Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

Well - I thought I'd do the recording before I rushed out of the door, and what a mistake that was.

Sadly, doing a test with the other one is no longer possible, thanks to me keeping it in a soft Vinten tripod bag for years, which has been fine, but not so fine this morning when the bag was on the floor and I tipped over a heavy flight case which dropped and landed on it. I don't believe glue will be a solution here.
http://www.limelight.org.uk/pic2.jpg
http://www.limelight.org.uk/pic1.jpg
http://www.limelight.org.uk/416.mp3
http://www.limelight.org.uk/815.mp3

I'm taking the pragmatic view that the case could have landed on my foot, rather than on the microphone housing. I hope you all feel my pain. It does though hopefully convince Ryan the noise he hears is not static, or wind. Shotguns indoors just don't have wind problems that cannot be managed. For reference the low frequency roll off switch on BOTH mics is left on off - so it's flat.

It’s shame it broke. Superglue and gaffers tape to the rescue. Nice British accent seldom attach voice with the members here. Good luck convincing Ryan.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay thanks. Sorry for the mistake of it being wind. It doesn't make the same noise with the Zeppelin on though, so I thought it was a wind issue. Could the Zeppelin be correcting another noise that is happening then?

I can do a video later on of it, and upload it.

[Brian Drysdale]

You should consider how your mic is attached to the boom. Are there any sources of contact? Is the elastic supporting the mic damaged or weakened? Are you using different mic cradles when attaching the mic to the boom when not using the Zeppelin? Is the cable from the mic causing a problem?

[Richard Crowley]

How much more useful it would have been to actually aim the video camera at the microphone in question so we could see what we are hearing. Putting up a video clip with no picture just seems remarkably silly.

[Ryan Elder]

Okay sorry, here is another test done with video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5tL...ature=youtu.be

Some of the booms tilts are okay, others have a little noise, and some have quite a bit of noise. It's not a loose windscreen though, cause I took the windscreen off there to see if that would make a difference, but it's still the same sounds when tilting.

[Patrick Tracy]

Originally Posted by Ryan Wray

Okay sorry, here is another test done with video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5tL...ature=youtu.be

Some of the booms tilts are okay, others have a little noise, and some have quite a bit of noise. It's not a loose windscreen though, cause I took the windscreen off there to see if that would make a difference, but it's still the same sounds when tilting.

That looks like the motions correspond to wind noise. To confirm I'd put the mic in front of a fan or other source of gentle breeze to see if you get the same noise without moving the boom. I would think a small foam windscreen that mounts directly on the mic would solve that.

The clunks suggest there's something else going on.

What I'm wondering is if the cable might be generating the noise. Try tapping, rubbing or shaking the cable with the mic connected but stationary. Gently flick the slack near the end of the boom. If you get noise, repeat the exercise with phantom power off.

[Paul R Johnson]

I really think that vocabulary for describing sound needs a revisit. Most of the participants seem absolute on terms, others vary so much and for sound people this is critical stuff.

We have had in the topic some common terms used to ask and answer questions, but some have been misunderstood. Clarity of language is problematic sometimes between us Brits and our Stateside friends, but I guess most of us have got a reasonable handle on the trouble free ones where it is just amusing and more important ones. Pants always makes me smile - as an instruction to quickly frame the one in pants could be er, interesting. Tights and panty hose often confuse too. We can live with hood and bonnet and petrol and gas we can interchange. We've even got bucks and quid sorted - but we use the same technical terms by and large, apart from perhaps jack and phono plugs which can mess things up.

However - some universally get mangled by new people to our area of work.

Hiss
Hum
Crackles
Static
buzzing
whining
distortion
clipping
wind noise
clicks
pops
thumps
bangs
tapping
rubbing
banging
wind noise
electronics noise
data noise
mechanical noise

Some of these continually get used badly. I think I can identify all of these and have my own limits to where one becomes another.

Maybe at some point we should have an audio clip of all this stuff. Until this topic I'd never really thought about how problems we hear are difficult to put down in words. I'm not sure we have quite so many words of description in vision.

[Ryan Elder]

Originally Posted by Patrick Tracy

That looks like the motions correspond to wind noise. To confirm I'd put the mic in front of a fan or other source of gentle breeze to see if you get the same noise without moving the boom. I would think a small foam windscreen that mounts directly on the mic would solve that.

The clunks suggest there's something else going on.

What I'm wondering is if the cable might be generating the noise. Try tapping, rubbing or shaking the cable with the mic connected but stationary. Gently flick the slack near the end of the boom. If you get noise, repeat the exercise with phantom power off.

Oh okay thanks. I tried flicking and tapping the cable but it doesn't seem to be causing those noises, cause when I do it, the noises do not happen. I also tried a windscreen, but you can still hear the sounds, so I thought if it's wind, maybe I need a stronger windscreen than the little one the mic came with.

I didn't try a fan yet, but I tried recording door slamming noises for a scene I am doing and just the door slamming caused the same sound, so I thought it was wind from the door slam going into the mic. I tried solving it by pointing the mic more downward, but it still made those sounds when slamming the door, so I thought it was wind going at the mic.

I can try a fan next.

[Paul R Johnson]

The AT 4053 isn't a shotgun at all is it, just a hyper. When you were recording, could that be the preamp bottoming out when the wind enters the slots on the side? I'm thinking that the gain is up pretty high and the wind sends it over level and instead of the usual wind noise, it's a distorted full level blast. AKG 451's make a similar noise when idiots blow into them before saying one two, one two. If the mic capsule is immediately behind that grill, then this makes it very susceptible to wind. Shotguns having the capsule at the end of the interference tube prevent a direct blast - or at least make it less likely.

What I do know is that if it makes those kinds of noises indoors, it's pretty hopeless to consider using to outdoors. However - the small grill does mean a simple lightweight foam windshield could help no end and not add much to the size.
You sure you don't have the gain cranked up far too high? If that mic was in somebodies hand, say, singing or making an announcement it would be bad at that too - so something odd is happening.

What is the mic plugged into, what kind of preamp gain setting are you using, what are the peaks coming at at, level wise. As I showed in my audio clip - waving a shotgun about is not a problem, but maybe the 4053 has real wind issues. I'd not ever noticed anyone commenting on that, but for booming maybe it's horribly sensitive to wind blast and it responds like you are getting. probably simplest to swap it for a different mic and see if it gets better or stays the same. The blurb says it came with a foam windshield - have you tried this?

[Patrick Tracy]

Originally Posted by Ryan Wray

Oh okay thanks. I tried flicking and tapping the cable but it doesn't seem to be causing those noises, cause when I do it, the noises do not happen.

Doesn't sound like it's a mechanical cable issue. Sometimes you've just got to try everything to eliminate all the possibilities.

Originally Posted by Ryan Wray

I also tried a windscreen, but you can still hear the sounds, so I thought if it's wind, maybe I need a stronger windscreen than the little one the mic came with.

Is it all improved? I would expect at least some improvement.

I think because the capsule is right at the end of the mic body it's getting more exposed motion through the air. A true shotgun capsule is farther back, closer to the axis of rotation, making up for the slightly greater distance with its tighter pattern.

[Ryan Elder]

Okay thanks, it's just I was told that hypers are better for indoors before, so that is why I've been using it indoors, and it does sound better indoors in my opinion.

My shotgun has no problems when booming and does not make any noises when booming from actor to actor.

The pre-amps are turned up to about 80 percent. That is how much I need to get the average actor to reach a level of -12 decibles on the FR2-LE. If I go below 80, I will not be able to reach -12 decibles with regular dialogue speaking on the average voice, in past experience.

As for whether or not those sounds are peaking, some of them reach peaking, some of them don't. However, I cannot turn the pre-amps down because then they will be too quiet to reach -12 on a normal voice.

[Patrick Tracy]

Originally Posted by Ryan Wray

Okay thanks, it's just I was told that hypers are better for indoors before, so that is why I've been using it indoors, and it does sound better indoors in my opinion.

My shotgun has no problems when booming and does not make any noises when booming from actor to actor.

The pre-amps are turned up to about 80 percent. That is how much I need to get the average actor to reach a level of -12 decibles on the FR2-LE. If I go below 80, I will not be able to reach -12 decibles with regular dialogue speaking on the average voice, in past experience.

As for whether or not those sounds are peaking, some of them reach peaking, some of them don't. However, I cannot turn the pre-amps down because then they will be too quiet to reach -12 on a normal voice.

It's more important to avoid clipping than to reach a target average level. The signal can be processed later to make it the right level.

In music recording the target average level is typically -18dBFS, which generally corresponds to 0dBVU on most analog to digital converters. Using 24 bit conversion means there's well over 140dB of available dynamic range, so a signal peaking at -12dBFS (and averaging quite a bit lower) is not in danger of falling into the digital noise floor. The analog noise floor is still quite a few dB above the digital one.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay, I was told before that -12 is a good safe zone, to get away from the noise floor. However, even if I turn it down to -18, that's only 6 decibels lower, and not all the noises the mic makes when tilting the mic, are clipping sounds. The sounds are still going to be heard even if they are -18 decibels lower. They won't be as high in level, but they will still be made while booming though.

[Patrick Tracy]

Originally Posted by Ryan Wray

Oh okay, I was told before that -12 is a good safe zone, to get away from the noise floor. However, even if I turn it down to -18, that's only 6 decibels lower, and not all the noises the mic makes when tilting the mic, are clipping sounds. The sounds are still going to be heard even if they are -18 decibels lower. They won't be as high in level, but they will still be made while booming though.

Solve one problem at a time.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

I don’t get why he can’t troubleshoot these issues. After seeing the video its clear that whipping the mic back and forth that fast is causing wind noise. Just put on the appropriate wind screen and slow down the movements. Every mic has its limitations.