Liquid Edition 6 vs. Premiere Pro 1.5? at DVinfo.net

Tim Borek · July 20th, 2005, 01:52 PM

I'm ready to switch NLEs. I've been using MediaStudio Pro for a few years, but I'm tired of the software bugs, exhausting patch/upgrade procedures, and poor Ulead tech support.

I'm ready to spend $500 on either the ADS Pyro Pro bundle (includes PPro 1.5, Audition, and Encore DVD) or Pinnacle Liquid Edition 6. I will mainly be editing DV25. I want realtime previews via Firewire but don't want to invest in any additional hardware to get decent performance.

I will also consider Avid Xpress DV 4.6 if it lets you preview externally. I'm NOT interested in Vegas right now. I've read about it tons and do not feel it's the NLE for me, so please limit the discussion to LE 6 and PPro 1.5.

System specs:
3 GHz Pentium 4 w/Hyper Threading
1GB DDR400 dual-channel RAM
Intel 865-based motherboard w/built-in Firewire port and on-board AC97 audio
Nvidia FX5200 dual-head display card
Dual 120GB SATA 7200 rpm hard drives
350W power supply

Kevin Shaw · July 20th, 2005, 04:17 PM

Tim: if you want realtime previews via firewire, the most effective solution available for that is arguably Canopus Edius. In regards to the Premiere Pro bundle versus Pinnacle LE, I'd personally pick the Adobe solution for a variety of reasons, including the fact that Adobe is still a major player while Pinnacle has been bought ought by Avid (so the future of LE is in question). I've also used LE and didn't find it all that impressive, but some people seem to really like it. Best thing to do is to get the demo versions of both programs and try them for yourself, because that's the only way to really figure out which one you'll like better.

George Ellis · July 20th, 2005, 06:46 PM

Counterpoint - LE 6.1 is relatively bug-free and support still exists. Even after support is gone, it will still be a good program for a few years.

I use it for DV and the workflow is fairly easy once you learn where everything is (a common issue in all advanced NLEs.) Right now, I am trying to figure out how to do WMV-HD 720p from 5MB digital stills for a Media Center 'demo' using Ken Burns style moves. Not sure it is the best tool yet, but I have something working.

Dan Euritt · July 22nd, 2005, 08:05 PM

i worked hard trying to get le 6 working properly, but it proved to be quite a problem... take a good look at the pinnacle bulletin boards before making a decision.

Peter Jefferson · July 23rd, 2005, 03:31 AM

i absolutely DESPISE teh LE databasing system..
before u install it, make sure you runa system restore, as what it does to the behaviour of your system may aggravate you.
Me, personally, i hate the idea of a program dictating to me what media files are associated with it..
if i have a photoshop image, i want it to remain as such, i DONT want pinnacle to hijack it.. all your file extensions are manipulated (without the choice of turning it off) during install, so basically if you have ay media on your system, be aware that LE will take ownership of them.. even without your knowledge..

Then theres the databasing issue which when u capture fotage within LE, and you call it car1 (as an example) car 1 will be available in LE only.. go into explorer and you will have knightmares trying to find that media. your "car1" is actaull file number (with a file name of ) 138563828.avi
and when working with hundreds of clips, previewing anywhere other than liquid is a nightmare..
Thats jsut one gripe.. i could go on but i wont..

the adobe bundle kicks ass.. however audio tools shine only with the use of audition, within Vegas, u can do almost everything audition can do and more (for eg, audition cant automate a surround sound pan while tweaking the eq... )

Edius is also a good system.. taking the best of all the NLE's it still ahs some issues, and i have issues with the way it delivers.. without procoder, edius will give you headaches.. Edius alos carries teh same stormfx that youd find on a storm card.. really powerful filters, if a bit dated (IMO) but manipulation is brilliant.

Prem PRo.. well.. lots can be said... its a good system, however i persoanlly dont like the myriad of menus i need to get through to get a task done, when i can do a 2 click step or run a script in Vegas to do that same job...
You also wont get better slowmotion on any NLE that what youd find in Vegas.. i could go on about vegas but you didnt want that..

Avid is good, if a bit overpriced... filters are a little thin, but for straight cut work, its a brilliant tool.. i persoanlly have no need for it apart from when i have to deliver to a network or when im working with DVCPro50, but apart from that, i do most of my cutting in Vegas anyway..

lots to pick from... take ur time and learn them all.. thats what i did and now im greatful that if i need a particular task done, i can just jump into that app and do it..

George Ellis · July 24th, 2005, 07:14 PM

Liquid 6.1 does not associate files with the application (neither did 4.5, 5.0, 5.5, 6.0). LE also does not scan the system for files to 'own' nor does it create file associations that it then hijacks. Never seen this and have never seen anyone on the Pinnacle forums report this.

Liquid does create unique reel ids for files. No, it is not user friendly names, but if you want a file to use outside of the system, you use the export or fuse options. By default, the files used to be DIF files, but now you can specify.

Also, in 6, you can link or copy a file as part of the media import process.

Peter Jefferson · July 25th, 2005, 10:13 AM

"Liquid 6.1 does not associate files with the application (neither did 4.5, 5.0, 5.5, 6.0). LE also does not scan the system for files to 'own' nor does it create file associations that it then hijacks. Never seen this and have never seen anyone on the Pinnacle forums report this."

I beg to differ.. i ran a system restore after all my associations to media were linked to LE6. I was running the full version before it was released and asked the Pinnacle support team about this and they said it was part of the install.
I uninstalled then ran a system restore to recover my previous settings.
I stl have the pinnacle codecs within my system even though i dont want them there. I also hav the plugin registries still on the system. theyre not playing havoc so im not too phased about that, but i despise any application which changes associations without prior selection. Corel do this as well..
If i have an mpg on my machine, that mpg will retain its extension, however the default opening application is Liquid.. this i DONT want.. and there is no option to turn that off.. Ive built maybe 7 LE6 machines from memory and theyve all done this...

George Ellis · July 26th, 2005, 03:48 AM

Peter, you and I are half right. M2V files show up as Fast links. MPG and MPEG files are left alone. I now remember why M2Vs are tagged too. Liquid assumes they are HD files and can edit them natively either way.

Dan Euritt · July 26th, 2005, 03:16 PM

the mpg file extension can be associated with whatever program you want it to be associated with, its done from within windows itself... so you should be able to change that.

if you are saying that le changes the file association every time that you run it, you should be able to shut off that function within le itself.

Robert Martens · July 26th, 2005, 08:04 PM

Can't comment on much else, but I would like to say something in defense of LE's file system:

"Then theres the databasing issue which when u capture fotage within LE, and you call it car1 (as an example) car 1 will be available in LE only.. go into explorer and you will have knightmares trying to find that media. your "car1" is actaull file number (with a file name of ) 138563828.avi
and when working with hundreds of clips, previewing anywhere other than liquid is a nightmare..
Thats jsut one gripe.. i could go on but i wont.. "

To be fair, the file name is not just a random number, nor a sequential assignment based on the order in which the clips are imported--it's based on the timecode of the clip. So a clip named, for example, 16302707D 17204806D V0.AVI (an actual file on my system right now) really does mean something. The first number is the Mark In of the clip, in this case 16 hours, 30 minutes, 27 seconds, 07 frames, followed by either a D or an N, indicating Drop frame or Non drop frame timecode, respectively. The second number is the Mark Out, and the "V0" tells you what Video track you're dealing with. A bit annoying, I suppose, but I think Pinnacle's line of thought is that people will be dedicating an entire system to their software, so "they won't need to worry" about the file names. Or something.

There's plenty more to be said about the reliability of the software, and the reputation of Pinnacle itself (or lack of both), but I'll leave that to Google. :) Might want to take a gander at the liquideditionplanet.com forums to get an idea what kind of things to expect from LE. They have far more patience than I.

Peter Jefferson · July 26th, 2005, 09:29 PM

hey rob, i understnad that the file names serve their purpose, but for those working with multiple apps for the one job (for example, id be using Vegas to edit, Combustion to composite, Particle illusion and Alam for effects, blufftitler for openGL 3d titles, so to do a quick output of a paticular clip can turn into a nightmare..

i like Liquid, dont get me wrong, I love the fact that it can do all this background rendering and take advantage of my gfx card for filter and effects work, but its workflow and the way this databasing system has been set up could do with a bit of work..

Stephen L. Noe · August 10th, 2005, 02:14 AM

Hi,

I have both programs and I think once you start cutting on Edition you will not want to use Premiere.

As far as media managment is concerned with Edition, it takes some getting used to but Edition only associates m2v and EDL files to the app AFAIK.

PS Avid has confirmed that Liquid Edition is staying so welcome to Avid but Edition will continue developement on into the future.

Tim Borek · August 10th, 2005, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe

Hi,

I have both programs and I think once you start cutting on Edition you will not want to use Premiere.

Thanks for the straightforward response, Stephen.

Best Buy (web site only) is selling LE 6 for $499 + $200 mail-in rebate this week only. Oh yeah -- free shipping too. That's awfully tempting! That leaves me three days to install my demo and decide if I like it enough. I've been watching the free Edius Pro 3 training DVD that comes with the Edius 3 demo, and I'm not that impressed with the workflow of Edius 3. For example, to tweak a transition, you have to go select the transition in the timeline, then to the Information window, then double-click the transition name to open up its properties. In MediaStudio Pro 7, I can change transition properties just by double-clicking the transition in the timeline (granted, it's A/B editing instead of single-track). Okay, this is getting off topic....

Thanks again for the Liquid Edition review. Can you be more specific and tell me what you like about Edition more than Premiere Pro 1.5?

What

Stephen L. Noe · August 10th, 2005, 05:21 PM

What I like is the straight forward editing environment. The Liquid Edition community is very helpful if you don't know answers. It'll seem strange at first coming from Premiere but there is a Premiere Detox video and some stellar training videos that will get you up to speed fast. I do recommend getting some sort of break out box for RT preview to monitor. The Liquid 6.1 price you've listed is really too hard to pass up IMO. If you need a break out box for preview you can get a movieBox Deluxe and be in real time with your clients sitting next to you. Another thing is that you'll never loose an edit because of the instant save technology. Some other highlights are Dolby Digital creator 5.1 is built into the interface. The mixer was lifted from Wavelab so it is top notch. DVD creation right from the timeline. Xsend to just about any application. HDV native editing. Etc...

Here are some videos you'll like:

Paul Mitton's training videos are first rate; Click here

and

Pinnacles own training video are great; Click here (especially search for Premiere on this page)

I myself have made a dozen or so 'seat of my pants' training video's for forum members who have questions about how it all works. The single biggest thing that took me to Edition was that it's stable. The second thing was that I never liked the little windows and controls in Premiere. It's just me but I've never really been a fan of Premiere and I keep it around because I know it.

anyway, good luck hombre, and if you get a notion come over to the Edition forum and ask all you want.

Dan Euritt · August 11th, 2005, 10:22 AM

will you be making dvd's? unless something has changed recently, i believe that the mpeg2 encoder in le still does not have 2-pass capability... the overall dvd creation process is probably better in premiere than le.

July 20th, 2005, 01:52 PM	#1
Tim Borek Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Westfield, IN Posts: 353	Liquid Edition 6 vs. Premiere Pro 1.5? I'm ready to switch NLEs. I've been using MediaStudio Pro for a few years, but I'm tired of the software bugs, exhausting patch/upgrade procedures, and poor Ulead tech support. I'm ready to spend $500 on either the ADS Pyro Pro bundle (includes PPro 1.5, Audition, and Encore DVD) or Pinnacle Liquid Edition 6. I will mainly be editing DV25. I want realtime previews via Firewire but don't want to invest in any additional hardware to get decent performance. I will also consider Avid Xpress DV 4.6 if it lets you preview externally. I'm NOT interested in Vegas right now. I've read about it tons and do not feel it's the NLE for me, so please limit the discussion to LE 6 and PPro 1.5. System specs: 3 GHz Pentium 4 w/Hyper Threading 1GB DDR400 dual-channel RAM Intel 865-based motherboard w/built-in Firewire port and on-board AC97 audio Nvidia FX5200 dual-head display card Dual 120GB SATA 7200 rpm hard drives 350W power supply

August 10th, 2005, 02:14 AM	#12
Stephen L. Noe Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,214	LE vs. PP 1.5 Hi, I have both programs and I think once you start cutting on Edition you will not want to use Premiere. As far as media managment is concerned with Edition, it takes some getting used to but Edition only associates m2v and EDL files to the app AFAIK. PS Avid has confirmed that Liquid Edition is staying so welcome to Avid but Edition will continue developement on into the future.

July 20th, 2005, 04:17 PM	#2
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	Tim: if you want realtime previews via firewire, the most effective solution available for that is arguably Canopus Edius. In regards to the Premiere Pro bundle versus Pinnacle LE, I'd personally pick the Adobe solution for a variety of reasons, including the fact that Adobe is still a major player while Pinnacle has been bought ought by Avid (so the future of LE is in question). I've also used LE and didn't find it all that impressive, but some people seem to really like it. Best thing to do is to get the demo versions of both programs and try them for yourself, because that's the only way to really figure out which one you'll like better.

July 20th, 2005, 06:46 PM	#3
George Ellis Trustee Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Suwanee, GA Posts: 1,241	Counterpoint - LE 6.1 is relatively bug-free and support still exists. Even after support is gone, it will still be a good program for a few years. I use it for DV and the workflow is fairly easy once you learn where everything is (a common issue in all advanced NLEs.) Right now, I am trying to figure out how to do WMV-HD 720p from 5MB digital stills for a Media Center 'demo' using Ken Burns style moves. Not sure it is the best tool yet, but I have something working.

July 22nd, 2005, 08:05 PM	#4
Dan Euritt Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Carlsbad CA Posts: 1,132	i worked hard trying to get le 6 working properly, but it proved to be quite a problem... take a good look at the pinnacle bulletin boards before making a decision.

July 23rd, 2005, 03:31 AM	#5
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	i absolutely DESPISE teh LE databasing system.. before u install it, make sure you runa system restore, as what it does to the behaviour of your system may aggravate you. Me, personally, i hate the idea of a program dictating to me what media files are associated with it.. if i have a photoshop image, i want it to remain as such, i DONT want pinnacle to hijack it.. all your file extensions are manipulated (without the choice of turning it off) during install, so basically if you have ay media on your system, be aware that LE will take ownership of them.. even without your knowledge.. Then theres the databasing issue which when u capture fotage within LE, and you call it car1 (as an example) car 1 will be available in LE only.. go into explorer and you will have knightmares trying to find that media. your "car1" is actaull file number (with a file name of ) 138563828.avi and when working with hundreds of clips, previewing anywhere other than liquid is a nightmare.. Thats jsut one gripe.. i could go on but i wont.. the adobe bundle kicks ass.. however audio tools shine only with the use of audition, within Vegas, u can do almost everything audition can do and more (for eg, audition cant automate a surround sound pan while tweaking the eq... ) Edius is also a good system.. taking the best of all the NLE's it still ahs some issues, and i have issues with the way it delivers.. without procoder, edius will give you headaches.. Edius alos carries teh same stormfx that youd find on a storm card.. really powerful filters, if a bit dated (IMO) but manipulation is brilliant. Prem PRo.. well.. lots can be said... its a good system, however i persoanlly dont like the myriad of menus i need to get through to get a task done, when i can do a 2 click step or run a script in Vegas to do that same job... You also wont get better slowmotion on any NLE that what youd find in Vegas.. i could go on about vegas but you didnt want that.. Avid is good, if a bit overpriced... filters are a little thin, but for straight cut work, its a brilliant tool.. i persoanlly have no need for it apart from when i have to deliver to a network or when im working with DVCPro50, but apart from that, i do most of my cutting in Vegas anyway.. lots to pick from... take ur time and learn them all.. thats what i did and now im greatful that if i need a particular task done, i can just jump into that app and do it..

July 24th, 2005, 07:14 PM	#6
George Ellis Trustee Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Suwanee, GA Posts: 1,241	Liquid 6.1 does not associate files with the application (neither did 4.5, 5.0, 5.5, 6.0). LE also does not scan the system for files to 'own' nor does it create file associations that it then hijacks. Never seen this and have never seen anyone on the Pinnacle forums report this. Liquid does create unique reel ids for files. No, it is not user friendly names, but if you want a file to use outside of the system, you use the export or fuse options. By default, the files used to be DIF files, but now you can specify. Also, in 6, you can link or copy a file as part of the media import process.

July 25th, 2005, 10:13 AM	#7
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	"Liquid 6.1 does not associate files with the application (neither did 4.5, 5.0, 5.5, 6.0). LE also does not scan the system for files to 'own' nor does it create file associations that it then hijacks. Never seen this and have never seen anyone on the Pinnacle forums report this." I beg to differ.. i ran a system restore after all my associations to media were linked to LE6. I was running the full version before it was released and asked the Pinnacle support team about this and they said it was part of the install. I uninstalled then ran a system restore to recover my previous settings. I stl have the pinnacle codecs within my system even though i dont want them there. I also hav the plugin registries still on the system. theyre not playing havoc so im not too phased about that, but i despise any application which changes associations without prior selection. Corel do this as well.. If i have an mpg on my machine, that mpg will retain its extension, however the default opening application is Liquid.. this i DONT want.. and there is no option to turn that off.. Ive built maybe 7 LE6 machines from memory and theyve all done this...

July 26th, 2005, 03:48 AM	#8
George Ellis Trustee Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Suwanee, GA Posts: 1,241	Peter, you and I are half right. M2V files show up as Fast links. MPG and MPEG files are left alone. I now remember why M2Vs are tagged too. Liquid assumes they are HD files and can edit them natively either way.

July 26th, 2005, 03:16 PM	#9
Dan Euritt Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Carlsbad CA Posts: 1,132	the mpg file extension can be associated with whatever program you want it to be associated with, its done from within windows itself... so you should be able to change that. if you are saying that le changes the file association every time that you run it, you should be able to shut off that function within le itself.

July 26th, 2005, 08:04 PM	#10
Robert Martens Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Miller Place, NY Posts: 820	Can't comment on much else, but I would like to say something in defense of LE's file system: "Then theres the databasing issue which when u capture fotage within LE, and you call it car1 (as an example) car 1 will be available in LE only.. go into explorer and you will have knightmares trying to find that media. your "car1" is actaull file number (with a file name of ) 138563828.avi and when working with hundreds of clips, previewing anywhere other than liquid is a nightmare.. Thats jsut one gripe.. i could go on but i wont.. " To be fair, the file name is not just a random number, nor a sequential assignment based on the order in which the clips are imported--it's based on the timecode of the clip. So a clip named, for example, 16302707D 17204806D V0.AVI (an actual file on my system right now) really does mean something. The first number is the Mark In of the clip, in this case 16 hours, 30 minutes, 27 seconds, 07 frames, followed by either a D or an N, indicating Drop frame or Non drop frame timecode, respectively. The second number is the Mark Out, and the "V0" tells you what Video track you're dealing with. A bit annoying, I suppose, but I think Pinnacle's line of thought is that people will be dedicating an entire system to their software, so "they won't need to worry" about the file names. Or something. There's plenty more to be said about the reliability of the software, and the reputation of Pinnacle itself (or lack of both), but I'll leave that to Google. :) Might want to take a gander at the liquideditionplanet.com forums to get an idea what kind of things to expect from LE. They have far more patience than I.

July 26th, 2005, 09:29 PM	#11
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	hey rob, i understnad that the file names serve their purpose, but for those working with multiple apps for the one job (for example, id be using Vegas to edit, Combustion to composite, Particle illusion and Alam for effects, blufftitler for openGL 3d titles, so to do a quick output of a paticular clip can turn into a nightmare.. i like Liquid, dont get me wrong, I love the fact that it can do all this background rendering and take advantage of my gfx card for filter and effects work, but its workflow and the way this databasing system has been set up could do with a bit of work..

August 10th, 2005, 05:21 PM	#14
Stephen L. Noe Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,214	What I like is the straight forward editing environment. The Liquid Edition community is very helpful if you don't know answers. It'll seem strange at first coming from Premiere but there is a Premiere Detox video and some stellar training videos that will get you up to speed fast. I do recommend getting some sort of break out box for RT preview to monitor. The Liquid 6.1 price you've listed is really too hard to pass up IMO. If you need a break out box for preview you can get a movieBox Deluxe and be in real time with your clients sitting next to you. Another thing is that you'll never loose an edit because of the instant save technology. Some other highlights are Dolby Digital creator 5.1 is built into the interface. The mixer was lifted from Wavelab so it is top notch. DVD creation right from the timeline. Xsend to just about any application. HDV native editing. Etc... Here are some videos you'll like: Paul Mitton's training videos are first rate; Click here and Pinnacles own training video are great; Click here (especially search for Premiere on this page) I myself have made a dozen or so 'seat of my pants' training video's for forum members who have questions about how it all works. The single biggest thing that took me to Edition was that it's stable. The second thing was that I never liked the little windows and controls in Premiere. It's just me but I've never really been a fan of Premiere and I keep it around because I know it. anyway, good luck hombre, and if you get a notion come over to the Edition forum and ask all you want.

August 11th, 2005, 10:22 AM	#15
Dan Euritt Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Carlsbad CA Posts: 1,132	will you be making dvd's? unless something has changed recently, i believe that the mpeg2 encoder in le still does not have 2-pass capability... the overall dvd creation process is probably better in premiere than le.