Panasonic P2HD and Premiere Pro
 

The HVX sounds supersweet. My little site and business is picking up steam, but my biggest concern about acquiring this cam is post. What kind of sick memory and storage are we going to need for uncompressed HD editing? Is it even out there for us prosumers? Sure, Final Cut Pro HD might be the software, but how on earth can I build a machine to edit my footage without dropping another $5-10k? Krikee!

Hmmm...Even a mac mini will edit DVCPRO HD from its internal drive.
and thats $499 and FCP HD is 999$, so for $1498 you can edit footage from the HVX 200. (ok, you will need some more RAM though)

You will need a deck to master your program, but to rent a firewire equipped Aj-1200 is about $200 for a 1/2 day, so thats pretty cheap if you are producing a TV programme.

AvidXpressPro cuts uncompressed HD. You're looking at a fast pc with dual xeons and at least a gig of ram, two even better. You can get the software and a decent system for under five grand.

Good to know! Thanks guys.

EDIT: As a followup, how much storage space should we be talking about? Seems like 1TB for any kind of longer project at least, right?

DVCPRO HD is 100mbs (12.5 MB/s) at 1080p 30 fps or 720p 60 fps.
If you shoot 720p at 24fps its about 5 MB/s.

So a 500GB firewire disk holds about 28 hours of 720p at 24fps.....

Even though a mini will edit it, when it comes to rendering you will soon want a G5. One of those is about $2599 for a fast model.

I forget, isn't it possible to network several computers for a render farm? I forget if that's just for After Effects stuff, but do any NLE's support networked rendering like that?

Serial ATA drives (SATA) are more than fast enough. The latest SATA3 supports up to 300MB through put (or is it 3gigabit, I forget). Plus external firewire will soon be passe as External SATA3 is currently going through certification.

A powerful Wintel based system can be put together forl under 2K with at least 2gigs of the latest fastest ram and a top of the line DX9/10 video card and close to a terabyte of storage. It gets more expensive if you start talking Xeon or Opteron.

Interesting! I built a P4 w/ 2gig of RAM and a 500GB RAID 0 for HDV editing via Cineform; sounds like I won't need to do too much upgrading if I want to go to DVCPRO HD (assuming there's PC-based editing software that'll handle it)... This is helpful info for folks!

maybe premiere pro
 

Anyone thinks that premiere pro will get into dvcpro HD? They adapted HDV (even indepedently from cineform) pretty quickly...

Steven

To my knowledge, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't AVID support it, or is it in their software/hardware combo only types of AVID?

Avid XpressProHD cuts "HD". With or without Mojo.

www.avid.com for the details.

Some of Blackmagic's products may be of interest to you.

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/

-Bon

Keep in mind that uncompressed was necessary for HDCAM editing, but it's not necessary for DVCPRO-HD.

DVCPRO-HD's codec is supported natively by Avid, Apple, and I think Pinnacle. So if you have an editor that supports the codec, the editing experience will basically be the same as that for editing DV. It'll be slower, most likely, because you're pushing around about 5x as many pixels, but the storage requirements aren't much more -- you can store an hour of footage on a 60gb hard disk, so a 300gb hard disk would have five hours of storage (and that's at the full 1080/60i or 720/60p rate; using 720/24p a 300gb hard disk would hold about 13 hours of footage).

The computers are there today, already. I don't think you'll need that much more horsepower to be able to edit comfortably. It should be a lot more responsive than HDV editing is, because each frame is encoded separtely, instead of having to either a) uncompress up to 15 frames to find the frame you're looking for, or b) spend time transcoding to an "editing" codec. DVCPRO-HD is already an editing codec.

barry you can add edius to that list as well...

http://www.canopus.com/US/products/EDIUSPro3/pt_EDIUSPro3_Options.asp


Canopus Codec Option
Optionally available for EDIUS Pro 3 is the Canopus Codec Option Pack, which includes the DVCPRO 50 and new DVCPRO HD software NLE codecs. Developed in collaboration with Panasonic, the Canopus DVCPRO HD codec provides EDIUS Pro 3 with high-quality HD video with full native DVCPRO HD (SMPTE 370M) compliance.

With the Codec Option Pack, EDIUS Pro 3 supports direct HD lossless capture and print–to-tape functions with the Panasonic DVCPRO HD VTR (AJ-HD1200A) in native 1080/60i/50i via any IEEE 1394 OHCI FireWire controller.

Grrr!!! Where is Vegas on this! Well, I've been putting off a FCP switch for a while now... maybe it's finally time...

Kevin,

Just remember switching to FCP is a jump to MAC OS from PC. That may or may not be relevant if you have a lot of legacy programs that won't transfer.

Well, I'd get a machine just for editing... Since all I use now is After FX, Vegas, and DVD Architect (for editing anyways) I assume I'll just find another DVD authorer (or heck, once exported to mpg, I could just still use DVD Architect on the VT [4] machine...

I'm right there with you, Kevin. I *adore* Vegas, but if they don't announce DVCPRO-HD and DVCPRO-50 support, it looks like I'll be in the market for another NLE, whether FCP, Avid Express HD, Edius, I don't know. So part of the NAB venture this month will be to scope out the landscape for editing applications.

I can't *imagine* Vegas not adding support for this though.

I'm in the same boat. I have Adobe Premiere Pro and Adobe hasn't been known for their fast response to customer demands.... which really sucks. Who knows though, maybe these NLEs will announce support at NAB?

Guys,

You have to understand where each companies paradigm comes from. I use Avid, and bought it because it has the best FILM CUTTING capabilities of any NLE. Avid comes to the table from a world of Feature Film cutting and HD editing. They still don't have HDV support, (though it's in the works for this July I believe.) Since they bought Pinnacle, it's not clear if they will use the pinnacle solution or some sort of hybrid solution.

In short, Avid has had HD support early, and will have HDV support later, because, that's what most editors who work with AVID needed.

Vegas was early on the HDV bandwagon, because they are focused on that market.

"The early bird get's the worm.... but it's the second mouse who gets the cheese."

Since Vegas is rumored to support BlackMagic Design cards in Version 6 and the link showed BMD adding dvcpro HD support, then you will have at least one option. It could also mean 10/12bit support in Vegas finally.

I called Adobe tech support, and they say that without extra (3rd party) hardware, DVCPro HD editing ain't going to be pretty - if it works at all. They are gearing towards HDV, and don't have DVCPro HD codec.

That's bad news for me, as I've become a fan of Premiere Pro, and my work is on PC, not Mac.

Any comments?

What about Premiere Pro?
 

Can DVCPRO be edited on PPro? I don't really want to switch NLE's....

well the Digisuite running Prem6.5 does an incredible job of running multiple streams of DVCPro50, so i dont see the Axio having issues running dvcprohd... i too dont particularly want to use Prem Pro, so if it becomes a toss up of swtiching NLE's, id prolly end up using Avid instead...

If there's support for the MXF file format, then that's one step closer to DVCPRO HD.

DVCPRO HD in Premiere Pro?
 

We are a pretty well established Premiere Pro shop. We have some interest in the Panasonic AG-HVX200 camera for doing some HD acquisition. What kind of a workflow would we need in order to edit the DVCPRO HD clips that are recorded on either the P2 cards or an external Firestore device on a Premiere Pro timeline?

I know there is the Matrox Axio, but it's out of our price range.

I know that you can't just drag the DVCPRO HD files from the Firestore into the Premiere Timeline.

We would like to use the Cineform codec with Premiere, but how would we convert DVCPRO HD into Cineform? Is that even worth while?

Can we play the HD media off the camera and bring it in over firewire for ingest into Premiere into the Cineform codec?

Is it possible to playback the files off the camera or the Firestore and somehow convert it into an HD-SDI signal for ingest into a Premiere workstation with an HD-SDI capture card?

Thanks!
Jeremy

Try this:
http://www.dvfilm.com/raylight

I was able to convert and import some 1080i MXF files into Premiere with this. Only problem was that Premiere was quite sluggish. But it does work and you could export to other formats if desired. I think the production version of this software is coming out around the middle of the month. $195 isn't too bad.

Phillip - Can you share your computer specs for us? I am interested in seeing how much juice it is going take to use Raylight with Premiere.

Its a dual core 2.8 Gig processor with 1 Gig ram and 7200rpm SATA system drive. XP SP2. I built this last week as my dedicated video machine, so its a fresh OS load and not bogged down with registry clutter. This same machine plays HD quicktime files without a hiccup.

When I play the proxy AVI files through Media Player I'm only getting a couple of fps too. That's with the raylight quality setting on "high". If I set it to low the files play back a lot smoother in Media Player, but they're crashing out Premiere at that setting. Maybe there's just something on my box that doesn't like raylight.

Maybe converting to Cineform Avi and using Aspect HD with Premiere is a better option? The other application on dvfilm.com do convert to Cineform.

Premiere Pro 2 and DVCPRO-HD support
 

Well, Adobe says on their web site that they support it with an add on card. But they make no mention of what that card is. And I wonder if the mythical card really supports native DVCPRO-HD at all.

Does anyone know more details?

Thing is on FCP you get DVCPro HD support thru firewire and as an import format in SOFTWARE, why on earth would you need a hardware card to support it?

Perhaps they mean the AXIO card from Matrox, which looks good, but it's not cheap.

I remember seeing a video on Adobe's website about a card from AJA: http://www.aja.com/products_kona.html#k2
The Kona specs mention about hardware accelerated DVCPRO-HD.
The video didn't mention this card explicitly, but it sounds like this might be the one. Yeah, I checked on Adobe's third party section, and no hardware capture cards were listed for PP2. I won't be satisfied until a firewire option becomes available.

Alrighty, there's the video from Adobe:
http://www.adobe.com/products/premie...ere_movie.html

Adobe is approaching HD in a very laid back manner with their OpenHD approach. In other words, they're doing what they do best, allowing third-party vendors to provide solutions. DVCPRO[HD] is supported via 3rd party solutions and one of those is the Matrox AXIO - $7K+ just for the AXIO hardware/software bundle.

AJA does support accelerated DVCPROHD and other Quicktime supported codecs with their Kona cards, but the Xena cards (PC versions of these cards) while similar in hardware, are limited by the available codecs on the PC. It's not clear if they will offer any accelerated DVCPROHD features as there are currently no editors (mainly Premiere) that work with these cards and also offer DVCPROHD. At least not that I'm aware of. AJA does not provide any video codecs of their own with the cards.

Now, codecs aside, even if you have an NLE that supports DVCPROHD, you would still need software or a NLE that can read the Op-Atom MXF file format that the HVX200 uses to record data on P2 cards and devices like the Cineporter that connect to the P2 interface. The Firestore intercepts DVCPRO streams from the firewire port, so it's not clear if it records in MXF like the P2 interface and retains the associated metadata or if it records to AVI or QT. The HVX does output RAW DVCPRO streams from the firewire port, so you would be able to capture into a DVCPRO supporting NLE, even if you can't open the MXF files directly from the P2 cards.

Currently, the only MXF compliant solutions on the PC that support DVCPRO are:

AVID Xpress Pro HD (buggy, and their DV100 codec runs at 4~6 FPS)

Canopus Edius Broadcast (awesome MXF support that preserves metadata and great performance, even with HD. However, its not yet a widely supported NLE if you're planning on picking up editing work and it is still rather immature in terms of features). It may work for a lot of people - definitely one to consider for a $1K PC solution.

Matrox AXIO w/ Premiere - A nice NLE on the level of Avid's MC Adrenaline for most tasks. Figure $7500 + the cost of a compatible computer to put it in.

DPS/Leitch VelocityHD - Another excellent solution for MXF support. It's more geared toward networks and broadcast use, but a lot more mature than Edius. Steep price - $9K + cost of a certified computer system.

DV Film's Raylight - A DVCPRO codec with an in-line translator that can read MXF files and create a reference AVI. It allows most any PC NLE to load and work with HVX video data, but it is not yet optimized very well and still in the early stages of development. Performance is poor, but is at least usable and should get better. Only $195 and may be a great temporary solution until other PC NLE's get on the ball and offer native support.

Or the most logical solution for anyone wanting to start working ASAP and not have to deal with beta software and not being able to work with multiple streams of video.... BUY A MAC!!!!! I'm a PC guy and that's what I'm doing. No, I'm not going to do the "switch" I'm just incorporating a new G5 quad into my workflow. It will be my video / dvd creation station with Final Cut Studio and Photoshop. I may add Shake in the near future too. It will also run Lightwave (the 3D software I primarily use) and will also serve as 4x2.5GHz G5 cores for render nodes on my Lightwave render farm. Yes it is a pricey solution compared to waiting it out in PC land, but I stand to gain a lot out of all that I just listed and I can offer HD and DVCPRO services with a fair degree of confidence as soon as my HVX arrives.

VelocityHD currently only supports DVCPRO50 MXF files. Those files do, however, work as advertised on my VelocityHD system, and quite nicely. Simply drag the MXF to the timeline and you get realtime playback without any conversion step. Right now support is solid for either interlaced or progressive 30fps clips, or 24fps with 3:2.

VelocityHD does support 23.976p timelines, but at the moment will not detect and remove pull-down from the 24p clips. I'm sure they will address this soon.

Regards,

Jim Arthurs

Interesting. They list DVCPROHD as a supported format on their web site... I was under the impression that it's now supported in v9..? Or is it just the MXF file transport that is limited to DVCPRO50?

No, currently just DVCPRO50, P2 or otherwise.

They do have 720p Varicam support, but digitized from HD-SDI only, and "support" means proper attention to flagged frames for the various framerates in the "over 60" stream, not native codec on-the-timeline support for DVCPROHD. Here's a link, if something elsewhere specifically says DVCPROHD, it's wrong.

http://www.leitch.com/custserv/products.nsf/$All/7519D6EADE704AC885256E670061039D

Native support of DVCPROHD is a developmental priority, as is general shoring up of all P2 features.

Regards,

Jim Arthurs

Workable?
 

Thank you for a very nice summary; your impressive post leads me to suggest (at some risk of ire for "cross posting") the following (which assumes one is accepting the limitations of AVID you noted)

HVX200 on order
AVID Express Pro 5.2.1
Pro Tools HD 7.0
After Effects
Black Magic’s Decklink HD card and HD link card

It appears that Windows XP/DVX200 users might be able to:

Edit in AVID
Export to AE
Do AE things AND monitor output using AE's support of the Decklink hardware.

Comments welcome!

P2 in Liquid or Premiere?
 

Is it possible to capture/import P2 files yet in the latest versions of Avid Liquid or Adobe Premiere, and if so what's the process required for getting P2 video onto the timeline?