I do have a technical question regarding the output.

The Edirol R-09 has both 1/8" Stereo Mini Headphone/SPDIF Optical Out.

The Zoom H4 only has the 1/8 mini out.

How much of a technical, read quality, advantage is it to have SPDIF Optical Out as opposed to 1/8 mini???

I'm planning to buy the Edirol FA-66 Firewire interface that has an S/PDIF optical input.

It won't do true 4 track recording.
You can select either stero recording to record to 2 tracks, or select 4 track recording to record to 2 tracks, and then record again to 2 tracks for mixdown. So you could record guitar. drums on 2 tracks, and then lay down the vocal to go along with it. Not a true 4 track recorder.

Michael L: has your unit arrived yet, and have you had a chance to put it through its paces..? Of interest to me are the unit's mic pre-amps' quality, the quality of the built-in mics themselves, and how much flexibility there is in adjusting the recording level (variable, or stepped..)?
Many thx,Rgds, Ross.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'd also love to know how reliable the phantom power is...

JP

Check out http://taperssection.com/index.php . There are lots of posts and links on how to add portable external power to the MT2496. As far as phantom power I plan on getting a Rode NTG-2 which allows you to put 2 aa batteries in it. Mainly for my HD100, but can be used with my MT2496 also.
The included stereo mic is pretty good for close up interviews. Surprised me at least.

I did receive my H4 yesterday, I did get a chance to play with it a little bit last night and this morning, not much as I would like as I had company come in from out of town.

Here's a quick synopsis:
1. The huild seems very sturdy. It's larger but more substantial than the Edirol R-09, and about the same size as the M-Audio Microtrack.

2. I like the quick push recording format buttons on the front of the unit. Makes for quick format selections. Once you start recording you can't change recording format, without stopping the recording process. (which is a good thing).

3. Recording is the same as the other units (R-09/Microtrack), push once to go into standby (button lights up and blinks) and once more to record (button stays lit). To stop recording you just push record again, and the file writes to the card. There is a slight 2 second delay to stop the recording after the button is pushed.

4. The menu, is more confusing than the R-09, but no more than the Microtrack.
You push the menu button to enter various modes. Here you can redo your recording format (default MP3 is 44/128), but you can change your bitrate in the menu to go up to 320 or VBR. It doesn't seem to allow you to select 48hz MP3. Also in the menu you can rename/delete files (easy to do), as well as setup your recording format (Stereo or 4 Track).

5. Press down on the menu button to enter your input menu.
Here you can:
a. Select, mic source (onboard, Dual channel (2 XLR inputs)),
b. Recording levels
c. Phantom power
d. Monitor (This is good. You can either have this set to OFF and you can only monitor the unit while it's recording, or select ON and be able to monitor your recording levels all the time, as well as setup your recording levels without having to put the unit in standby), Auto Gain (which I wouldn't use myself),
e. Mic Model (can only be set using the onboard mics. Select from 5 different manufactured mic characteristics)
f. Compressor/Limiter (As far as I can tell you can only use the built in limiters using the onboard mic).

6. Onboard mics:
I like the onboard mics better than the R-09, as they seem to be less sensative (more directional) and produce less noise than the R-09.
I also really like that you have the ability to set the Gain with a flip of a switch (L/M/H) depending on your recording situation.
L (Low, is for loud situations of line in recodring), M (Medium, is for moderate recoding situations, and H (High, is for very quiet situations, and produces the most white noise). I would most often use L or M settings using the onboard for reception live music recording. The L setting is very quiet and the M setting is pretty quiet as well. I would normally use an external mic on a mic stand and attach the recorder to the mic stand as well.

7. The level meters seemed a bit sluggish, and maybe that can be fixed in a firmware patch.

As I said I haven't really had a chance to see how it handles very loud reception situations. But from my quick tests, it seems that it would handles them with flying colors. Especially since the unit has auto onboard gain, where you can do a quick scan of your environment (Live band sound test), and the unit will use the onbaord limiters to prevent clipping, (Very nice).

I hope to get a chance to try out the oboard compared to the XLR inputs using my AT822, and my matched pair of Rode NT5's (With 48v phantom).
You can't adjust independant L/R channels using the onboard mic, but you can when you use external mics.

I am also going to see if I can do passthrough (like the Microtrack) to my wireless using the line output 1/8 port.

There are ways to get external power to the microtrack via YSB battery box, but it's generally a pain to do, as you have to account for another way to attach or mount your battery box to the unit.
This was one flaw with the MT recorders. I will be selling mine if anyone is intersted. Along with many custom built cables from Soundprofessionals.com.
It records and works great, but I already have an Edirol R-09 and now a Zoom H4 which I like better, and don't need 3 recorders.

I just ordered this...
http://www.bixnet.com/5v7libapa.html

from bixnet.
If it works, it will not add much to the size or weight. For 69.99 it's worth checking out. I wouldn't get one of those big battery sleds, sort of defeats the purpose.

Joe, I saw the battery sleds, etc - ended up just using the internal battery since the gig got shorter before it started, ended up about 1:45 or so instead of 3 hours.

On the other hand, I had a really strange problem I've STILL to find time to chase down - the MT recorded the first hour fine, I hit record to stop it - changed both DV tapes and restarted, the MT STOPPED recording about 20 minutes into second hour. I hit record again, thinking I'd bumped it accidentally - the unit did NOTHING. Tried 2 more times, then became glad I had audio coming into both cams...

The unit STILL won't record, it looks like it is but no change in track time readout, it just increments file #'s, period. Oh, BTW the battery indicator showed about half power when this happened, it was 'way lower than that on my other test with no prob.

Tomorrow I'm gonna try a different flash card, maybe this low priced 4 gig card has a problem - at least, the two files I got were good - as for the rest of the sound, Samplitude's gonna get several of its goodies dusted off before I'm even close to happy (background noise, + pumping of camera's AGC mainly)

Soon as I find out why the little bugger quit I'll be back... Steve

OK, quick update on the "on strike" syndrome - I tried a different CF card, records OK. Tried the "bad" card (Sandisk standard type1, 4 gb), and STILL no record - unit would "pretend" to record, but no time increment and when I pushed the record button again, it would claim to be "writing file", then would revert to showing just the two files already ON the card. Checked this card in a different reader/computer, and it showed less than half full.

I then reformatted that card (in the MT2496) and tried to record - IT WORKED.

Wierd thing is, I had recorded nearly TWICE as much info on this SAME CARD the night before the gig, with no problems. I then erased those files (did NOT reformat, wonder if there is a bug in the OS (v1.0 firmware at that time) that required you to FORMAT the card after erasing large files??!?

If there's time tonite, I'm going to re-record that card nearly full with large files (or until it quits) then delete them and try to record again - if that doesn't work, I'll FORMAT the card again - hopefully this will point to a solution (like, ALWAYS use a freshly formatted card??!?)

Man, I really WANT to like this little guy, but... Steve

BTW, firmware is now the current 1.4.3 as it was during the gig, so may reinstall 1.0 to see if the problem still exists.

Michael thanks for the info.
I had a chance to take a quick look at H4, at one of the video shows on Long Island and it seemed very nice, in general.
I might actually end up buying H4, instead of renting some high-end recorder for my short...
Vic

Quick question for everyone (regarding audio recorders) :

Do any of these digital recorders allow you to plug in TWO mics (one vocal, one for guitar etc) and then mix the levels ?

In other words, do any of these recorders have the ability to be a simple mixing desk as well as a digital recorder? R-09 - can it do that?

I have an iRiver IHP-120 which works great for taping bands from the mixing desk, but i'd like a recorder that will allow me to connect two inputs (mic in / line in) and mix the levels as for travelling having to transport a small mixing desk has weight & bulk issues.

Any advice on this is GREATLY appreciated.

Failing a suitable compact "mixer/recorder" device, if someone could suggest to me a SMALL mixer (not too expensive!) that i could use instead that would be great.

thanks

Behringer has some small mixers in the $100 US range that might do, including a couple of battery operated models as I recall.

thanks for the recommendation Steve. I'll check them out.
But you don't know of a small digital recorder that can take two Line or Mic inputs and adjust the levels of those two inputs separately prior to writing it to a WAV or MP3 file? an all-in-one unit would be great.

The new Zoom H4 has seperate dual 1/4/XLR inputs that can be independantly controlled. The microtrack also enables you to plug in 2 devices using the 1/4 trs inputs, and also allow for independant L/R control.

Both of these units have phantom power capability, but only the H4 allows for true 48v phantom.

The R-09 only allows for 1 input and does not have independant L/R level control.

Now keep in mind, that these are very small audio recorders. For something more substantial look at the Edirol R-4, Fostex FR-2, Marantz PMD670 and such.

I really don't know for sure. Perhaps the M-Audio Microtrack 2496 - you can check their manual online at the M-Audio website. Or go a little larger with the Tascam HD-P2 flash recorder.

I have the Microtrack, and yes, you can adjust each of the input levels separately.

I know of this one which runs on four 9V.

http://www.behringer.com/UBB1002/index.cfm?lang=ENG

Might want to check if the phantom with battery
powering is the full 48V or if it goes down to 18V.

I heard of a guy who has one and he says
it's alright. I think it's in the $100 to $200
range.

Also, for the MT2496, I would recomend mics that will let you use batteries in them as oposed to ones that require phantom power.

Hmm...if all you need is to adjust the levels of 2 mics individually, resp. each channel separately, your iRiver iHP120 can do it, that is if you run it with Rockbox - which I highly recommend ayway. It gives you live mic level meters and live separate channel mic level adjustment. you can choose if you want to adjust both together or any individually:
http://www.rockbox.org/

thanks so much for that Andreas.

Last question - can Rockbox let me adjust input levels when i am recording via LINE IN ? The iRiver firmware i have (1.40E) doesnt let me do this which is pretty annoying as i keep clipping the signal off a mixing desk and theres nothing i can do currently.

Yes, live level adjustments with LINE-IN recording under Rockbox.

I do not know how it compares to the mic-in recording under the original firmware because I had installed Rockbox the day I received the player. In fact I had chosen the iHP120 because in various forums I had learned of it's very good recording ability when used with Rockbox. I had not been disappointed, I love it.

I can't explain the details, but you will get all your questions answered at taperssection.com, a forum dedicated to audio recording where many use the iRiver iHPs. E.g. check iRiver H1xx taper's FAQ:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,64277.0.html

Even it's AGC seems to be useful, 'Petur', a developer of Rockbox explains it in another thread, http://taperssection.com/index.php/t...068.0/all.html in post #156 as follows:
here the main recording setting choices under Rockbox:

format: PCM Wave/RIFF/WacPack/MPEGlayer3
bitrate: 16/24/32/...../128/160/192/224/256/320 kBit/s
frequency: 44,1kHz/22,05kHz
source: internal mic/line in/digital/FM radio
channels: mono/stereo
file split options: ...various...
prerecord time: off/1sec/2sec/....30sec
clipping light: ....
and more.......

AGC settings to choose:
safety(clip) / live(slow) / DJ-set(slow) / medium/voice(fast)
or the AGC times 200ms/400ms....1s,
and various 'trigger' settings ( which I don't know what they are for )

while recording you can adjust the levels on the recording screen ( pics of it in my last post ) starting from -64dB in 0,5dB steps up to 48dB.
As far as I know all the way the gain is 2/3rds analog, 1/3 digital.

Please refer to the Rockbox manual, also for instructions how to install:
http://www.rockbox.org/manual.shtml

check also:
http://www.misticriver.net/forumdisplay.php?f=135

Even with Rockbox installed you also can choose to boot your player with the original firmware.
There are bugs reported now and then, but I have not had any problems.
I am sure: Try it and you will love it!

double post..see below

Rockbox does line-in recording
For the H120 has not been officially released which means there may be bugs...but no question, if you record Rockbox offers huge improovements and you should get it.
( sorry for 3 posts in a row, while editing the original post with the very slow connection I am battling here it happened that the same post had been sent 3 x and I edited later )

Hello,

I read some reviews that stated that the battery was a weak link. One guy had to replace the battery just after the 90 warranty ran out and had to pay almost $100.00.

The company states that the unit will run for 8 hours (3 hours using phantom power). How long will this unit record for in your experience?

How long does it take to charge?

Can you run it with a power supply off of AC or and additional external battery pack?

Thanks!!!

I would suggest writing off the Microtrack 2496, the battery is the weak link, lack of full Phantom power voltage was an issue (but less so since I mostly used it with my Sound Devices 302 mixer) and all these problems vexed me for the whole time I owned mine, and then it just up and died on me, kaput, it really bothered me I could not use rechargeable AA batteries with it, so now I"m looking for another recorder, and the replacement, given my experience, is not going to be a Microtrack.

You can power the Microtrack through the USB port, you can plug in it's Charger which powers it through the USB so you can operate it off any USB power source and not drain down the battery. There are several battery packs designed for powering iPods through the USB that could be used with the Microtrack as an extra battery pack.

One good thing that came from the Microtrack dying is that I started using my MacBook Pro laptop with Boom Recorder as its replacement while I decide on another small recorder, and it has been wonderful to work with Boom Recorder, the interface, the metadata, everything about it is so right for recording (except the weight and size of the laptop).

Thanks for the reply David.

What small recording unit are you looking at?

The Tascam is a bit big and pricey for my Run-n-Gun needs, and the Maranz have noisy pre-amps according to what I have read.

What unit will give Great/outstanding quality, have I/O flexibility, run on replaceable batteries, and have a small footprint so as to maybe even strap it onto the camera??

I know I'm asking for a lot, but there just might be a unit out there that fits the bill... and I bet we'd all like to know about that :-)

Thanks Again!

You can buy a modified Marantz 660 from the Oade Brothers Audio that upgrades the whole audio path to eliminate any hiss and enhance the overall sound quality of it.

http://www.oade.com/digital_recorder...D-660MODS.html

They also sell a modified Fostex FR-2LE, which is slightly larger, with even better sound.

http://www.oade.com/digital_recorder..._upgrades.html

...Beyond this, you are into a Sound Devices 7xx series recorder, starting at almost 2 grand, but this is a state of the art recorder.

Thanks again for the info!

My immediate budget is more in the $300 - $400 range. For a little more than some of these mods you could get the Marantz PMD-670, which has 5dB better Signal-to-Noise Ratio.

the mods don't specify what the end result Signal-to-Noise Ratio is... whould you fathom a guess?

I purchased the Edirol R-09 tonight under the agreement that if I didn't like the audio quality I could bring it back. I made the guy check to make sure that there wouldn't be a restocking fee as he stated, but he found out that there would be a 15% fee, so I opted out until I could check with you guys to see if this unit was good enough quality wise and quiet enough from a pre-amp perspective.

At $399.00 this isn't cheap so I would like some feedback.

Other than that, I think I'll wait for a job that will justify the Tascam HD-P2, which I heard some great reviews for.

Again, your opinions are important to me and I appreciate them!

AM

Some of the Oade modes appear to be resisters across the mic input to reduce the sensitivity by 10db, thus their claim of improved signal-to-noise ratio. Would be good for rock concerts, ie: PA type recording.

If you read the Oade website, mods and parts are chosen "by ear".... Whos Ear? I would like to have documentation to go along with any modification, wouldn't you??

Tascam good unit.
How about Fostex FR-2LE?

http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm

Doug Oade will never say what he is using. When he replaces ICs, he makes sure that you cannot make out what part he is substituting. That's just they way he is. He doesn't want to let the cat out of the bag, so to speak, about what he is doing to the unit.

Wayne

I am wondering, when comparing recording in 16bit 44.1KHz, has anyone noticed a big quality difference between the Edirol-R09, a minidisc recorder like the MZRH1, or something cheap like the XtremeMac MicroMemo?

I'd love to save $300-$400 and not have to buy an Edirol or MZRH1 if I can get the same kind of quality out of a MicroMemo.

I have high quality mics, so I guess what I'm wondering is how comparable the pre-amp quality is across these products. Anyone have any advice?

That limits your choices quite a bit.

I bought a Zoom H4 last year, and despite a few limitations, it's a pretty good unit for the price.

I built an 6 C-cell external battery pack for it for $10, which runs the H4 and powers one 48v phantom mic for 28 hours.

I owned a PMD-670 for 2 years, and just sold it last month. I would not recommend this unit for any type of ENG/EFP work because of it's noisy pre-amps, and fairly awkward control system.

There are lots of recording samples using these units on the taperssection.com website. My guess is that you would probably be looking at a true SN ratio of 70+ dB from one of these modded units.

My Marantz PMD-670 had a true SN ratio of 50 dB using it's pre-amps powering a 48v mic, and 65 db using the pre-amp from a Sound Devices MM-1 unit. ( the Zoom H4 does slightly better in the same situation )

Right now I get by with the Zoom H4, while I save to buy a Sound Devices 702 recorder. ( true SN ratio 100+ dB )

Originally I was looking at getting a Tascam HD-P2, which has a true SN ratio of 90+ dB, but I also want something small, so I am waiting until I can afford the SD 702. ( I might even go for the 702T model, so I can connect a digital slate to it )

Hello again Guy,

Well you have been extremely helpful as has everyone else.

I think I am going to wait for the next gig and then go for the HD-P2. From everything that I have read, it provides a great value and quiet preamps.

In the short term (today or tomarrow) I think that I'll get a portable, battery operated mic preamp to boost my line level.

Correct me if I am wrong (I am no audio engineer) if I use a good mic preamp to boost my line input, I can lower the gain on my camera to below the "Hiss Floor" and this should provide for a very clean recording and maybe a fatter sound.

A preamp should be a lot quieter... True?

Any recommendations?

Thanks again!!!!!

Anthony: You are correct. If you place a pre-amp in the circuit that has a low SNR (signal-to-noise-ratio), You can raise the sound of the microphone and lower the amplification on the camera. However, just be aware that every device has noise, the noise is an additive quantity. If you have a noisy signal going into the pre-amp (high self-noise on the microphone), that noise along with the desired audio are both increased in the pre-amp. If the pre-amp has a high noise level, then that noise is added to the signal. What you end up with before you put it into your camera is noisy, then add in the camera noise... anyhow, you get the picture.

But generally as a rule, you want to run the hottest signal you can into the camera without going over 0 dB. One of the advantages of the older analog mixers/pre-amps was that you could go over 0 dB and not destroy your signal. In the digital realm this isn't true. You go over 0 dB and you get those nasty digital pops that are nearly impossible (if not totally impossible) to get rid of in post.

Good luck!

Wayne

I've rented it a few times, and was amazed how much better it was than my Marantz PMD-670.
( I've heard that the PMD-671 has fixed many of the problems of the PMD-670 )

This is what I bought a Sound Devices MM-1 pre-amp for. ( it's also a good boom-op pre-amp )

Yes. Try to work at line-levels if you can, provided your camera can accept a line-in signal.

The Sound Devices MM-1 pre-amp I mentioned above would be my first pick if you need to keep to a limited budget. At some point I plan on buying a Sound Devices 302 mixer, but right now I can't afford the extra expense.

I bought a Marantz 660 because I wanted a small flash recorder, but it was way too noisy and I sent it back and got the M-Audio Microtrak, which is fine for my purposes, though it has 1/4" phono jacks instead of XLR (at least it's not 1/8" mini). I also checked out the Tascam HD P2 and really like it but didn't need that much deck. I don't think you can go wrong with that one.

Ar great risk of beating this thread to death, I will mention I used the new ZOOM h2 for the first time last weekend as a backup to the camera audio while filming a jazz quartet in a club.
Just using the built in mic with the 90 degree spread at approx. 10 feet from the stage, the audio was fantastic. The sound man, and two of the musicians (discriminating ears) were impressed. Very easy to operate and at an affordable price point.

jon

I'm currently considering the Zoom H4 as a replacement for my dead as a doornail Microtrack, however, I'm really liking this recording straight to the laptop business I've been doing as an alternative, but alas, I'm going to need something small and portable. The H4 is a strong contender, I like the XLR inputs. And unlike the Microtrack, it runs on two AA batteries, much better design choice than the *&^%^$ Lithium-Ion battery built into the Microtrack.

Hey Guys, Thanks Again!!

You have been so helpful to me. I really appreciate being able to access your great knowledge and practical experience!

AM