Steve brings up some interesting points re the Tascam

I understand that it has timecode via the smpte input, but how well will this work in a dv environment where you don't typically have a source of timecode from the dv camera.

broadcast wave files have tc in them but which of the nle's support the import and display of the timecode?

In addition on capture of the audio, which of DV the nle's have the ability to do a capture based on SMPTE timecode that is being presented on a tc feed.

I think the TASCAM is a great unit certainly drops the price for the typical tc dat market. The issue that I see is that most of the dv orientated nle's don't really support audio import with external timecord AFAIK, don't have an easy way to display it, so I wonder if many of the attractive features really have been designed out from dv nle systems based on their lack on practical products for so long.

Granted vegas 6 supports broadcast wave files, but a lot of the automatic lineup functions are dependant on having the timecodes of the video and the audio in sync. In addition if you are in HDV world, as mentioned on other threads the whole issue of even bringing in tc to the nle's is problematic based on the non standard way that tc is imbedded into the various hd formats.

If we had a simpy way say to get the tc out of the typical dv camera, and into the tascam, if the nle had an autoconform which supported capture with external time code, if most of the nle's had the ability to display the tc in the broadcast wave file it would certainly be attractive.

$999 for a high quality recorder with tc is really abreak through. I just wish the rest of the parts of the solution would support it

Sharyn

That's true Keith. As I pointed out before it's a matter of what you're really looking for in a recorder right now. The market is in a heavy state of flux as exemplified by the lack of ability on the part of NLE's to import tc's from anything but video at present. I think these things will all work themselves out at some point or at least I hope they do. Again my big fear is that we will see a big push to make something along the lowest common denominator way of thinking ie the Ipod. Things could be great or they could all become the "SUV's" of the audio world where they look sorta like audio recorders but don't expect them to actually take you to the top of Kilimanjaro in climate controlled luxury.

There are truly portable recorders around and there are semi-portable recorders with lots of functions. Let's just hope both markets mature well and the NLE's keep up with the technology.

BWF files have a TC-based timestamp in the header rather than imbedded TC. When you import them into an NLE that supports them, the software lines up the start of file with the same timecode point on the timeline.

Getting that furshluginner code OUT of the camera to jam to the rcorder on set is a definite hangup, whether we're talking about the Tascam, or other records like the Sound Devices 744T or 702T, etc. I've heard there are devices that can read the code present on the LANC terminal but they're hard to locate and very expensive. The Canon XLH1 is the only prosumer camera I'm aware of that actually has TC in and out and genlock - got to move up into the >10-25 kilobuck ENG cameras to get it otherwise. A practical workflow for the Tascam with the cameras most DV Info users have is to get a TC-aware smartslate such as a Denke and jam-sync the recorder's TC to the slate's master. Meanwhile run video from the camera to the video in on the recorder so the recorders sample clock is slaved to the camera's -that doesn't sync timecode but it does sync the camera and recorder's so the files are at the exact same speed and won't drift out of alignment.

A couple of questions about the Tascam have come up:
1. Does it make a new file each time you press the record button?
Yes unless it is in the retake mode in which case it rewinds to the begining of the last file recorded and over writes it or it is in the append mode in which case it keeps going at the end of the last file recorded.
2. How does one get the time code out of the file and into the NLE? As has been pointed out there is a time code stamp in the header. One can open the file with almost any text editor and locate the stamp pretty quickly. It is in samples from 00:00:00:00, the data are in hex and are byte reversed so there is a little labor to turn them into samples, then seconds, then frames. One then opens the file in FCP and adds a timecode track with the given starting time. Or one obtains a copy of the Sebsky Tools which does all this automatically.
3. How are the preamps? I don't have the full story here but if one records in 16 bit width with the preamp inputs terminated (by the 20 dB pads) the resulting file is all zeros. Thus the preamp noise floor is well below the quantizing noise in 16 bit mode. I can't see what goes on in 24 bit mode because I can't figure out how to open 24 bit sound files in the application I use without truncating them to 16. Maybe I'll figure that out eventually.
4.Where can you get timecode? All the high end Canon cameras (don't know about the consumer models) put time code out on the LANC port (and since LANC is a Sony thing I assume Sony cameras do too) but a format conversion is required to get SMPTE from this. It's a simple conversion (I think the LANC is serial data which only needs to be modulated on a carrier) and there used to be a small, portable gadget (Sweet Pea LTO) which did it but it isn't made anymore. One can buy a relatively inexpensive device to convert LANC timecode to MMC timecode and there are lots of boxes that generate SMPTE time from MIDI timecode but at this point the kit is getting cumbersome. I'm hoping that with the migration of timecode to the prosumer world the LANC to SMPTE converter box will be resurrected.

One would think a sub-$100 LANC to SMPTE converter about the size and shape of an inline mic pad or impedance transformer or perhaps something like a Beachtech's form factor with cables to plug into the LANC on one side and output SMPTE via BNC on the other would be easy to do and a big seller. Any manufacturers out there listening - hello, is this thing on? <grin>

Sharyn, the Tascam has a standard BNC connector for time code sync. It's just like syncing up 2 cameas, genlock out to in, having set both to real time. As long as you don't power down, sync should hold. For people using cameas without genlock, obviously that wouldn't work without one of those Horita gadgets.

Just to clarify a bit: the BNC is a word clock or genlock input. The time code input is an XLR. If the BNC is given word clock the samples are taken synchronously with that clock. If given video or blackburst the sample clocks are generated from and synchronous with the video. This is ongoing i.e. the sample clock follows the reference source. The timecode, on the other hand, is sampled at the beginning of the recording and it is the time of the first sample that is recorded in the header. The ability to reconstruct time code from this stamp depends on a constant number of samples per frame. With video sync coming into the machine this is realized.

Thanks for all the comments. For the user that does not have access to a time code slate, or a box that converts land tc to smpte or an external genloc/tc adaptor, here is what can work.

XL1 is the camera capturing the video, and Sony gv d900 for an example is the unit capturing the audio. (Could be any camcorder in vcr mode with line in) and a mic preamp in my example Beachtek 10, but could be any mixer which is battery powered and has line out.

you take the video out from the xl1, using the remote to turn on data dispaly so that the timecode is displayed on the video out, you feed this into the gv d900, now you have a video feed from the main camera that has time code dispalyed being recorded, you then have the audio input to the gv d900 being recorded.

When you import the audio into the nle via firewire, you then have a video guide track with the timecode being shown in its video from the primary video source.

It is not a perfect solution, but for some people who do not have access to the more elegant time code componants, it offers an alternative.

SHARYN

Steve writes of the MicroTrack, Yes, this little critter has some problems, but as an owner of one who uses it quite often for audio interviews, double system sound with video, and as a backup recorder attached to my Sound Devices 302 mixer, I'd say it's a pretty versatile and useful tool. And in a pinch the stereo T-Mic that comes with it is surprizingly good.

The limitations of the built-in battery can be overcome: you can feed it external power from a battery via the USB port. But this is not a portable solution.

Yes, the ultimate MicroTrack would use AA batteries or a field replacable Lithium Ion battery. Why not design the recorder to use a widely available Sony Lithium Ion battery (Sound Devices did this with their (much more expensive) digital recorders)?

No limiter is a problem (though I hear the chip they use has a limiter function, so mabe a future firmware upgrade will make use of it? one can only home).

But all in all I use it once or twice a week and I'm very pleased, dollar for dollar. Compact Flash for media rocks, and drag and drop of audio files to the Mac is very sleek indeed.

One thumbs up, one thumbs neutral on the Microtrack. Fix battery, limiter, and phantom power issue, and it would be two thumbs up!

The phantom power issue was the deal-killer for me.

If you are talking about a laptop computer, then I agree. But there are a number of USB battery packs out there that I would certainly call portable.

I bought a MicroTrack because my camera (Sony HC3) has no audio input whatsoever. I love the fact that I can record really long sessions - 2 hours nonstop with a 2GB flash card, at 48kHz and 24bits, and potentially more (if I needed more) with more memory. So I am essentially running a dual system for most of my recording, with the extra work to synch audio and video, but the audio quality is very good!

Depending on what mics you need to connect, the lower voltage for phantom power can be an actual problem. I chose my mics specifically for the MicroTrack, though. An alternative could be to add a field pre-amp for the microphones, which I am considering because of the noise added by the MicroTrack when I turn it into the highest gain (the "27dB TRS Boost") - my only real complaint so far about the recorder.

- Martin

There is a USB device sold on Comprehensive (listed along with the Microtrack on their site) that holds AA batteries and will power the recorder. It's only about 20 bucks. Problem is, you start adding these extra things, you sort of lose the reason for having a small, compact unit.

Since I usually use it in one of the following three configurations, it's never been a problem for me: (1) Attached to my Sound Devices 302 Mixer, running Mini-XLR Line out from the mixer into the 1/8" input on the MicroTrack, this makes for an excellent back-up recorder when feeding a camera (since it does not tie up the XLR outs on the mixer) or an excellent double-system solution; (2) Dynamic RE-50 handheld Mic into the 1/4" TRS input for "reporter style" interviews, and (3) using the (amazing for what it is) T-Microphone (included with the MicroTrack) for stereo ambience recording. It all depends on your application. It works for me, it's not ideal, the lack of built-in limiter is annoying to no end, and that, plus not having a user-replaceable battery, is certainly a deal-killer for many. I hope M-Audio designers are reading and taking notes on this board.

Compatablity?
 

Compatability?
Would a hand held interveiw mic such as an Electro Voice Dynamic RE-50 work in combination with a Sony MZ-100 or similar Hi-MD mini disc recorder. Has anyone used such a set up ?

Here's some very good info on the Microtrack:

http://www.sonicstudios.com/mt2496rv.htm


As I posted earlier, I tried the Marantz660 and found it too noisy. I returned it to B&H, and the customer service guy took my order for the Tascam HD-P2. I won't go into detail but there was a screwup in info I got. I had bought the 660 with their new credit plan that allows you to pay off in 90 days. When I didn't get any confirmation of the Tascam order in several days I called back, and a different customer service guy said they couldn't credit that account for me and apply it to a new order, so I would have to wait for the credit for several days...etc....it got to be a long story so I won't go into anymore boring detail. Let's just say it gave me time to think about things and I'm not sure I want to spend $1K on the Tascam at this time for what I want to do.

The thing is, I really need a little hand held recorder for the project. I don't need the Tascam. The deal killer for me on this Microtrack was the low voltage phantom power because I want to use one of my old Sennheiser K3U wired lavs. They still sound better than even our Countrymans. But they use mercury oxide batteries--now banned in the U.S. So I've been using phantom power.

However, thanks to B&H's screwing around, I've had time to check around and just discovered yesterday that finally they are selling silver oxide replacement batteries for the old ones, and they're readily available.

So, phantom power is now a non-issue for me.

Which means I think I'll buy that Microtrack. The internal battery isn't wonderful, but it will be way more than adequate for any recording times I might do with the deck. I'd rather have XLRs, but I can live with the 1/4" inputs.

All the reading I've done about these little handheld units indicate that they're the same thing to the audio world that "prosumer" cameras are to the video world. They have limitations but you can use them quite effectively for many things.

There are some fully pro handhelds out there. This one, for instance:
http://www.maycom.nl/products.html
Scroll down to the handheld picture. Unfortunately I can't find any mention of a U.S. distributor, though it is probably available here through the UK web page.

When the Zaxcom comes out it may be in the same category.

Bill,
Get teh Edirol r-09. I'm using one for all types of things and it's great.
Bruce S. Yarock
www.yarock.com

I second that
The R-09 is the latest recorder an is overall better than any other in it's prize range.

I personally use an iriver which fits me well with it's 20 GB storage as I may at times record for many hours before being able to upload to a PC, and because I needed an mp3 player anyway. For high quality music recordings I use an external preamp though.

With the R-09 no need for an ext. preamp, it's internal mics are good enough for most uses and hence even no need to set up external mics which makes the R-09 the fastest, most easy to use option there is.

What I'm doing is recording interviews using a wired Sennheiser lav. I'm trying to do it in a way that gets audio as good as normal shooting to video would be. The Edirol looks good but only has mini inputs and that bothers me a little. Although that's not as big a deal as it would be when shooting video trying to use one. In most cases the deck will be laying on a table.

Other than not being able to change out batteries, I'm pretty happy with it now that they've had a couple firmware updates. Using it very regularly now, due to size. It also supplies only 30 volts for phantom, which is a problem for a very limited number of microphones.

You might wanna check into this one.

On the other side, while it's a tad big, I'm very happy with my Edirol R4 as well.

Douglas, have you used it with an external mic, via mic input, for voice recording?

Many times. With the 4049 and 4051 on several occasions, and with the 4053 on fewer occasions. The preamps aren't the best, they sound good but at low input levels they're a touch noisy. I've also recorded some street performances with the very low-cost microphone included with the deck, and was very nicely surprised at the quality. Some of the street sounds I captured in Malaysia recently will definitely find themselves in my ambiences library and sound design library. Got some great monkeys screaching at the Bahtu caves, those will be great for making weird sound designs for animals and machinery.

I'm not sure what you mean by low input levels--when you have to crank the gain up?

What I'm trying to do is get a hand held device for recording v.o. interviews that will be used in a documentary. I have a couple of old Sennheiser wired lavs I'll be using. I thought I needed phantom power because the mics are so old they use the now-banned mercury oxide batteries. However, I recently discovered there is now a readily available silver oxide battery replacement. So the mics now have power. They also sound better than even our Countrymans.

Do you think the noise level of the Microtrack would be acceptable for normal conversational voice recording?

I tried out the Marantz PMD660, but it was way too noisy. I'm not looking for studio quality, just normal voice recording that would be as good as what I normally shoot mic-in with a DSR500 and 250. The Marantz wasn't even close to being acceptable, which was a big disappointment because everything else about it was great. In fact, after the 660 experience, I had decided to get the Tascam HD-P2...but I really would like to stick with a handheld for these upcoming interviews. I can live with the 1/4" inputs instead of XLR and I can live with the internal battery, but I can't live with huge mic level noise.

you could check taperssection.com , you have to become member to see the forum though. People there are mostly into taping loud music, but still know a lot about recorders. The R-09 seems to be their prefered toy of lately.

That seems to be the major problem with these handheld recorders: most people want them for guerrilla taping of rock concerts. Mic input noise levels are not so relevant in that case. For recording quiet conversation, you need better noise specs. The Edirol's mini inputs bother me, but if it came out ahead of the Microtrack, I maybe could live with that.

quote from http://www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm:
another quote from http://taperssection.com/index.php?t...5870#msg935870

Yeah, they (soncistudio) say about the same thing for Microtrack:

As-is, Microtrack 24/96 deck seems very good to excellent as an all-in-one recorder for at least self-[powered microphone input field recording,


It's difficult to compare specs on both units with their graphs. I wish the same guy had done both and we could line up each one side by side.

Personlly I don't understand paying for a more expensive piece of equipment when a Hi-MD will do the job almost flawlessly. Nothing is perfect of course and I'm ready for the day when mobile recorders have better pre-amps but for now isn't the Hi-MD about as good as any other device on the market? And because it's older technology it's cheaper technology.

I know there are advantages of hard drive recorders and flash recorders but they aren't that great. When you can record 90 minute on a single disc there isn't too much that will be a problem for recording as far as times go. And MD is pretty robust so it takes a pretty hard lick to make one skip.

Needless to say I bought a Hi-MD when I bought a recorder. I hope someday technology will improve greatly and there are some signs of that. Multi-tracks are certainly a great thing for me. But I think MD is about as good as it gets now for stereo recording.

my personal reasons why I'd prefer an R-09 over an Hi-MD are that there is no need for any special, in this case Sony software to upload and that it has inbuilt mics.
If to your use those are no advatages than I'd also say an Hi-MD is the better option because of being cheaper.

Hi-MD makes very good recordings, their A/C and preamp are very good, and from what I read so are the R-09's.

I've heard the R-09's are excellent and the software is a pain on the Sony's. But still it can be done. I'm sure if money wasn't a concern I'd prefer the R-09's too just because of the software problem.

It is true that Sony has just released a new model that has fewer software restrictions but still too many IMO. It will probably be the last incarnation of MD because of the competition around now. It still forces you to use their software though. What a shame. But it has definite advantages over the old models. But the price is $300. Maybe when it costs $100 I'll buy one.

I think some of the newer HiMDs might even
have individual control of the channels, which
can come in handy for using it as a
two-track recorder and not just a stereo
recorder.

I bought the R-09 to be able to mic the officiant at weddings( in addition to a wireless on the groom). I've also been using it as a songwriting tool-set it on the table,hit record, and start playing.The on board mics are surprisingly good. I did location sound on a 3 day video shoot this weekend on radiology(zzzzzz), and the R-09 was simple to use, and performed almost flawlessly. There were a couple of times when it wouldn't go from pause-record (blinking red) to record (solid red), but after a few clicks, it eventually went to record.
I bought a couple of addl 2 gig sd cards form B+H ($65 each),but only needed one card per day. At the end of each day we transferred to some kind of s l o o ow mac, and it still only took 29 minutes to transfer 1.7 gigs.
The sound was excellent. I recorded in 16 bit 48, out of a sounddevices 302 mixer.
When you consider size, cost,sound quality, ease of use and ease of transfer, there's nothing out there now that compares. I also look forward to using it in the field to capture interesting sounds.
Bruce S. Yarock
www.yarock.com
P.S. And then there's the R-04..... (Only kidding...can't afford it now).

Hi Jeff - is the new sony one you're referring to the MZ-R1 ?
i.e. this one :
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation

curious as i might get a Hi-MD soon.

thanks

Oops--mea culpa--I meant this one, not Comprehensive. Sorry 'bout that. http://www.fullcompass.com/product/320587.html

Just to add more confusion to the mix...
Samson is releasing a new recorder that looks promissing also the Zoom H4:
http://www.samsontech.com/products/p...1901&brandID=4

I already own the Microtrack (bought it when it first came out), and the Edirol R-09.
And preffer the R-09 for eases of use (all functions you need are on the recorder, no digging through menus), better built pre amps, better firmware.
Also the MT was designed with the 1/8 and 10db too hot. Why I don't know, but they are.

The Microtrack does have balanced 1//4 TRS inputs, but I am not doing long cable runs with the recoder, so this isn't a worry to me. if I am doing a long cable run then I would be using my Promix 3 field mixer, fed into my camera and recorder.
Also, the MT, as the ability to do digital pass through, so you canrecord to flash card and also send a signal out via the units RCA's to a wireless or something like that. So that's a nice option if you need it.

I have a pre-order on the H4 unit with sweetwater.com and it should be out sometime in sept. I'm told.

If the H4 performs like I think it might, then my Microtrack will probably being going bye bye.

'only' 20 bucks??...my external battery pack for mt iRiver ( holding 4 AAs ) cost me abt. 50 Cents...( can't tell you any source though, was in a DIY shop in Japan, and I had to solder the plug myself, another 50 Cents there. But cheap and good solutions should be available )

The Sony RH1 is the latest model, display the side of the body only with separate channel level indicators. Earlier models, e.g the RH10, or DH710 and DH910 ( not sure abt. their exact model name ) might do same quality recordings and come with an external battery pack included.

thanks for the info on Hi-MD machines. I think (well in USA anyway) the "DH910" is/was called the "RH-910" (might be different naming for different markets, or maybe just your typo - not sure.)

Yeah that's it. The new software also has fewer restrictions too. I should have pointed that out before. Version 3.4 of SonicStage is by far better than earlier versions.

They are getting very close to what a recorder should be but this is probably as good as it will ever get from Sony. There isn't much of a software hassle at this point but there is still a little. MD is a great technology IMO. It's too bad it will be eventually killed off by the stupidity of Sony and their DRM stuff. It should have been what the iPod became but Sony had their head stuck up their...

I got the Microtrack delivered yesterday, checked it out thoroughly this morning in the audio booth, and it's great.

As I posted earlier, I had bought the Marantz PMD660, but found it way too noisy for my purposes. Then I sort of sold myself on getting the Tascam HD-P2, but things got delayed and I had time to think it through, and decided that for the upcoming project, my first instinct was correct--I needed a small, handheld type unit.

Comparing the clip from the Microtrack to the same thing from the 660, there is a really big difference. You hear too much noise on the 660, almost nothing on the Microtrack. While the Microtrack is not totally silent and sound studio perfect, it is well within any tolerance for shooting interviews. I haven't compared it to the DSR500, but it's obvious that its quality will be at least as good, which is good enough for my project.

I'm using it with an old Sennheiser wired lav that uses the K3U power supply. Until recently I couldn't get batteries because the old mercury oxide batteries are illegal in the U.S. Now there are silver batteries available. The Microtrack only puts out 30v for phantom power, so if you don't have a powered mic, that might be a problem.

I've been comparing the Microtrack to a "prosumer" camera versus a professonal one: You have to go into the menu for lots of things. However, once it's set up, that's not a problem. It's quick and easy to set up. Like a "prosumer" camera, it's a little more user unfriendly than a professional one, but once you learn its eccentricities, you can make it work fine.

Although I would prefer XLR inputs, the 1/4" seem to work well with an adapter cable. I put in a 2-gig CF card, and when I stop recording, it takes about 4 seconds to write the file. Then about 2 more seconds to start recording again. That's about as fast as doing the same thing with a video camera, and you don't need rundown.

I was surprised that it's as small as it is. The photos looked bigger. It's lightweight but doesn't feel cheap. It feels well-built, but I wouldn't want to drop it on a concrete floor. The buttons are nice and require some pressure. It's obvious they've put some thought into that, and you won't be turning on or off something by accident. To delete a file, you press the delete button and get a message asking if you really mean it, so you press it again. No accidental delete there. Same with powering down--takes a couple of button presses.

According to the manual, I should be able to monitor audio levels before recording, but I haven't been able to make that work yet. Either I'm doing something wrong or it's one of those firmware updates they promise. I did the Aug. 1 update, and that was quick and easy.

Overall, I'm pleased. It will do the job I bought it for. I would prefer the Marantz for ease of use and XLR input, but it was too noisy. So I think the Microtrack is a pretty good deal. However, if anybody is in need of a small CF recorder and can wait till the end of the year, the Fostex will be out and also the Zoom. The Fostex looks like the Marantz but hopefully will have useable mic level inputs. There aren't any useful specs published on the Zoom yet.

Mic(plug in power) ?
 

Picked up a Sony H-MD MZ NH700 mini disc for back up sound.I just noticed that on the microphone input plug it reads Mic(plug in power).I intend using the recorder with an Electro Voice RE50/B omni derectional dynamic,non powered mic.Question for all you guys who use the mini disc recorders.
Is there any kind of issue if I plug the above type of mic in the Mic(plug in power)socket?
The last thing I want is to electricaly fry my RE50 or my AT897 shotgun.

unpowered mics need recorder's plug in power
 

As far as I know socalled 'unpowered' mics like your's actually NEED the socalled plug-in powered provided by the recorder in order to function. In case I am wrong - I am no specialist so you may wait for somebody to second me - I also believe that the plug in power supplied are just 2 or 3 Volts ( I don't know the exact figure, you will find at the sites linked below ) and could not harm your mics.

see: http://forums.minidisc.org/ and http://www.minidisc.org/part_Hi-MD_Sony.html

BTW, anybody having mp3 players like an ipod could try this:
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cg...ALK&type=store
gadget to turn it into an recorder.