videos from King’s College, f.e.: O Holy Night - Carols from King’s 2017
Very nicely done.

Awesome chapel! Also noticed the design of the ceiling - looked like a challenge also for the builders. For our American readers: (Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choir_of_King%27s) _College,_Cambridge Founded in 1441 by Henry VI of England and it has an interesting history. “Particularly long reverb”

On the video side, it is also interesting what various videographers do to avoid a constant wide shot, for example, a slow zoom in and pan across the choir then a zoom out, such as that done by Steven Reid in his video. This particular technique would be especially useful when sharing the video with chorister members later. (Learning something all the time!)

Last edited by John Nantz; December 25th, 2017 at 02:48 PM. Reason: Added material
John Nantz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 25th, 2017, 03:07 PM   #48
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: LOWESTOFT - UK
Posts: 2,136
Re: Audio Micing Church Choir

It's a great and wonderful building - and really old. There is a website for information about the building and when it was built.

Chapel | King's College, Cambridge

For music, almost anything sounds great.

There's a youtube video of the organ where you can hear the amazingly long reverb tail and the acoustic mess (though nice sounding) this causes to music that has fast articulations.
Paul R Johnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 25th, 2017, 08:16 PM   #49
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Salem, Oregon
Posts: 424
Re: Audio Micing Church Choir

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Nantz View Post
On the video side, it is also interesting what various videographers do to avoid a constant wide shot, for example, a slow zoom in and pan across the choir then a zoom out, such as that done by Steven Reid in his video. This particular technique would be especially useful when sharing the video with chorister members later. (Learning something all the time!)
I assure you that the genesis of my shooting 'technique' resides solely in the limitations of my using just one camera. I generally disdain zooms and pans while rolling, but they are preferable to the monotony of a locked-off wide shot. As a one man band, I can only do so much. In contrast, the splendid video of King's College you posted above is obviously the work of a team of videographers and several cameras, some of which appear to be unmanned. The few pans and tilts are rather tastefully achieved, I think.

Merry Christmas!
__________________
www.CinemActionFilms.com
Steven Reid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 26th, 2017, 09:21 AM   #50
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 136
Re: Audio Micing Church Choir

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson View Post
I thought about this topic watching the Christmas Day Carol Service from Kings College in Cambridge - and it's a wonderful building, but one where you would not want to listen to a single person speaking - the acoustics are wonderful for this kind of thing and sounded beautiful on the TV. Plugging in my stage in-ears I was surprised at how confused the actual stereo field was. As it was a TV product, clearly stereo imaging meaning very obvious miking was out, and the physical distance from organ to the choir meant all kinds of wonderful timing errors - so bad that the conductors arms rarely coincided with the real timing. The audio lip-sync with the choristers was clearly the important sync element - so this was where the effort went, and although I clearly don't know for certain, I think the organ was recorded in stereo and blended in - which messed up the soundfield. If you close your eyes you couldn't really determine which direction you were hearing - as in a left right split down the length of the building with the choir on both sides, or the left right line running at 90 degrees. It sounded gorgeous because the music and the building were in harmony with each other - but it was a very manufactured sound. They did it very well, but I wondered how they would have done the same service if it was for radio?
The PBS station I used to be on staff at did a presentation from Kings College a number of years ago. We sent representatives from our station ( TPT in Minnesota) to oversee the recording and video taping, then did the post production in our facility. It was a nationally broadcast program. The big challenge was the lighting as we were only allowed to use the available light from the candles in the processional and video cameras weren't as sensitive as they are now. I remember it sounding really nice, and in spite of the limitations it looked great too. I looked for it on line and couldn't find it. It was called Christmas at Kings and was recorded about twenty years ago.
Bernie Beaudry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 26th, 2017, 11:26 AM   #51
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: LOWESTOFT - UK
Posts: 2,136
Re: Audio Micing Church Choir

One of my earliest broadcast jobs was lighting (well, in truth at that time it meant heaving huge quantities of kit an and out of locations) and the cameras in the 80s needed huge amounts of light to get decent depth of field. Narrow DoF then was the enemy, unlike today. At many churches there was nowhere to put the lihts and no power available for them either - and the gaffer had an assortment of cut down nails he routinely swapped for the fuses!
Paul R Johnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 5th, 2018, 07:34 AM   #52
Trustee
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 1,178
Re: Audio Micing Church Choir

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Beaudry View Post
The PBS station I used to be on staff at did a presentation from Kings College a number of years ago. We sent representatives from our station ( TPT in Minnesota) to oversee the recording and video taping, then did the post production in our facility. It was a nationally broadcast program. The big challenge was the lighting as we were only allowed to use the available light from the candles in the processional and video cameras weren't as sensitive as they are now. I remember it sounding really nice, and in spite of the limitations it looked great too. I looked for it on line and couldn't find it. It was called Christmas at Kings and was recorded about twenty years ago.
I came across this documentary on YouTube last year about the Christmas Lessons and Carols service from the chapel at Kings College Cambridge. There are a few technical details in the doco and I found this one quite fascinating:

So the choir can read their music, there's a light bulb under the candle and the light comes down. And what the first lighting director and I devised was to put in a ring to raise the candle an inch or so up so that we could have a window [with diffusion] so that light could shine out from the bulb towards their [choir] faces. But it means the light (lighting their face) is coming from where you expect it. -- David Kremer, Director

Ref: Technical discussion starts at 25:18 See specific quote at 26:44

Richard Crowley is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Texas Media Systems
(512) 440-1400
Austin, TX

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > All Things Audio

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:29 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network