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-   -   Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects? (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/all-things-audio/536732-should-i-using-multiple-mics-record-dialogue-sound-effects.html)

Ryan Elder May 4th, 2019 02:43 AM

Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
I was told by a couple of others in the audio business that instead of using one boom mic to record all of the dialogue that I should have multiple mics around the scene, to create a surround sound mix, live while shooting, cause it's better to spend the extra money on mics to do it while shooting then to create surround sound in post, which won't sound as natural.

They also say that if I want to record sound effects, such as a car driving by for example, that I should record it with multiple mics to get different parts of the car simultaneously, rather than trying to record all the parts separately, cause it won't match if I do that they said, cause the car will be driving by with different sounds, if I try to record all the different sounds, one at a time, on different takes.

Things like that. What do you think, do you think it's worth it, to mic a whole scene for surround sound, during shooting, in order to save time doing it in post? And does doing it during shooting sound more natural, than trying synthesize reverb and sound direction in post, by comparison?

Rick Reineke May 4th, 2019 09:20 AM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
For dialog... ONE mic (on a boom for instance) on ONE MONO track. I will not elaborate on ISO tracks.
S/FX are typically recorded at a different time (and place) with one or more mics/tracks depending on the source and situation. A 'drive-by' would typically be recorded with a stereo mic or stereo pair on two tracks.

Seth Bloombaum May 4th, 2019 10:48 AM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
As Rick said: Dialog is *never* surround. Dialog is center and mono. If dialog *can* be captured with a single mic on a stick, that’s almost always the straightest path to the best sound.

I hate to use words like “never” in an online forum, because there’s always some example to the contrary. What I’m talking about are the conventions of micing and mixing for cinema and television, with an occasional exception for off-screen dialog that is implied to be outside the scene.

There may be some confusion of terminology - 4 or 6 independent lavs to independent recording channels is not “surround”. In those instances where multiple lavs come out, they are recorded to independent (ISO) channels whenever possible, preserving mix choices to post. In post, they will be mixed to the center speaker of a surround mix, or, to the center of a stereo mix. Likewise, as Rick also wrote, a stereo mic/array can be a good tool for SFX to reflect the geography of a source, or moving source.

Surround mixing is about SFX. I can’t comment on your car question, because the answer is usually: “It depends what you want.” If the perspective is from inside the car you record SFX inside the car. If outside, etc. Surround micing of SFX, in the rare situations that it is done, is usually recorded with a mic array designed for surround or ambisonic capture.

If you want the sounds of tire noise, dashboard blinkers and dings and dongs, windows ups and downs, and use multiple mics to capture it, it is not a surround capture, it’s multiple channels of mono for you to mix in post, and, maybe, to mix to various surround speakers for playback.

Ryan Elder May 4th, 2019 12:51 PM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
Oh okay, I've been recording dialogue to just singular mono tracks for a few a years now. It's just these other guys I meet in the community who are more experienced than I am, or so I think, say I should be doing the actual surround sound mix in production and not in post, cause then it's just more post work.

So far I've been doing it in post with mono tracks though.

But they say I should record 4-6 tracks with all the mics placed in the room in a surround sound capturing fashion.

If an actor walks from left to write while talking to the other actors in a scene, than the mics should be placed left to right, so he can walk past each mic and it will give a left to right surround sound mix in production, so I don't have to do that in post for example.

They said I should of course have a boom on the actor that is moving with the actor the whole time, as back up, but I should do the left to right mic placement.

Or if an actor is talking while sitting on the floor and then getting up, while talking, I shouldn't just boom along with the actor, I should have mics placed going from the floor, to the ceiling to capture the surround, as he goes from floor to ceiling, they said.

But this would be a lot more money in mics I would think. I have two boom mics which cost me 800 dollars each about, for example, which is very cheap of course, but they say I could but several mics for 100 dollars each which will sound just as good and will match, if I know where to buy them from. If that's true?

Seth Bloombaum May 4th, 2019 01:56 PM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
I hope they get all they’re looking for out of their productions, but I wouldn’t employ them for my sound.

The other case for ambisonic (not surround) playback of dialog is for 360/VR films. Even there, typical workflows utilize an ambisonic mic/array located with the camera, not plant mics.

That’s the term for what they’re suggesting: Plant mics. It was done more in the past, and, you’ll see mention of it in older textbooks and guides, but it fell out of use as mics became miniaturized and lavs became generally available.

Ryan Elder May 4th, 2019 02:00 PM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
Oh okay, well with lav mics you cannot do a surround sound mix in production during shooting though, like they are suggesting, so why did lavs outphase plant mics, if you cannot get surround with them then?

Rick Reineke May 4th, 2019 05:34 PM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Wray (Post 1950352)
It's just these other guys ... say I should be doing the actual surround sound mix in production and not in post, cause then it's just more post work.

Whatever floats their boat but it is the opposite in the pro sound world.

Ryan Elder May 4th, 2019 06:19 PM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
Oh okay, why is it the opposite though, and why to the pros prefer to do it in post?

Pete Cofrancesco May 4th, 2019 09:11 PM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
In idie budget film making you’re going to find lots of unusual practices to save money. The standard practice is to record dialog mono boomed and then mix it with ambient, sounds effects and music. A final step would be to adjust those tracks in a special software or plugin to make it surround. It sounds like they’re suggesting if you recorded it as “surround” you could save time and money by skipping the last step of making a surround mix in post.

Honestly I wouldn’t do it. It’s the lazy man surround sound. You should concentrate on exploring creative techniques and strategies for cinema sound rather than obsessing about surround sound.

Ryan Elder May 5th, 2019 01:29 AM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
Okay thanks. Actually I was considering their option, cause they want to do the sound with me and on a group project. They were thinking of hiding the mics around a scene so they cannot be seen. But most mics have to be within two feet of an actor to get close quality in my opinion, would I be right on that?

And it's going to be hard to hide all the mics, so an actor will be within two feet of all of them as we walks past them, while walking around in a scene, wouldn't it?

Seth Bloombaum May 5th, 2019 09:43 AM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Wray (Post 1950355)
Oh okay, well with lav mics you cannot do a surround sound mix in production during shooting though, like they are suggesting, so why did lavs outphase plant mics, if you cannot get surround with them then?

Because no one outside of immersive art installations or 360 video wants dialog coming from anything but the center front speaker (surround playback) or center of a stereo mix. The way to get that playback is to record dialog in mono.

Your posts imply that dialog can or should be “surround mixed” for playback. Dialog is recorded in mono, perhaps multiple channels of mono (ISO) for mixing and assignment to a specific place in a surround or stereo mix. It is not helpful at all to record dialog in surround!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Wray (Post 1950365)
Okay thanks. Actually I was considering their option, cause they want to do the sound with me and on a group project. They were thinking of hiding the mics around a scene so they cannot be seen. But most mics have to be within two feet of an actor to get close quality in my opinion, would I be right on that?

And it's going to be hard to hide all the mics, so an actor will be within two feet of all of them as we walks past them, while walking around in a scene, wouldn't it?

You are right on that. Plant mics are the worst for coverage of moving actors. Booms and lavs are better.

These “more experienced” sound people are welcome to do what they want. Like Pete wrote, there are lots of unconventional approaches employed to save money or other resources on no-to-low budget projects.

A plant mic approach might have worked great in a specific scene. It wasn’t “surround”. Surround is a specific term that refers to specific speaker placements in playback systems, it started in theaters and later showed up in homes.

It might not work at all in the next scene. Hey, we got a mic at the cash register and one at the table in a coffee shop! Works OK until there’s standing dialog in the line where there’s no place to plant.

Surround mics / mic arrays exist, and, yes, they can be used to represent certain SFX to a surround playback system. Even there, their use is uncommon, because even in the scenes that might benefit, every shot needs micing that matches the shot’s perspective. Easier in post.

Use of plant mics was nearly eliminated because there are better ways to get better sound that aren’t more expensive... unless you happen to know where there’s a half-dozen small-diaphram omni condensor mics in the music dept. that no one uses. Then, plant mics start to seem more affordable. When your hammer is 6 free mics, every scene looks like the nail to hit with it.

The advice posted in this thread represents conventional best practices, arrived at across films and shows in multiple genres. These methods work reliably when properly done.

We need innovators. Innovation is great. Plant mics to make a “surround” recording? Not so much...

I work with a lot of students. My advice is to understand and gain skills with the tools and methods that are acknowledged as typical or best practices approaches before jumping in to anything else.

Here is a ranked list of expected faithfulness of a dialog recording when properly used:
1) Hypercardiod or short shotgun on a boom (which one depends on the recording environment)
2) Wired lavs
3) Wireless lavs
4) Plant mics

Steven Digges May 5th, 2019 10:04 AM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
The number one hallmark of quality audio is "consistent quality of sound." Consistent quality dialog requires consistent proximity of mic technique. A proper understanding of proximity is basic audio 101. Changes in proximity because an actor walks closer or farther from fixed mics does not create "surround sound dialog". It creates crap audio. Your friends do not understand the basics of audio theory.

Kind Regards,

Steve

Ryan Elder May 5th, 2019 10:25 AM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
Okay thanks. Yeah they want to get the surround sound mix during shooting, so they don't have to do it in post. They just say during shooting it will sound more natural, rather than manipulating the surround in post.

But I do not know where to put all these plant mics without creating severe blocking limitations, as well as having an awkwardly staged set, in order to hide the plant mics.

They also say that having plant mics for surround sound will give me a natural room ambiance sound, that you just can't get in post, but when shooting in real locations, I actually like to cut down on room ambiance, cause most locations we shoot in, are not ideal for the taking full advantage ambiance, if that makes sense?

They also say it's okay if a person is further away from a mic, as they walk from left to right, cause them getting closer to the mic on the right, will match the video perspective, but do they have a point there, as far as mic distance goes, vs. the distance of the character in the video perspective?

Pete Cofrancesco May 5th, 2019 08:34 PM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Wray (Post 1950371)
Okay thanks. Yeah they want to get the surround sound mix during shooting, so they don't have to do it in post. They just say during shooting it will sound more natural, rather than manipulating the surround in post.

But I do not know where to put all these plant mics without creating severe blocking limitations, as well as having an awkwardly staged set, in order to hide the plant mics.

They also say that having plant mics for surround sound will give me a natural room ambiance sound, that you just can't get in post, but when shooting in real locations, I actually like to cut down on room ambiance, cause most locations we shoot in, are not ideal for the taking full advantage ambiance, if that makes sense?

They also say it's okay if a person is further away from a mic, as they walk from left to right, cause them getting closer to the mic on the right, will match the video perspective, but do they have a point there, as far as mic distance goes, vs. the distance of the character in the video perspective?

Like everyone is saying your friends are wrong. They don't understand or are misusing the perspective principal.

Here's an example where might deviate from the standard micing to match the visual perspective.

You film closeup two people are having a conversation (lav/boom them). Cut to a wide shot from their perspective of a person entering the scene at a far distance and he shouts something to them. If you don't do a close up of him and he is laved the audio will not match the visual perspective. He is far away but you can hear him like he's near.

This is an example where perspective over rides the rule that the mic should be with in 3ft of the actor. But in 99% of the time dialog occurs between people that are close to each other and the goal is to get clean dialog that at the same level.

Ryan Elder May 5th, 2019 08:59 PM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
Okay thanks, your example is what I though was right and how I've been doing it before. But they say that if I have the mics close with no mics far away, to record simultaneously, than I will have to ambiance in the voice. Is that true though, that recording close up, cuts down on too much ambiance perhaps without further away mics to pick it up, along with the close up mic?

Also, they say that I will have no surround sound then if I do not have mics placed all over the scene, and there will be no directional change therefore, if a character walks from right to left, for example.

Pete Cofrancesco May 5th, 2019 09:36 PM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
Ambient audio is important and needs to be mixed in otherwise it won’t sound natural. If you want record it using stereo pair mics.

Instead of me trying to disprove various ideas you have just read and understand this
https://www.filmmakingstuff.com/record-surround-sound/
If you accept this then I leave you to reconcile it with what your friends are telling you.

Ryan Elder May 5th, 2019 09:49 PM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
Okay thanks, when you say ambient audio needs to be mixed, do you mean mixed in post?

Pete Cofrancesco May 5th, 2019 10:20 PM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
Yes in post. For example if your filming a scene at a restaurant. I’d record a few minutes of the background or ambient then record the dialogue separately. Now in post you can decide how much background noise you want.

Ryan Elder May 5th, 2019 10:51 PM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
Okay thanks, this is what I have been doing so far, but they said that the ambience in the actors voices will be gone if I record the background separately. I need to have mics placed far away while they are talking to record the ambiance in their voices, not just the room only. Otherwise there will not be enough voice ambiance cause I just used a mic that was too close up to get the ambiance, without background mics for ambiance.

Is that true?

Roger Gunkel May 6th, 2019 05:48 AM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
I don't understand the difficulty you are having with this. Clearly the people who are advising you have a lot of experience of recording sound incorrectly. What is their professional background in the sound field that you give so much credence to their opinions?

If you want the ambient and the close sound balance, simply place a general stereo pair to record the overall ambience, then a lav or boom mic for the close up sound. If you want to make the voice move across the scene as the actor walks in talking, just pan the mono close up mike in post across the stereo soundscape to match the movement, mixing it to whatever level you want it.

Roger

Ryan Elder May 6th, 2019 06:58 AM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
Oh well they just have been recording audio for a lot longer than I have, and unlike me, who learned on my own, they actually went to school for it. However, they spend all of their careers recording music bands though, and the bands I guess prefer to play all their instruments simultaneously, rather than record each sound at a time, so maybe that is why the idea of putting every little sound together in post feels incorrect to them maybe?

They also said that panning with the mic and following the actor is a no no, because then you will not actually hear the direction change, and the actor will sound like they are in the same place in the room the whole time, if you pan with them, rather than from walking out of the space of one mic, into another, if that's true.

Paul R Johnson May 6th, 2019 08:37 AM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
It's all about magic. How many people would put up something like a soundfield mic and use it's output and nothing else. It's all about illusion and sound design. real location sound is usually horrible, and frequently useless. You re-create what you need in the studio. If you have two people, apart, then two lavs is probably the only way in many locations to get clean usable sound, a boom just being too distant in perspective. If they move, even worse. Do what is best for you. Ignore people with rigid rules, because they rarely ever work.

For me, the most useful sources on location are the boom going to a separate recorder and the camera mics for general ambience - that's it!

Pete Cofrancesco May 6th, 2019 09:49 AM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
As for your friends. It's not unusual when someone pickups an incorrect practice or idea and holds on to it for a long time it's next to impossible to divest them of their incorrect notions.

I know how appealing surround sound is to you but the best thing would be to drop it, it's not important.

Rob Neidig May 6th, 2019 10:35 AM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
As many people have already stated here, your friends have their own strange idea of how to record things. That is NOT how it is normally done. And it really has nothing to do with "surround sound". As others have mentioned, that is its own specialty. Other posts have listed some of the reason why not to record everything at once, but one that has not been mentioned is the sheer impracticality of setting up multiple mics on every shot. It is difficult enough to just get good clean dialog on most sets. The idea of setting up a bunch of other mics to try to get the environment as well is a nightmare. You would also have to hide all those mics from the camera. Where you have to hide them is probably not the best place to get the audio from. On set with all the production people and actors is usually the most expensive part of the process. You would end up adding many unnecessary hours to production on set to try to place all these mics. Everyone else would be constantly waiting on sound to be ready. And I believe you would get limited results out of it anyway. You are much better off getting clean dialog with the actors, then going back and recording all the little ambience things separately so you can control the environment. Yes, it takes longer in post, but it results in much better audio that you have control over.

So here's just one small example of why recording all the sounds at once would be a bad idea:

Say you've got a scene in a restaurant with two people talking. While you are shooting the wide shot, you hear the sound of a glass being placed on a nearby table, or a fork clanging on a plate. When you shoot a close up of the actors, that sound is not there, or it's at a different spot in their conversation. If you have recorded clean dialog, you can use audio from either the wide shot or close ups as needed. If you have tried to record all the ambience at the same time, you have this big mess of sound that may fit one part of the scene, but not another.

Hope this helps. Have fun!

Bruce Watson May 6th, 2019 11:30 AM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Wray (Post 1950382)
Oh well they just have been recording audio for a lot longer than I have, and unlike me, who learned on my own, they actually went to school for it.

Ah, the temptation to say something nasty about their school(s) and/or the state of their education is strong, but I shall resist. ;-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Wray (Post 1950382)
However, they spend all of their careers recording music bands though, and the bands I guess prefer to play all their instruments simultaneously, rather than record each sound at a time, so maybe that is why the idea of putting every little sound together in post feels incorrect to them maybe?

And there, right there, is the problem. Recording bands has an incredibly small overlap with recording dialog. These are nearly completely different tasks. Analogy: just because you know how to play clarinet doesn't mean you know enough to advise someone on how to play a piano.

So say it with us Ryan: record dialog in mono, as close as possible, to avoid recording any room tone or ambiance. Everything else, including reverb on your dialog, is done in post. Once again, everything else is done in post.

You want to know why? Read up. Here's a book.

Pete Cofrancesco May 6th, 2019 02:29 PM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
Crash Zoom thread deja vous all over again. :p

Steven Digges May 6th, 2019 03:18 PM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
Seriously Ryan, Buy the book Bruce recommended. Best $34.00 you will ever spend. I have the old first and second editions right here in my edit suite. Jay Rose spells everything out in a simple easy to understand format. It is not even a book you have to read in order from start to finish. He categorizes some of it so you can go to sections you need right away. This one book will take you production and post production skills up many levels.

Kind Regards,

Steve

Ryan Elder May 6th, 2019 06:49 PM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
Okay thanks, I will get that book!

I was also wondering for when we do a sound mix for theaters and film festivals, we could do either 5.1 or 7.1 but is one better than the other? It seems that 5.1 is more popular, but is 7.1 better, for the quality audience experience?

Or do a lot of theaters not have 7.1 and that could effect who will accept the movie?

Paul R Johnson May 7th, 2019 01:31 AM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
I like the comments on crossover being very limited. My audio kit is stored in one place and our video kit in another. The booms, shotguns, zeppelins, hairy sausages, long handled omni mics and on camera receivers NEVER find their way into our audio studio and we treat them totally separately - in fact, I have somewhere a lovely Beyer M50 and n' remember the last time we even had it out of the bag. Sound is always lumped into one category as if it's somehow universal. It isn't just the kit, it's what the kit does, and what you then do with the audio you record back in the studio. It has so little to do with the processes you use for normal audio work (we do both). However - its also fair to say that studio techniques for a metal band vary considerably from the techniques you use for classical music. This is why I firmly believe that direct to stereo recording g should be considered totally separately from close mic techniques. Maybe they are more akin to location sound for video?

Think back 50 years - in TV studios, it was common to record all dialogue with Fischer Boom - where very accurate aiming at a distance worked fine. Now we slap on hidden wavs, and even though we record location wild tracks we rarely use them because we have got used to the 'manufactured' sound of real life.

Pete Cofrancesco May 7th, 2019 05:26 AM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
I picked up an audio trick that I use for theater events. So for a musical for I record a mono feed of the singers to the right channel and record to the left channel a mono mic of the auditorium. In post I mix the two a little bit. This method does two things, I can control the levels of ambient/board independently and by having them in separate right/left channels it creates a pseudo stereo effect making it sound more full.

Some might consider it a hack but it works for me.

Roger Gunkel May 7th, 2019 06:51 AM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Wray (Post 1950382)
Oh well they just have been recording audio for a lot longer than I have, and unlike me, who learned on my own, they actually went to school for it. However, they spend all of their careers recording music bands though, and the bands I guess prefer to play all their instruments simultaneously, rather than record each sound at a time, so maybe that is why the idea of putting every little sound together in post feels incorrect to them maybe?

They also said that panning with the mic and following the actor is a no no, because then you will not actually hear the direction change, and the actor will sound like they are in the same place in the room the whole time, if you pan with them, rather than from walking out of the space of one mic, into another, if that's true.

I spent over 20 years recording bands in studios, and used multi close mics on drum kits, mics on all instruments and and recorded the vocals in a separate booth. That's to stop overspill between instruments, drums and voices, to get the sound of each instrument without the jumbled mess of everything at once. Classical music on the other hand was often just a matched stereo pair

For the last 30 years I have been video recording mainly weddings, where I want to capture the close sound of the vows and the celibrant, without it all being lost in the reverberation of the room or church. In the natural world, our ears and brain are able to focus on what we want to hear and filter out the background. If you put a pair of mics where our ears are and try to record someone talking to you from 6-10ft away, the recording will sound totally different to what you hear because every single sound and every reflection of every sound will be recorded, so you will hear the reverberation and echo of the room, cars passing by and people talking elsewhere. These are the things that your brain sorts out for you, but getting a recording that 'sounds' natural, requires a different approach.

If you set up a mic where someone enters a room, another mic half way across and a third where the person is going to stop, you will simply hear the person getting louder and quieter as he approaches and passes each mic.That is not what people actually in the room will hear. As has been said repeatedly, using a close mike for clarity and adding in whatever ambient sound level you require will give a much more realistic result. If you want to see and hear a wide view of the person walking from left to right whilst talking, simply pan the close recording to follow them in post. If you want one person talking one side and one the other, just pan the close mic mono recordings to favour the side that the person is on. On the other hand, if the camera is showing a big closeup of the person walking across, then the sound needs to be central to the view to simulate what a person watching and listening to the speaker will be focused upon.

Alternatively, ignore the voices of experience here who earn their living from it, and listen to your friends.:-)

Roger

Ryan Elder May 7th, 2019 06:57 AM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
Okay thanks. When you say 'pan' do you mean pan in post mixing?

Roger Gunkel May 7th, 2019 11:12 AM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Wray (Post 1950404)
Okay thanks. When you say 'pan' do you mean pan in post mixing?

Yes, in post, lay down your ambient sound for the scene if that is what you want, then on another track lay down the close mic voice. Then as the person moves across the room, rotate the pan control steadily from the side they appear talking, to where they stop moving in the stereo sound image.You don't have to be exact, as the perception will be that the sound is coming from the person talking. For a more real life atmosphere, you could record your ambient sound with a stereo recorder to get the feeling of the other noises in the room coming from different points of the room, then adjust the volume of that in post.

The point to be aware of as far as I am concerned, is that the human voice is mono, coming from a small opening in the front of the face, so if you record that sound from several feet away, you are not recording that voice as it is, rather the sound of all the reflections in the room. I prefer to capture the intimacy of the voice, then you can add ambience to it as required, whereas you can't remove ambience if it is recorded with the voice. Close mics give you maximum control.

Just to illustrate it from a different point of view, you could compare it with producing video. You can show a couple of minutes of a beach scene, with people throwing a beach ball, kids building sand castles, folks swimming and sunbathing etc etc. All of that can be captured just like we would with our eyes, a wide angle and a bit of panning. That is exactly what you see in most boring holiday videos. But The brain doesn't see the scene the same way, it focuses our attention on the beautiful blonde in the green bikini, or the little boy licking his ice cream, or the black cloud starting to gather overhead.. The video producer does the same as the brain, by focusing our attention on the little details that he wants us to see, using different framing etc.

Setting a sound scene uses much of the same idea, to focus the viewer and listener on the details, not just the overall scene.

Roger

Ryan Elder May 7th, 2019 06:30 PM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
Okay thanks. Is there any reason to record ambiance live though, as oppose to just adding in room sound in post though? I am guessing most realistic locations, have poor ambiance you don't want, or would want to cut down on, so would it be ideal not to record ambiance at all and just add it in post? Or unless you want a specific sound like a photocopy machine in the background making noise for example, but you would want to add that separately of course, not during live dialogue recording.

Roger Gunkel May 8th, 2019 04:24 AM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
General ambience, like a railway station, shopping mall, restaurant etc, could all be recorded at the time of filming and used as an overall ambient sound. Specific sounds relating directly to the action, such as a door being opened car pulling away etc, would be added to coincide with the timing on screen. So for a general scene of the central character walking through a wide angle of a station, the recorded ambient sound would be to the fore, but cutting to a big closeup of the person talking would bring the close mic voice to the fore and the background ambience would be reduced to focus the viewer on the action.

I recorded part of a wedding a few years ago with a faulty mic, and had no sound of the couple leaving the church with the bells ringing and driving off in a Rolls Royce. In post, I took general ambient sound outside a church from another wedding, found some appropriate church bells online that I added on another track, dropped in a car door closing from a sound effects CD and from a BBC effects CD the sound of a Rolls Royce starting up and pulling away. I even recorded myself and my wife calling goodbye in a couple of different voices and mixed the whole lot down to the final edit. The couple never had a clue and even thought that my voice calling out goodbye in the background was actually her Father.

A bit of imagination and resourcefulness is all it takes to get realistic audio.

Roger

Ryan Elder May 8th, 2019 06:54 AM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
Okay thanks, this is the way I prefer to do it too, is record background sound separately, cause then you get the best sounds you want, but some audio people seem to be very insistent to get all the sounds, on the shooting days in that scene, and to limit post work, even if it means the sounds will not be as good as a result.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson (Post 1950398)
I like the comments on crossover being very limited. My audio kit is stored in one place and our video kit in another. The booms, shotguns, zeppelins, hairy sausages, long handled omni mics and on camera receivers NEVER find their way into our audio studio and we treat them totally separately - in fact, I have somewhere a lovely Beyer M50 and n' remember the last time we even had it out of the bag. Sound is always lumped into one category as if it's somehow universal. It isn't just the kit, it's what the kit does, and what you then do with the audio you record back in the studio. It has so little to do with the processes you use for normal audio work (we do both). However - its also fair to say that studio techniques for a metal band vary considerably from the techniques you use for classical music. This is why I firmly believe that direct to stereo recording g should be considered totally separately from close mic techniques. Maybe they are more akin to location sound for video?

Think back 50 years - in TV studios, it was common to record all dialogue with Fischer Boom - where very accurate aiming at a distance worked fine. Now we slap on hidden wavs, and even though we record location wild tracks we rarely use them because we have got used to the 'manufactured' sound of real life.

When you say hairy sausages, do you mean wind protection?

Also I was thinking of just using a boom and no lavs, since I never liked the sound of lavs compared to the sound of a boom, but is that a bad idea?

When you say your audio equipment for shooting on location never finds it's way into your studio, does your studio have different mics? Personally I like using the same mics for post as well, cause then it sounds more the same, as when you recorded on location, cause you are using the same mics, but you don't think this is as good of an idea, are you saying?

Pete Cofrancesco May 8th, 2019 09:17 AM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
I was watching tv last night, listening to dialogue with this thread in mind. I was struck by how clean and isolated the dialogue is from the background, the levels are consistent even when actors are moving or turning in another direction. The background noise is also very low during dialogue. None of this seems to be a problem because the viewer’s mind accepts the reality that’s given to it.

All of this reminds me of what someone said earlier that your job isn’t to faithfully reproduce what it sounded like on location but include or highlight only what you want. The goal is a little different when recording a live event.

Paul R Johnson May 8th, 2019 12:50 PM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
Practically NONE of my studio mics work well on location and vice versa. Totally different job. I have a couple of 416s and an elderly Audio technical's 815 that is quite long and has more reach. It's just too long for booming though - todays mounts, windshield and wind covers (the sausages) are just too big and heavy. On location, I'll use the 416 very happily. I don't like it's sound in the studio. Many people seem to love them for voiceovers, I don't. Too clean and clinical for my tastes, and prone so much to popping in close, and 416s NOT used close pick up far too much room sound from reflections.

My stereo camera mic has saved my bacon many times when the main mics just missed things - the camera sound can be used for all sorts. In the studio I have control. I have the ability to do things properly. So much of my outside audio is useless for many different reasons. You also need an excellent person doing the booming, with headphone so they can do it properly. If you see anyone booming without headphone, you know the sound will be rubbish. So many just cannot aim properly - the crucial feature. If they missed the essential dialogue, then the director needs to know instantly - you can't fix it in post, only re-record it!

I see college and even graduate sound people with boom poles and they're lazy, holding them like a fishing rod, because both arms up is painful! You watch them randomly point the shotgun vaguely in the direction of the talent's mouth - just. With a shotgun, at a distance - you are ALWAYS fighting signal to noise - the most clean capture from the talent and picking up the least of everything else. Sometimes you just cannot do this!

Ryan Elder May 8th, 2019 05:16 PM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
Yeah for sure, I've done a lot of booming on other people's projects, and practiced a lot on my own. I also hate it when I see someone else do it improperly, and the director and producer are unaware of it.

As for using boom mics in the studio, I prefer to do that for ADR cause then the mics match more. It's like doing reshoots with a different camera as oppose to the same one. A different camera for reshoots will have a different look, but you use the same one, and you get more of a match.

I find myself wanting to use boom mics in the studio for the same reason. As for the mics not working if actors are too close, I just have a shotgun mic almost two feet away, to simulate how it would sound while booming in the average shot.

I do this to try to match the rest of the dialogue sound as much as possible for ADR, cause studio mics sound too different from the mics that were used on location, but is that the wrong way?

Richard Crowley May 8th, 2019 08:18 PM

Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
 
Using the same microphone for dialog replacement is always a good idea to match microphone characteristics . HOWEVER note that a long "interference tube" shotgun microphone may not behave the same in a studio environment vs. during principal shooting. For the same reason that a long shotgun is frequently not the first choice for booming indoors. Nearby reflections will interfere with the shotgun microphone's ability to operate properly (discerning off-axis sounds). So, as with most of these things, there is no hard-and-fast rule. You must take all the factors into consideration to arrive at the best solution.


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