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Old October 8th, 2007, 05:46 AM   #1
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PAL only please! Rendering 25p projects with proper colour!

I've read the hundreds of threads on the subject of rendering HDV for standard DVD viewing, and most people experience similar problems, shoddy image quality and washed out colours. There are dozens of suggestions and ideas from people with no problems but most are from NTSC land.

Now, I've also experienced the same irritating effects using many different methods. I'm currently wasting hours and hours testing out a one minute clip from a current project to see which one yields the best results. None have satisfied me yet. Everything looks pastey and wishy washy!

If anyone in PAL world can save me from continuing this arduous path I'd be forever grateful. My current project is;

HDV (from GYHD200e) converted to AVI with Cineform NEOHD
Project settings are PAL25p

I am monitoring video on a broadcast monitor, on 2 x 20" widescreen monitors and into a tv screen so I'm aware of the colour quality during edit. But where oh where does it all go wrong on its way to DVD using Architecht!???

Also, I'd love to hear what PAL Cineform and Vegas users are doing to get the best results.

Cheers
Stuart
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Old October 8th, 2007, 07:44 AM   #2
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Stuart,

When you check the Advanced Video tab settings in any template, you'll notice that all (even those PAL ones) have NTSC as the video format - well, SCS is an US company, so they don't seem to care much about us, PAL users.

Just be sure to manually change this into PAL and save a new template. This can be done for all kinds of rendering, except the Blu-Ray from timeline which unfortunately is not customizable. I have written about it in this thread:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=105003

Even the 50i templates seem to produce Blu-ray disks with NTSC colours, which look washed out. I have complained about it to SCS Support and am waiting for an answer.
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Old October 8th, 2007, 08:06 AM   #3
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Washed out colors? This is not a PAL issue. Check your color levels.
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Old October 8th, 2007, 08:26 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seun Osewa View Post
Washed out colors? This is not a PAL issue. Check your color levels.
With color levels (and ALL other parameters equal), rendering into HDV or Blu-Ray using 'NTSC' as the 'Video format' value in the template's 'Advanced video' tab, will result in much less saturated colours than with that parametr set to PAL, or Component.

How do you explain that?
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Old October 8th, 2007, 10:45 AM   #5
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I'm currently trying to figure out how to achieve best overall colours while maintaing details in clipping areas. While I do understand each of the many factors involved on its own (like 8bit versus 32bit processing and the gamma used, studioRGB or computerRGB space adopted, level setting for the highs, video format for rendered output, viewing device calibration etc) - when it comes to educated use of all of them acting together, I'm completely at lost.

Here are 4 grabs, comparing the different trial outputs to the original m2t clip (the picture names are self-explanatory; the "Glenn's curve remapping superwhites to 235 limits" is discussed here:

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/...sageID=553488).

One can easily see that the original m2t clip with the 8bit video processing preserves most details in the bright window area...
Attached Thumbnails
PAL only please! Rendering 25p projects with proper colour!-oryiginal-m2t-8bit.jpg   PAL only please! Rendering 25p projects with proper colour!-oryginal-m2t-32bit.jpg  

PAL only please! Rendering 25p projects with proper colour!-studionrgb-computerrgb-32bit.jpg   PAL only please! Rendering 25p projects with proper colour!-glenn-curve-235-remapping-32bit.jpg  

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Old October 8th, 2007, 02:18 PM   #6
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thanks Piotr
It is indeed frustrating that Vegas is primarily an NTSC system. Sometimes It seems like PAL support was an add on! This will upset the NTSC people here but we have a saying in the UK broadcast industry

Never The Same Colour (twice)

Read into that what you will! Sorry for causing offence to anyone in the US! We have another one for SECAM but that's another story!

I'd be interested to hear your results for colour and detail in clipping areas. That's primarily where I notice colour errors most. However, after burning a few tests today from the timeline to MPEG2 stream, the results were better than my last trial. I'm confused! Nothing is different.

I've tried altering things like 2 pass and none of them seem to make any discernible difference once it gets onto tv.

I'm keen to hear a foolproof way of maintaining colour from tape to tv, but I can't help thinking there isn't one!
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Old October 8th, 2007, 02:27 PM   #7
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It took me some times to figure out how to see the original image file names... you have to mouse-over the image and let the mouse cursor idle over the image.

Ok, back to the topic at hand...

1- My color curves assume that the video decodes to studio RGB levels. This assumption is wrong for most formats in Vegas 8 / 32-bit (e.g. m2t). To keep things simple I would avoid the 32-bit mode.
Otherwise consult the table:
http://glennchan.info/articles/vegas...or/v8color.htm

2- For an 8-bit project:
The m2t decodes to studio RGB levels.
Vegas's MPEG-2 encoder will want to see studio RGB levels (in 8-bit mode project).
So no levels conversion is necessary per se.
Just encode the MPEG-2 straight from Vegas. This video will not look correct in Vegas' video preview. This is ok. It will look correct when played back in a DVD player or DVD player software like powerDVD, winDVD, etc.

2b- HDV cameras will intentionally record information above white level. Normally this information usually ends up being clipped. You can map the superwhites into legal range to get at that detail. One of my color curves does this.

3- Some other info on why it's probably not due to some difference between PAL and NTSC:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/newreply....ote=1&p=756005
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Old October 8th, 2007, 02:43 PM   #8
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Thanks Glenn for your precious comments. I'm now trying to read your article, however the page you're linking to cannot open...

1. Regarding this and your answer to my doubts in another thread, I understand that to use your colour curve for remapping the HDV superwhites into 235 range while preserving details, I should keep the project in 8bit, right? If so, I'll give it a try - but please tell me how I should modify the remapping curve so that it doesn't change anything BUT the superwhites - remove the 3 lower-left points and make the curve straight for lows?

2. With all due respect, I'd stick to my observation that all things being equal, the result of rendering into NTSC as the colour format in the Advanced Video tab of any Vegas MPEG-2 template will produce quite different results, than with this option set to PAL or Component. For this reason, I prepared my own template versions with PAL as the format giving reacher colours; the only problem is Blu-Ray from timeline, which doesn't offer configrable templates; what work-around would you suggest fro that? I tried explicitely applying "Studio RGB to ComputerRGB" to the whole project before blu-ray rendering, but I know it's not the same thing.

PS. Your articles page is available from the link at your home page, but NOT using the direct link you provided here! It beats me why...
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Old October 8th, 2007, 03:10 PM   #9
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The superwhite-->legal range color curve should be in here:
http://glennchan.info/Proofs/forums/...y-presets2.veg

(There are a bunch of color curves in there... grab the one that maps superwhites into legal range.)

You don't need to modify existing ones.

Quote:
2. With all due respect, I'd stick to my observation that all things being equal, the result of rendering into NTSC as the colour format in the Advanced Video tab of any Vegas MPEG-2 template will produce quite different results, than with this option set to PAL or Component. For this reason, I prepared my own template versions with PAL as the format giving reacher colours; the only problem is Blu-Ray from timeline, which doesn't offer configrable templates; what work-around would you suggest fro that? I tried explicitely applying "Studio RGB to ComputerRGB" to the whole project before blu-ray rendering, but I know it's not the same thing.
I'm not seeing that in my version of Vegas.

(Though it's possible you're encountering a bug I'm not encountering.)

Quote:
PS. Your articles page is available from the link at your home page, but NOT using the direct link you provided here! It beats me why...
The link works for me. Not sure why it's not working for you.
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Old October 8th, 2007, 03:19 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Chan View Post
I'm not seeing that in my version of Vegas.

(Though it's possible you're encountering a bug I'm not encountering.)
Hmm... Seems like we're using the same Vegas version, so the only difference is that my m2t clips are shot with the PAL version of the HVR-V1E. Could it be that it influences how it decodes in Vegas, or how it's encoded in Vegas, when compared to your NTSC clips?

Piotr
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