Your EV MIC is dynamic and does not require any phantom power. Your AT MIC either uses a battery or phantom power.
The Mini disk does NOT put out phantom power, it is a low voltage 3 volts usually mic power that is totally different. You want to make sure that you get an adaptor that has a blocking capacitor to remove this voltage from your mic for best performance. http://www.rcrowley.com/CamAdapt.htm gives you some ideas.

Sharyn

Sorry to correct you, but the "plug-on power" in consumer MD recorders and the like (camcorders too, for that matter) is a mic bias power for cheap consumer electret mics such as are supplied with such gear and is NOT needed by dynamic mics or battery powered mics such as the AT897, nor is it adequate for mics that do require external phantom power. While it's not likely to damage the mic, it can, in fact, contribute to poor performance and should be blocked. Since both the EV-RE50 and the AT897 use balanced XLR connections and the MD recorders mic input is unbalanced, one will need an adapter and the best approach is to insure that the one you use includes a DC blocking capacitor. The problem is figuring out just how the MD recorder mic input is wired. If it takes a TRS mini plug the bias voltage is between the ring and sleeve and a properly wired XLR to mini adapter shorts it out to ground and it ceases to be an issue. But if the recorder takes a mono TS plug for the exernal mic, the voltage is between the tip and the sleeve and you need the capacitor in your adapter to block it. Adapters such as those from Beachtek include the capacitor AFAIK, but sometimes they get left out in a simple XLR to minplug adapter cable. If you're making up your own adapter cable simply wiring a small 10uF capaciter in series with the signal hot lead between pin 2 of the XLR and the tip of the miniplug should do the trick.

no need to be sorry, in the contrary, thank you for correcting.
It is me who should be sorry for posting without knowing. ( For my excuse I had mentioned that my knowledge was limited. )

How did I arrive at this wrong opinion?:
I have a 9 Volt powered preamp to record audio to my iRiver H120 which has a switch to turn on/off plug in power. When I use my self powered AT822 I turn the plug in power off as it is warned aganst using power on the AT822. When I use my non powered Giant Squid Omnis the plug in power must be turned on, if left to off no sound is produced.

I guess that there are many different kinds of Mics and I do not understand their differences and what they require. Dynamic Mics must have a much higher output, yes? I never learned anything about them, they are above my leage.
If there is anything I should know to shed some light on my ignorance or offer a link I'd be very grateful.

Dynamic mics are like a miniature loudspeaker in reverse, a coil mounted on a diaphram moving in a magnetic field generates the signal. They have a much LOWER output than a typical condenser mic - often 10 to 20 or even more dB lower - and don't require any external power at all as there are no active electonic components inside the mic itself.

To compare the output levels, I have a Rode NT1a studio condensor mic that has a rated output sensitivity of -32dB (25mV). In comparison, a typical broadcast studio dynamic mic like the EV RE27 puts out -51dB (3.1mV) while its older brother, the EV RE20, is rated at only -57dB (1.5mV).

Condensor mics have a capsule consisting of two electically charged plates close together. Some have a fixed charge created chemically (called electret, permanently charged, or backplate charged mics) and others require an external high voltage ("true condensor" mics). In either case, inside the mic the capsule is connected to an preamp which itself also needs a source of power to operate. All condensor mics require that power source - the differences are in where they get it. That power can come from phantom power (the same phantom power also generates the charging voltage in a true condensor mic), an internal battery, or the so-called bias power. And that's why your Giant Squids need the power on for you to hear anything - their internal preamp needs it - while with the AT822 the internal battery in the mic is supplying it. But I'm confused - are you saying the power in the I-River must be switched on for the Squids to work even when you're using the 9volt powered preamp? I would have thought that would take over and supply everything the mic needs.

thank's a lot for your explanation Steve, you are very kind.

It is on the external preamp where I can switch line-in-power on or off, and where it must be turned on for the GSmics to work.

The iRiver supplies mic-in-power and therefore both mics work fine when plugged directly into it. I don't even know if it can be turned off on the iRiver but should find out as it could be better turned off when plugging the AT822 directly into it.

BTW I always thought that those Giant Squid Omnis lavs are mic capsules in a casing with cable connection, not more than that. I never thought that there was some circuit - a preamp, called fet?, inside those tiny mics.

What model number of iRiver is still available that can record well, on the open market? Also, what models of MiniDisc have XLR inputs?

I am looking for something inexpensive, $100 range to do some simple voice recording for some very simple short film projects. Doesn't have to be perfect but I plan on shooting Super 8 and laying in the audio (non Xtal sync) in the Avid timeline. If it can do 48KHz, super.

I want to try to aviod carrying my full sized DAT deck out in the field if I don't have to.

Thanks folks,

Sean

The IRivers that you would be searching for would be the IFP 790 or 890 series recorders. And have been discontinued and replaced with a model that doesn't allow mic input recording, but only line in recording. they are available still online on ebay and such, but are becoming harder to find.

Mini disk recorders don't use XLR inputs, only 1/8 mini inputs. And there is no XLR type recorder out there that will be in your $100 range.
The closest to that would be the not yet released Samson Zoom H4 Handy recorder (for $299), which looks pretty sweet BTW (I have one on pre order and already own a Microrack and R-09).

Yep, there one in there somewhere. Circuits with Field Effect Transistors (FETs) can be pretty tiny these days and the one's in a mic like the Squid aren't particularly complicated. Condensor mic capsules are extremely high impedence devices and the main function of the preamp is to bring the impedence down to where it can drive an input circuit.

The iFP-799 and 899 are the 1GB, the 895 and 795 the 512 MB models. They record in mp3 only, have variable bitrate, are chosen for their small size.

Better iRiver recorders are the bigger harddisc players/recorders iHP120/140 and iHP320/340, the 20 or 40 in their name meaning a 20 or 40 GB harddisc. They record in WAV and specially with "rockbox' installed, an open source firmware which is upgraded daily, make very useable recorders with e.g. live adjustable levels and meters.
The iHP1xx series has optical in, the iHP3xx series has colour display and plays movies.

All of the above mentioned are discontinued models but can be found at online auctions.

Thanks
 

A huge thanks to everyone for their help and feedback regarding my original post about MD recorders. My question about microphones and using the (powered) plug in socket for EV RE50 and AT897 has had an incredable amount of response. This Dv info site ceases to amaze; it’s a true font of knowledge.

Thinking more and more about this Zoom H4 I have found on several sites:
http://www.samsontech.com/products/p...fm?prodID=1901

Anyone actually using one yet?

Sean

I don't think the Zoom is out yet. My #1 question
about that one would be how much hiss, or other
electrical noise, does it inject into the recording.

Same here. I find it odd that they don't list any specs.

Samson, generally, is not known for having
low-noise audio devices. I'll let someone
else try the Zoom first. Even the name of
it sounds "consumerish".

I've been thinking to buy either Tascam hd p2 or M-audio micro track, but now I gotta wait for zoom h4. I'd like to have more info about it, but so far can't find any.
I hope somebody tries it soon.

Here's the PDF manual for it if you would like to look through it.

http://www.samsontech.com/products/r.../H4_manual.pdf

Quite a few interesting things in it. Take a look.

thanks for the info Michael, I'll definitely take a look, but since you probably know more than me in this field, would you rather recommend M-audio or Zoom?

I currently own teh Microtrack, Edirol R-09 and ahve teh Zoom H4 on pre order (should have it in a week or so).

Right now today, I would purchase teh R-09 before the Microtrack, no doubt about it.
Can't say about the H4 yet, but it looks very promissing as well, and I wouldn't be supprised if it works just as well as the R-09 and better than the Microtrack.

I'm reallyhappy with my Edirol R-09. I noticed that the Zoom doesn't allow you to record 4 tracks simultaneously. If not, i wouldn't be interested in it.
Bruce S. Yarock

Don't get me wrong, I love the R-09 as well. It's much more intuative and stable than my Microtrack. Yes it's a shame that teh Zoom H4 doesn't have real time 4 track recording, but it does have quite a bit going for it, like the built in balanced dual 1/4 XLR inputs and true 48v phantom power. It's also $100 less than either the Microtrack or R-09.
Of course the real test is how it operates in the field (as I'm real curious to see the quility of the built in limiters and preamps). But I won't know that until I receive my unit.

I'm happy withe Microtrack. As I've posted in other threads, I bought the Marantz 660 first but found it's mic level inputs too noisy to be used for recording voice over interviews. The Microtrack is fine for that purpose. I've been using it with an old wired Sennheiser lav, with an XLR-1/4" adapter. I've recently bought a Sennheiser wireless, the 100 series which sounds amazingly good for such a cheap ($500) wireless.

The Microtrack is a little strange, but once you get accustomed to it, it's OK. You may, for example, think it's charging its battery when plugged in to a USB port, but that isn't happening, and if you leave it plugged in to the USB, it stays on and drains power. I don't have any problem with the internal battery life, but if you plan on recording really long sessions, it might be a good idea to get one of those little USB battery packs. I've seen one at Comprehensive for under 10 bucks that uses AA batteries.

Had I not needed the recorder in a hurry, I would have waited till that new Fostex is available (December). It's the same price and looks the same as the Marantz 660, but presumably it would be useable for normal recording. I checked out the HD-P2 thoroughly and almost bought it, but I wanted to keep things compact for my immediate purposes. We have an older Tascam that looks just like the P2 but is DAT. It's been a great recorder, used for live concert recording as well as shooting double system for video. If I needed to use the Microtrack for double system shooting, I would do so with no hesitation.

The zoom sounds like a good deal if you don't use a mixer (xlr inputs and phantom). But I also bought a Sounddevices 302, so I just run line out into the Edirol when I need phantom and xlr's.
Bruce S. yarock
www.yarock.com

Recently, for larger events I have been using my MicroTrack recorder and a Tascam firewire mixer in combination. The Tascam (FW-1082, which I am very happy with) records the five channels I typically use to a laptop. Meanwhile, I use the MicroTrack to capture the monitor output with the MicroTrack. That way, I have a stereo mix on a second device, which is not just handy if I need sound samples from the event right away, but it also gives me piece of mind in that I know I have a backup should something go wrong with the laptop computer or its software during the recording. After all, stereo sound is way better than no sound at all, should something go very wrong during a live event.

- Martin

I use a (PSC Promix 3) field mixer on certain location shoots like live concert and dance rectitals. And I do the same for my Edirol (run line out), with great results.
But there are many times I want to a much smaller setup and use my matched pair of Rode NT5 mics, which require phantom power or even 2 different feeds (1 board and 1 mic), and the H4 would fit these situations better.

I usually attach my recorder directyl onto a mic stand by using a clamp then either place 2 mics 1 wireless (to my camera) and 1 to my recorder.

By having both left and right inputs, I am able to then take 1 feed from the board, 1 feed of ambiant live crowd mix to my recorder. Then still have my wireless handheld going into my camera.

That is one thing I do like about the Microtrack over the R-09, is that you have separate L/R inputs that are independantl adjustable.

Does the Zoom have L and R independantly
adjustable gain?

According to the manual, it does have independantly adjustable L/R Gain input. the only disadvantge is that it's done internally in the menu, and not on the acutal unit itself like the Microtrack.

Just to add to all this: I recently bought a HiMD MZ-RH1 and I can't say enough good things about it.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ughType=search

It has a rugged aluminum casing (both sides), records uncompressed at 16 bit 44.1 and the recordings are unrestricted, although you do have to use the Sony software, which stinks. It works on a Mac as well, but only for self made recordings.

The best thing though is the controls. All of the buttons are large and easy to find without even looking at the unit. I especially love the record button. The gain controls are excellent as well. You could easily ride them if you had to. The display is on the edge, so I velcro to the outside of my SD302 bag (there's already a patch of 'furry' velcro there for the transparent flap that covers the face) and can see both meters at a glance. It remembers all your settings so once you set it up, it's ready to go and you don't have navigate any menus. We use an AD converter which fits beautifully in the lower part of the bag, and record via optical cable. This is one instance that breaks the rule of low cost, convenience and performance. You get all three with this unit. Can't vouch for the preamps, as like I said, we use an AD converter, but I'll bet it would sound great using the line in, something very easy to do with the 302, which has a dedicated output just for that.

It's all so perfect I'm sure Sony's going to kill off the format any day now. :)

Oh, one other thing -- a field swappable internal battery. Takes five seconds. Awesome.

How's that RH1 feel? Like flimsy plastic?
A solid feel to it?
Are the channels independently adjustable?

Hi everyone, new member here trying to line up all the ducks for a 3-hour conference room shoot this tuesday - I just received the micro-track from B&H, used it to do some room ambience checks at the specific conference room but I'm a bit concerned over the battery thing - has anyone who owns one actually recorded til it died? I've not been able to find a spec on battery life yet, may have to test that part myself in the next few days, since it would be much better NOT to have yet another cord plugged in.

Doing this shoot with consumer DV, both cams have AGC only (yuch) so plan to put a Senn G2/Tram lav on the main guy (instructor), an RE50 on other channel of the micro track, then a Rode Stereo Video mic on one DVcam and a Beachtek DXA-4p with ATM 897 shotgun on one channel and ATM-25 hypercardioid on the other. Will set one DV cam at one side of this fairly narrow room on a tall tripod and hand-hold the other one from other side of the room, so I can later do a "quasi" 2-cam thing in post, with at least one pair of "non-breathing" audio tracks to use.

Sorry for the long post, just don't want to blow this since we'll NOT get a second chance at this material - unless you see some glaring error in the above method, I only need a response to the following -

If you've done a "death rattle" battery test on the Micro-Track, I'd appreciate any comments - thanks... Steve

Nevermind - from here

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_u...2496-main.html

"MicroTrack is powered via long-life lithium-ion batteries. You can record for approximately four to five hours on a single charge (or about three hours with phantom power engaged). Recharge the battery by simply connecting MicroTrack to a PC or Mac via USB, or using an optional power supply."

Sounds like my 3-hour shoot's within reasonable limits (no phantom required)... Steve

Steve my experience of manufacturers statements about probable battery life times for their equipment is that they're almost invariably hopelessly optimistic.
Lithium Ions tend not to reach full capacity until they've gone through 4 or 5 full charge/discharge cycles, so althouh you say that your read "4 to 5 hours" and you think it'll be a 3hour gig, that would.....have me quite concerned i'd run out of juice.

I'd think of a Plan B. - just a thought.

Good point Stu, and since this unit is the only one involved that has manual level control, even more reason for a plan "B" - which in this case is an extension cord to reach beyond the nearest outlet :=) , making the BATTERY my "plan B"...

BTW, it'll be interesting to see just how MUCH pumping/breathing the AGC's on my two Elura's do, since this conference room is on one side of a heavy manufacturing facility and there's a constant LF throb/hum in the room to keep the AGC awake (maybe) - at any rate, this scenario is a perfect use for the NR setup in Samplitude, which I've used in similar cases with excellent success

(Talk about yer serious "room tone")

Thanks for reminding me that most manufacturers seem to think more highly of their products than us poor end users do... Steve

Update on the Micro Track battery life - just ran it in record mode, battery only, with headphones monitoring at full volume, after messing around with gains/wireless stuff, etc - mess-around time plus recording time totaled about 3-1/4 hours (all in record mode with phones driven at full volume) - according to the battery indicator there was still a small amount of life left.

I'm thinking that with phones NOT connected it should meet the claims of M Audio (but I'm still taking an extension cord :=)

Other thing I found was that even a Rode video mic (mono one) doesn't really drive this thing very strong thru the mini input - I ended up cutting back on output from my Senn G2 a bit and using the TRS inputs (only way to use the +27 dB gain up feature) - worked fine; (Left/Lav, Right/Rode) still quite clean on playback(didn't listen on monitors, only phones) -

Using a 4 gig CF card @ 24/48 stereo, total record time reported is 3:55, with max per file of 1:55 (without doing the math, I'm assuming this is the fat32 size kicking in.)

One problem I had with this unit (aside from those already mentioned) is no way to mount it to anything - all that comes with it is a dumb little drawstring bag.

Being somewhat of a "mad scientist" type, I found a piece of scrap stainless steel plate (14 gauge), cut it into an "L" shape, drilled a hole in the narrow part of the "L", and bolted it to the unused handle rosette of my Bogen 501 tripod head - I then used a couple of 1/2" wide strips of industrial strength velchro to hold the Micro track to this bracket - this puts the unit right in front of me when I'm behind the camera. I made the mounting plate nice and smooth so there's no need to even remove it from the Microtrack, I just loosen the wing nut and slip it off the tripod.

Gig's day after tomorrow, hoping for a broken leg :=) ... Steve

"How's that RH1 feel? Like flimsy plastic?"

Not at all. It feels very sturdy and rugged. None of the buttons are flimsy either. The left and right audio tracks are not independently adjustable unfortunately.

by the way, b&h finally got zoom h4, so hopefully well get more info from our forum members...

My H4, sweetwater.com is on it's way to me as I write this.
I hope to have it sometime early next week, and have some feedback comparing the H4, and my R-09 and Microtrack for everyone in a week or so.

From a poster in another forum, it sounds like this thing is going to be the sweet.

Incredible, just had a look at the Zoom H4 on B&H, a 4 track digital recorder for $300....what a steal! I was going to buy the Edirol R-09 but have now changed my mind.

Thanks for the info!

You might want to check into the details on that.
I don't think it does 4 channels at once, if that
is a consideration for you.

You might want to check into the details on that.
I don't think it does 4 channels at once, if that
is a consideration for you.

Just checked the features on the B&H website and I quote:

"Four-Track Recording
Record Multiple Tracks, such as Vocal, Guitar, and Bass, Simultaneously"

So, it should do it but even without that feature its still a steal, it even comes inluded with a 128Mb SD card, all that for $299......