Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

Ryan - I have an AT 851 - quite a long shotgun, it does Not cause any grief when it is moved through 90 degrees, even quickly. I think you need to show/let us hear and example. Can you record a bit ion the problem and let us hear it please. I'm wondering if we are imagining a different problem than the one you have?

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

Time to call the harbor master, too many ships are sailing.

I work in the legal field and I can’t imagine any court allowing you inside to film an indie movie and plug into their sound system to use their courtroom mics.

But honestly you have a sense of humor out this project/thread.

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

I missed this bit. He's using a real court? I don't even know if that's ever been done here? Courts are kind of special and protected. I figured they'd built a set.

However, if you fancy coming to England, the one in my town has just closed down and is for sale?

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

Not as insane as it might sound...I worked on zero budget short film that used a local law enforcement-centric high school's courtroom. Maybe something like that. More amusing that anyone thought there was a budget to build a courtroom set.

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

With the right approach and not wanting one in a large city, a court room could be quite possible.

On one of my short films we got the inside of an airport terminal as a location for a morning, of course you would have considerably more difficulty doing that post 9/11. I suspect our budget was larger than this feature film;s budget, since we were paying people and shooting on Super 16 for a 35mm blow up.

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

Oh okay, I didn't know they didn't use stenographers anymore. But if I was to have mics at the podium, I thought I would use my own mics, like the AT4053b, and the NTG-3, and have those mics on the podium for the actors, and have those be the podium mics, rather than use actual courtroom podium mics, if that's a good idea?

Also, here is the sound of me tilting the boom as if I was tilting it from one actor to another, about 90 degrees, back and forth. The mic makes noise when tilting it back and forth, and I thought it was the wind interference:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZh2...ature=youtu.be

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

It sounds mechanical to me.

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

Well Ryan - I think we're all saying the same thing here - that is NOT wind. What kind of suspension are you using? I'm with Brian - that sounds like a rubbing, mechanical noise. I can actually make that noise with one of my mics with the foam windshield. it has a tendency to slip slightly off, and then the wind pressure when moving actually physically makes the foam shift slightly, rubbing the metal tube and making a very similar noise. Does it make the exact same noise without the windshield, with just a naked mic? Also I can get clunks from my Sennheiser Zeppelin if I move it quickly and rotate the thing, the mic front goes one way, the back the other and they sometimes run out of travel.

Wind doesn't sound like that. I have a long day today but I'll try to record some real wind noise if I can for comparison.

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

Well - I thought I'd do the recording before I rushed out of the door, and what a mistake that was.

I recorded a clip of a 416 inside the Sennheiser zepplin housing.
I then repeated this with an Audio Technical's 815 - this is shown in the image below. Elderly now and a bit noisy compared to the 416. Holding the tube in my hand I moved it rapidly, indoors from on axis to my mouth to the position a second person would be. You can hear the speed I did it, and even with the extended grill area all exposed, this rapid movement produces no noise I can hear from the wind passing. I did first a comparison with the 416 inside the right hand housing seen in the picture. Sadly, doing a test with the other one is no longer possible, thanks to me keeping it in a soft Vinten tripod bag for years, which has been fine, but not so fine this morning when the bag was on the floor and I tipped over a heavy flight case which dropped and landed on it. I don't believe glue will be a solution here.
http://www.limelight.org.uk/pic2.jpg
http://www.limelight.org.uk/pic1.jpg
http://www.limelight.org.uk/416.mp3
http://www.limelight.org.uk/815.mp3

I'm taking the pragmatic view that the case could have landed on my foot, rather than on the microphone housing. I hope you all feel my pain. It does though hopefully convince Ryan the noise he hears is not static, or wind. Shotguns indoors just don't have wind problems that cannot be managed. For reference the low frequency roll off switch on BOTH mics is left on off - so it's flat.

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

Agreed. Most likely its coming from whatever it’s mounted to or the cable rubbing or hitting, maybe a loose windscreen. Would have been more helpful to see a video.

At this point I think it be easier if we just filmed it for him.

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

It’s shame it broke. Superglue and gaffers tape to the rescue. Nice British accent seldom attach voice with the members here. Good luck convincing Ryan.

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

Oh okay thanks. Sorry for the mistake of it being wind. It doesn't make the same noise with the Zeppelin on though, so I thought it was a wind issue. Could the Zeppelin be correcting another noise that is happening then?

I can do a video later on of it, and upload it.

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

You should consider how your mic is attached to the boom. Are there any sources of contact? Is the elastic supporting the mic damaged or weakened? Are you using different mic cradles when attaching the mic to the boom when not using the Zeppelin? Is the cable from the mic causing a problem?

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

How much more useful it would have been to actually aim the video camera at the microphone in question so we could see what we are hearing. Putting up a video clip with no picture just seems remarkably silly.

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

Okay sorry, here is another test done with video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5tL...ature=youtu.be

Some of the booms tilts are okay, others have a little noise, and some have quite a bit of noise. It's not a loose windscreen though, cause I took the windscreen off there to see if that would make a difference, but it's still the same sounds when tilting.

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

That looks like the motions correspond to wind noise. To confirm I'd put the mic in front of a fan or other source of gentle breeze to see if you get the same noise without moving the boom. I would think a small foam windscreen that mounts directly on the mic would solve that.

The clunks suggest there's something else going on.

What I'm wondering is if the cable might be generating the noise. Try tapping, rubbing or shaking the cable with the mic connected but stationary. Gently flick the slack near the end of the boom. If you get noise, repeat the exercise with phantom power off.

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

I really think that vocabulary for describing sound needs a revisit. Most of the participants seem absolute on terms, others vary so much and for sound people this is critical stuff.

We have had in the topic some common terms used to ask and answer questions, but some have been misunderstood. Clarity of language is problematic sometimes between us Brits and our Stateside friends, but I guess most of us have got a reasonable handle on the trouble free ones where it is just amusing and more important ones. Pants always makes me smile - as an instruction to quickly frame the one in pants could be er, interesting. Tights and panty hose often confuse too. We can live with hood and bonnet and petrol and gas we can interchange. We've even got bucks and quid sorted - but we use the same technical terms by and large, apart from perhaps jack and phono plugs which can mess things up.

However - some universally get mangled by new people to our area of work.

Hiss
Hum
Crackles
Static
buzzing
whining
distortion
clipping
wind noise
clicks
pops
thumps
bangs
tapping
rubbing
banging
wind noise
electronics noise
data noise
mechanical noise

Some of these continually get used badly. I think I can identify all of these and have my own limits to where one becomes another.

Maybe at some point we should have an audio clip of all this stuff. Until this topic I'd never really thought about how problems we hear are difficult to put down in words. I'm not sure we have quite so many words of description in vision.

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

Oh okay thanks. I tried flicking and tapping the cable but it doesn't seem to be causing those noises, cause when I do it, the noises do not happen. I also tried a windscreen, but you can still hear the sounds, so I thought if it's wind, maybe I need a stronger windscreen than the little one the mic came with.

I didn't try a fan yet, but I tried recording door slamming noises for a scene I am doing and just the door slamming caused the same sound, so I thought it was wind from the door slam going into the mic. I tried solving it by pointing the mic more downward, but it still made those sounds when slamming the door, so I thought it was wind going at the mic.

I can try a fan next.

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

The AT 4053 isn't a shotgun at all is it, just a hyper. When you were recording, could that be the preamp bottoming out when the wind enters the slots on the side? I'm thinking that the gain is up pretty high and the wind sends it over level and instead of the usual wind noise, it's a distorted full level blast. AKG 451's make a similar noise when idiots blow into them before saying one two, one two. If the mic capsule is immediately behind that grill, then this makes it very susceptible to wind. Shotguns having the capsule at the end of the interference tube prevent a direct blast - or at least make it less likely.

What I do know is that if it makes those kinds of noises indoors, it's pretty hopeless to consider using to outdoors. However - the small grill does mean a simple lightweight foam windshield could help no end and not add much to the size.
You sure you don't have the gain cranked up far too high? If that mic was in somebodies hand, say, singing or making an announcement it would be bad at that too - so something odd is happening.

What is the mic plugged into, what kind of preamp gain setting are you using, what are the peaks coming at at, level wise. As I showed in my audio clip - waving a shotgun about is not a problem, but maybe the 4053 has real wind issues. I'd not ever noticed anyone commenting on that, but for booming maybe it's horribly sensitive to wind blast and it responds like you are getting. probably simplest to swap it for a different mic and see if it gets better or stays the same. The blurb says it came with a foam windshield - have you tried this?

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

Doesn't sound like it's a mechanical cable issue. Sometimes you've just got to try everything to eliminate all the possibilities.

Is it all improved? I would expect at least some improvement.

I think because the capsule is right at the end of the mic body it's getting more exposed motion through the air. A true shotgun capsule is farther back, closer to the axis of rotation, making up for the slightly greater distance with its tighter pattern.

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

Okay thanks, it's just I was told that hypers are better for indoors before, so that is why I've been using it indoors, and it does sound better indoors in my opinion.

My shotgun has no problems when booming and does not make any noises when booming from actor to actor.

The pre-amps are turned up to about 80 percent. That is how much I need to get the average actor to reach a level of -12 decibles on the FR2-LE. If I go below 80, I will not be able to reach -12 decibles with regular dialogue speaking on the average voice, in past experience.

As for whether or not those sounds are peaking, some of them reach peaking, some of them don't. However, I cannot turn the pre-amps down because then they will be too quiet to reach -12 on a normal voice.

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

It's more important to avoid clipping than to reach a target average level. The signal can be processed later to make it the right level.

In music recording the target average level is typically -18dBFS, which generally corresponds to 0dBVU on most analog to digital converters. Using 24 bit conversion means there's well over 140dB of available dynamic range, so a signal peaking at -12dBFS (and averaging quite a bit lower) is not in danger of falling into the digital noise floor. The analog noise floor is still quite a few dB above the digital one.

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

Oh okay, I was told before that -12 is a good safe zone, to get away from the noise floor. However, even if I turn it down to -18, that's only 6 decibels lower, and not all the noises the mic makes when tilting the mic, are clipping sounds. The sounds are still going to be heard even if they are -18 decibels lower. They won't be as high in level, but they will still be made while booming though.

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

Solve one problem at a time.

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

I don’t get why he can’t troubleshoot these issues. After seeing the video its clear that whipping the mic back and forth that fast is causing wind noise. Just put on the appropriate wind screen and slow down the movements. Every mic has its limitations.

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

Okay thanks, but I can't slow down the movements all thet time cause sometimes the other actor will speak fast, so I have to be ready to move fast a lot on other people's projects. It was said before that it might not be wind noise, so I wasn't sure. I could get a windscreen for it, as long as it is wind noise, but are you sure it is likely?

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

It sounds like wind noise to me.

Probably the reason a shotgun isn't recommended for indoors is that the off axis response is a bit funky. The room might bounce some of the sound back into it. But I'd give it a go and see how it sounds.

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

Oh well the shotgun sounds not bad indoors, just not as good I find.

Plus with the hyper, you have a little more wiggle room too, which is good. I find that the hyper has no problems if I am booming one person and don't have to tilt. Here is a short film I did recently with someone else booming with my mic, and there isn't any wind problems I don't think because there is no tilting involved, and just one person speaking:


So if the sound is good, I would like to keep using the mic if possible. Plus it seems to have a little more base than the shotgun which is good. But perhaps I just need better wind protection then, then the thin screen it came with, which seems to make no difference.

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

Ryan, what you seem to need is an immediate dose of years of experience, the willingness to experiment, the development of technique and a good ear. We are trying so hard to help. You've heard that shotguns don't sound good indoors and taken multiple comments on here and the web in general as a fact. The trouble is you haven't discovered yet why people say this. That clip I posted. A shotgun with NO noise turning as fast as I can. Last night in my studio I was using an AKG 414. I stick it on hyper and tried moving it. Terrible wind noise. Not just wind but crunch mechanical sounding wind like your AT. Does this prove its a bad mic? No of course not, but clearly it's the wrong mic. In my clip there's no wind, but would you say the room sounds bad on my voice? When it's on axis, there's no real room issue, when it's off axis to my mouth my voice reveals the shotgun sound people hate. Your job is to make sure you don't record it. Too many users do a rubbish job of aiming the mic and this reveals the hollow sound. Your AT suffers really badly. The gain setting in dB is NOT what we're trying to suggest, we're asking if the gain staging is wrong. Is the mic too sensitive so the internal preamp cannot cope, or is the crushing sound coming from the external preamp? Clearly the combination you have at the moment doesn't work. If the windshield doesn't work, then try something else. It only needs to be small on your mic. Get a bit of fur fabric and stick it over the grill and secure with an elastic band. Do something practical. The wind you believe causes it, so stop the wind!!!!

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

Oh okay thanks, sometimes with the shotgun I haven't been able to tell a difference in reverb hardly, but there one concern I have from actual experience. If I am trying to keep background noise in the background, while indoors, the hyper does a better job of it. With the hyper, background noise is more in the background, say if there is is a vent noise, we are not allowed to turn off, or something like that.

If were to use the shotgun instead, is it possible to put background noise, further into the background with them?

And you mentioned the thing about using the shotgun, it's when for my own projects someone else is usually booming in the past they did a bad job with the shotgun, and were not accurate enough, and it was a bad price for me to pay. So I thought they would do better with the hyper, since I was told it has more wiggle room for indoors. But if the hyper is the wrong mic, how do you get someone to get really good with the right mic?

As for the crushing sound coming from the external pre-amp possibly, I'm not sure if it is. Is there a way to tell if it is?

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

I would try experimenting with a different hyper mic. I recall being supplied with a mic and no matter what you did regarding windshields it was always prone to wind noise outdoors. Changing to different brand of mic solved the issue,

It may be worth getting the hyper checked out by a technician, in case it has been damaged, since doing a quick check online doesn't reveal users having an issue with this mic when used on a boom.

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

Does it matter where I think it comes from Ryan? you have the kit, so the ball's in your court. I don't know how loud your sources are, I don't know your distances, I don't know without the mic in my hand how susceptible it really is.

You did actually say something you should think about. If you have inept boom ops, then giving them and easier tool, but perhaps a worse one is a crazy process. If a shotgun with the extra reach is the best tool, why would you select a wider pattern mic, that will sound more distant, and pick up so much more from the room? it's like a follow spot on a person on an empty stage, who is running around. a good follow spot op can keep their head and upper body in the white circle and never plunge them into darkness. you can see all the detail in their face and costume, and very little of the background is visible. however, as I have experienced dozens of times, a novice follow spot operator over shoots, under shoots, or worse, opens the circle up so it covers two feet above their head, two feet below their feet and two feet either side. The person never goes dark, but the audience see the scenery, the other actors behind him, the piles of rubbish in the wings. It's exactly like swapping a shotgun for a hyper or a cardioid. see the problem.

How do you get someone to be really good? Easy. Practice.

you have everything you need, but I can't get my head around your problems.

You say you can hardly tell a difference in reverb between the shotgun and the hyper? Then use the shotgun if it doesn't;t make the noise you hate. OR - stop the hyper making the noise. If you cannot hear the difference you either have terrible headphones or terrible ears. You really are expecting to buy the same paints as Rembrandt and are cross because your portraits don't look the same, and the other people you have them to produced even worse results. Perhaps time to find a decent painter?

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

Okay thanks. Where would I find a technician to look at it? The store that sold it has people who know some stuff, but there is also a lot they do not know as well, I find.

So what you are saying is that a shotgun performs just as well indoors as a hyper, if the operator is really good at being accurate with it, is that right?

As for the hyper sounding more distant, than the shotgun, does it? I didn't notice a difference in distance, but does it normally?

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

No Ryan - not what I'm saying at all. There is nothing broken, or at least it's unlikely.

If you look at the AT mic you have, consider the design. A capsule at the end that has front access to sound pressure waves, it also has side vents that are part of the process of what's technically called a pressure gradient microphone. sound comes in on axis and hits the diaphragm but sound also arrives from other directions and a simplified result is cancellation of sound from certain places - making the microphone have a focus forwards, more than a cardioid, but with some odd side lobes. These perhaps, assuming the mic really is OK, are a direction of some sensitivity - and even slight wind from the side could be captured by the mic as something very loud!

Stick it in a sports sock, wrap it with velvet, grab a teddy bear and make a hole up it's bottom and stuff the mic in - try these things and if one reduces the problem, then you just need to work out a prettier way to do the same thing.

Shotguns indoors do provide good capture when the signal to noise works for you. Like in the video on booming, somebody posted - if you aim at their mouth and not their head they sound great. If you miss their mouth then you will capture the sound of whatever you are pointing at. A wall, a window, a ceiling or a floor. If these are reflecting sound and you capture it, it can sound hollow and thin - just not nice. For many people, this is enough to put them off. Shotguns indoors are room dependent and operator critical. A hyper needs closer positioning for the same aural effect, but are more forgiving in operator control.

You could use an omni (please - this is not an instruction) and not have to move the boom at all and listeners would hear the room. If the room was dead, the omni - like clip on wavs would be fine!

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

Initially I would do what Paul says to check for a solution for the issue.

I would eliminate all possible external causes before checking for other issues. Also, be aware of the operating technique when twisting the boom for the switch,

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

So you’re saying I should use an omni mic. :-p

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

Okay thanks. Since the shotgun is less sensitive to wind, and has more distance than a hyper, is there any reason or any situation to use a hyper at all, for sound capturing for movies, or not really?

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

Ryan, you're still not quite there. Shotguns enable you to capture from further away and get a similar sound, but this of course means you need more gain. More gain brings up a gentle present into something more aggressive. Outside wind rarely maintains a constant direction so big wind protection is the norm.

Of course there are reasons to use a hyper. Two people too far apart for a shotgun to cover without moving, a noisy set can make the shotgun a winner with the ability to concentrate capture on a small areas. Four or five in a group is tricky for a shotgun so we use a hyper. Practical decisions the experienced sound guy makes on the day, after looking at the setup. Best tool for the job.

Please don't think we are prescribing shotguns as less sensitive to wind by type. Clearly your hyper is terrible for wind rejection, either because of design (which I, like others have never heard mentioned before) or its faulty. Give it to somebody comfy with mics and they will tell you in a minute if it's normal or broken.

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

You're making a general statement, I know sound recordists who use a different make of hyper mic on a boom without any wind issues. There also seems to be others online who use your hyper mic without issues and regard it as a good budget alternative to industry standards..

There are good windshields available, which would seem to be worth checking out. As mentioned earlier in the thread, Rycote make softies and even a super softie or windjammers or foam., These aren't be as big as a Zeppelin, so will be less of a shadow problem Other brands are available, one person just uses a $5 foam one for interiors on a boom.

You do need to run you own practical tests, otherwise the thread will just keep going around in circles.

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 

I think Brian is right, we''re making little progress here because 99% of this problem is totally within the control of the operator. I just don't understand why you're not trying out the stuff we're talking about.

Brian - if you are free at any point Mid November to Jan, come and find me at the Opera House in Belfast, happy to give you a tour of the place and the clever kit we use.