Zoom H6 line out phase inversion problem

[Greg Miller]

Originally Posted by Patrick Tracy

Or use an XLR splitter known to be wired correctly and record the exact same sound to the Zoom and another device.

That assumes you're 100.000% certain that all the XLR cables, as well as the splitter itself, are all wired in correct polarity.

I guess you could try a 3.5mm splitter with one unbalanced microphone, but you'd need to be cognizant of "plug-in-power" issues.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ALSO, is there any chance that M/S mode is activated somewhere in the Zoom? If M/S is activated in the *monitoring* chain, then the right channel input (and right recorded channel) will be inverted at the right channel output. I'm not familiar with the H6 so I don't know whether this is even possible, but it would be one legitimate reason for a polarity reversal in that situation.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

I own the H6 never had an issue. For what's being described, recording a poetry reading, it should be a simple as one mono condenser mic. Even if there was a phase inversion, there shouldn't be anything to conflict. I get the feeling OP has too much time on his hands, creating a "problem" where none exists.

The H6 does have MS setting but if one doesn't know how to properly set it up they shouldn't be using it.

[Greg Miller]

I get the feeling OP has too much time on his hands, creating a "problem" where none exists.

Perhaps the OP would like to have a thorough understanding of his gear, so he can anticipate potential problems before they occur. Is "curiosity" equivalent to "too much time on his hands"? (Admittedly, flipping polarity is trivial in audio software, but still it can't hurt to be aware that this situation might occur.)

IIRC the OP has stated that polarity is *not* an actual problem in this [spoken word] case; but it can affect timbre of musical instruments in some other situations, so he's curious about what's causing it.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Originally Posted by Greg Miller

Perhaps the OP would like to have a thorough understanding of his gear, so he can anticipate potential problems before they occur. Is "curiosity" equivalent to "too much time on his hands"? (Admittedly, flipping polarity is trivial in audio software, but still it can't hurt to be aware that this situation might occur.)

He explained in his first post that he's sending the H6 audio to the camera for syncing. So it doesn't matter if it was inverted, because it's being used as a scratch track. There is also no need to send audio to the camera for syncing since the camera's internal mic would work as well. Even he wants to use that audio whether it's inverted doesn't matter since there is only one sound source. Since I don't see where a problem exists, then all that is left to search for a situation where you can create a problem. You might be curious why a device works the way it does, but since you can't change how it was designed and there is no apparent problem...

[Patrick Tracy]

Originally Posted by Greg Miller

That assumes you're 100.000% certain that all the XLR cables, as well as the splitter itself, are all wired in correct polarity.

I wouldn't assume, I would use a DMM to verify the polarity.

[Geoffrey Cox]

Originally Posted by Pete Cofrancesco

I own the H6 never had an issue. For what's being described, recording a poetry reading, it should be a simple as one mono condenser mic. Even if there was a phase inversion, there shouldn't be anything to conflict. I get the feeling OP has too much time on his hands, creating a "problem" where none exists.

The H6 does have MS setting but if one doesn't know how to properly set it up they shouldn't be using it.

You show your ignorance.

I am not just recording the poetry but the ambience as well at the same time using a stereo spaced pair. It is an outside setting, often quite windy and with visible trees blowing in said wind. Therefore it needs to be in sync so cannot be primarily a separate ambience track recorded 'clean' (though I do some of this as well in between takes for remedial needs). Inevitably the voice is also picked up by the spaced pair as well as the mono mic. I work alone also, so this all needs to be manageable by me in the field and I have to be primarily concerned with filming the poets dynamically and creatively handheld and on the tripod. Good quality sound recording of both elements is crucial to the project.

The reason for looping the audio from the Zoom back into the camera is for a genuine backup as well as scratch synch track. Using the inbuilt camera mics would be useless in the first instance and if very windy, quite possibly useless for the second as well, as the mic distortion could be considerable.

The 'problem' was never couched as such, merely an observation that the Zoom seemed to be inverting the signal.

I have no need to use the M/S setting as I am using a spaced pair.

Got it?

[Greg Miller]

Geoffrey,

That sounds like an interesting project. I have occasionally tried recording ambience for the sake of capturing "nature sounds" (sometimes overnight) but nothing as ambitious as recording poetry at the same time.

Just to clarify my earlier comments ... I am aware that you don't have any *need* to use any M/S setting. I was simply suggesting that if some M/S function is *accidentally* activated, probably in the analog output chain, it *might* cause some polarity problems. I wasn't thinking that you had knowingly turned it on, just wondering if something was lurking in one of the menus somewhere. Obviously if you've already looked through the menus and found nothing, then my comments are moot.

Good luck with the project!

[Geoffrey Cox]

Originally Posted by Greg Miller

Geoffrey,

That sounds like an interesting project. I have occasionally tried recording ambience for the sake of capturing "nature sounds" (sometimes overnight) but nothing as ambitious as recording poetry at the same time.

Just to clarify my earlier comments ... I am aware that you don't have any *need* to use any M/S setting. I was simply suggesting that if some M/S function is *accidentally* activated, probably in the analog output chain, it *might* cause some polarity problems. I wasn't thinking that you had knowingly turned it on, just wondering if something was lurking in one of the menus somewhere. Obviously if you've already looked through the menus and found nothing, then my comments are moot.

Good luck with the project!

Thanks Greg and no worries about the M/S I understood the point.

In all am recording 10 poets who are writing commissioned poems based on the place. Also going to write and record / film some musicians performing music in the woodland to break up the poetry. Also going to do some other creative sound design in response to the texts. So kind of audiovisual poetry / music. Whole film will be about 30 minutes. Recorded three poets so far and am learning best methods as I go.

[Don Palomaki]

You show your ignorance.

Lets please stay civil and polite.

[Geoffrey Cox]

Originally Posted by Don Palomaki

Lets please stay civil and polite.

Pete Cofrancesco accusing me of having too much time on my hands and essentially not knowing what I am doing is not at all civli or polite. Why not pick him up first? His comments were ignorant.and rude.

[Don Palomaki]

Why not pick him up first? His comments were ignorant.and rude.

Perhaps because he did not lead his post with a flame.

Too much poet in the ambience track? Can's that bet mitigated that with different ambient sound mic placement?

[Pete Cofrancesco]

I thought it was rude, but I didn't respond because I wasn't going to get dragged down into a fight.

Right in the title is says "phase inversion problem" and there is none that I could discern. I know the type of person who asks a question and gives limited info. When you make a suggestion they get defensive and add new info, tell you know what you're talking about.

I'm confident in my abilities so I don't feel the need to defend myself. I'm happy to let you believe whatever you want.

[Geoffrey Cox]

'Make a suggestion' like I have too much time on my hands and only need to use one mic anyway even though I explained exactly why I need more and in fact have given plenty of info though this thread yet you shoe in another untrue slight here about me being the 'type of person who gives limited info'. I am reduced simply to a 'type of person' yet you know absolutely nothing about me.

And then you finally say 'there is no problem'. Who are you to say exactly? Nothing you have said has been at all helpful, only the opposite.

Maybe it isn't the done thing to get annoyed when people treat others with open disdain on here but I see no reason I should have to put up with it. And I have posted on and off for years and never once had this problem before.

[Geoffrey Cox]

Originally Posted by Don Palomaki

Too much poet in the ambience track? Can's that bet mitigated that with different ambient sound mic placement?

I work alone so having a pair of mics somehow in a different place is practically unworkable - they have to be mounted on the camera. Also the close synch between ambient sound and image matters quite a lot at times. Imagine a poet standing in front of some trees reacting their work and the wind gets up blowing the branches and leaves, rustling them vigorously as they talk - capturing the synchronised audiovisual dynamism of trees and poet really matters.

[Paul R Johnson]

This is getting rather strange.

If you buy two mics that have pins 2 and 3 reversed, I just cannot imagine ANY scenario when you'd notice the inversion. In fact, I'm not even sure any of our usual tricks of flipping channel polarity would reveal it on any digital equipment clearly because of latency. We cannot use a Y split and test in to out against direct because of the A/D and D/A conversion time. With analogue, we can test and check the polarity. With digital - time domain changes take place that sort of spoil the thing.

All I know is that I have never checked the polarity of any of my current digital audio products - and I also feed audio to cameras and no issues whatsoever have ever appeared to cause me any issues. Even worse - when you do spaced mic recordings for stereo you have even more time delays.

The Zooms may or may not have polarity reversed, but I personally won't lose any sleep not knowing if one or the other of mine have this issue?

Geoffrey's original post said:

I was testing my new Zoom H6 with a Panasonic S5 camera. I connected a microphone to the Zoom input and Zoom line out to the S5 line input so as to have a guide track. I made a recording (i.e. internally on the Zoom and externally via the Zoom line out to the S5) and synched things in post. I worked in Logic so I could drill down right to sample level to get the synch as good as possible.

To my surprise I noticed the audio recording on the S5 video file was clearly phase inverted. If I lined them up exactly I got quite close to complete phase cancellation. I could only assume this was a fault with the input of the S5 or output of the Zoom. I assumed it would be the S5 but tested the Zoom line out on a different device (my laptop using a Scarlett Solo audio interface). The phase was again, inverted.

Is it possible that the real issue here is not phase inversion at all, but just the in to out latency of the zoom? It goes mic-zoom SD card (the A to D) then the output is that digital stream back to analogue - so a few mS is to be expected? Is it inverted or is it delayed?