Digital audio recorders?
 

Whats the best digital recording device to use for backup sound? I'm looking at purchasing something to use for backup sound as well as recording interveiws,with lav mic etc. I have heard many differant oppinions,Mini disc recorder, i river, i pod ,digital voice recorder etc.I have hired a Dat recorder on occations,but found it expensive and cumbersome .I am looking for something that's small,reliable and will record quality digital sound .What have you guys found works the best?

I've been using a portable mini disc recorder for years and I'm very happy with it.

Edirol R-09. It's fantastic.

Bruce S. Yarock
www.yarock.com

Mini Discs
 

I have a portable mini disc recorder but would like to know the best way of transferring the sound to a PC. I am currently using the XL2 for a digital pass through.

Thanks for the information guy's.

I use the HHB 500 minidisc and think it is great. I also have a Marantz 670 CF recorder that is nice. But I really want a http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation

The latest generation of MD are able to upload to a computer in digital form. They also record in uncompressed format. They are called Hi-MD. The price of Hi-MD is lower than the Edirol and the quality is very hard to beat. IMO there is no competition for what you describe at this point.

The flash memory recorders that record in uncompressed format will likely eventually surpass the Hi-MD but at this point when you compare price and quality Hi-MD is the clear winner.

iRiver recorders are cheap when you can find them and they record pretty decent sound but they are not the quality of a Hi-MD. I have seen comments from people who own both and they say there is no comparison in quality.

I have a MD recorder. They are nice machines but they are very much inferior to Hi-MD. I expect to be getting a Hi-MD soon. I see Hi-MD recorders sell on eBay for under $100 on a regular basis. That deal is very sweet IMO.

I use a Casablanca system and simply connect the mini disc via line out to the L-R audio input ports on the system. Presumably you could do the same if your PC audio card has phono/RCA inputs ?

for dialog, i use a Marantz PMD670, records to CF cards - love it. get em on ebay for decent price (got mine there almost brand new). when used with highest recording settings 48k/16bit/pcm/wav and a nice low self noise mic (recommend a good condensor), almost zero hiss... better recording this way than by using the same mic into the xlr's of the xl2 (which are still pretty decent)...

but there's a little trick when you set up the 670 - if you're interested - let me know and i'll eloborate...

good luck

but if your budget can allow for it the fostex fr2, sounddevices 722, are superior...

you could check out: http://taperssection.com/index.php ( must become member to view though. )

my view with minuses and pluses:

Hi-MD ( only Sony HiMD, don't even consider other MD recorders! ): very good quality recording (+), records to HiMD discs of 1 GB, must use Sony software for file transfer ( - )
iRiver H120/140 H320/340: with Rockbox firmware very useful recorder, live levels, life adjustment etc...but quality of analog/digital converter and preamp inferior to the HiMD (-), have inbuilt 20 or 40 GB (+)
Edirol R-09: the new love affair of the stealth recorders, very good quality recordings arguably same as HiMD ( + ), quite good inbuilt stereo mic ( + ), record to max 4 GB SD cards, prize high ( - )

You can probably find some good portable DAT recorders around, even on eBay.

I have had a nice Sony model for years. I use it a lot with my Sony parabolic microphone for bird recordings.

If you don't mind using another tape machine, they are fun to use and the sound quality is very good. I never liked the old 12-bit mini discs, but if they have a new higer quality version out now, that might be a way to go.

Please tell us more. I like my 670, but I find the menus, options and defaults a little complicated. Any tips to improve it's use in the field would be helpful.

hey Glen - been busy, but here it goes,
& some of this i'm sure you know, but i'll try and cover the bases...

i'm coming straight from my AKG into the xlr-in (L) on the PMD670...

Menu:
Algor/file:
Stereo/PCM/48/wav

Input Button Selections:
Input device and Channel:
to DLmono w/Mic input - DLmono records regular levels on the left
channel, and the right channel is reduced by -15db. this acts as a
safety, in case someone yells or levels get to high for channel one
(L).
Recording Parameters:
Stereo.

Here's the problem as i see it when people are reporting hiss... if you use DLmono, and use the "mono" setting (seems intuitive), regardless of whether you set it to record PCM/WAV/48, the recorder defaults to an MP3 (compressed) recording - more hiss... if you use "stereo" in conjunction with DLmono, it will record in the highest settings of PCM/WAV/48 (uncompressed) if you used these settings in the first place - hiss is almost non-existant...

and of course use a good condensor mic...

any q's, just ask,
Lonnie

Moved from XL2 to NHT.

How did M-Audio's microtrack 24/96 ever pan out? The ~$350 flash recorder? Might make for a nice little backup recorder if it is half decent.

Tim

Nice recorder with some problems - my biggest caveats are limited battery life and the batts can't be changed in the field - internal fixed batt only in other words. And the mic phantom power is only 30 volts, eliminating your abilty to use some of the better condenser mics that require the full 48v power.

The best recorder would probably be the Deva- http://www.zaxcom.com/audio/devas.shtml

He did ask what would be the best...

Thanks Lonnie. The fact that the recording mode defaults depending on input was confusing. I have always found the 670 to be clean on the input. I know the smaller Marantz (650?) has a reputation for noisey pre's.

Have you ever has a CF card lock up during record? I have. Not fun.

Thanks for you info.

hey Glenn,
no lock up yet - knock's on head - and no problem... yeah i discovered the default quite by accident, did some reading of others reporting hiss, and figured it out...

as clean as the xl2 is at audio, my 670 from a boom is cleaner...

good luck!

Boo. That really sucks. I wonder why they hamstrung such a potentially good recorder with that?

I record audio to my laptop thru an Edirol UA-1X USB interface. It has L+R RCA inputs from the mixer/amp, and then record onto the laptop using TotalRecorder. One leaves it running for the full duration of the event, and the files are in wav format and can be sliced and editted in Sound Forge later and brought into Vegas as needed.

I have thought of MD/flash but since I'd rather get a better camera (or 2), recording digital audio onto laptop is simple and can be "almost" forgotten. Just got to make sure laptop is not "grabbed" by persons unknown!

I have a bunch of voice over interviews to do for a documentary, and I bought a Marantz PMD660 from B&H. It was delivered Monday, and yesterday I brought it in to check it out in our audio booth.

It was a big disappointment. Major mic level input noise. I went back and found Lonnie's post about how he managed to reduce noise level in his 670, and I tried that. It did, indeed, reduce the noise level quite a bit.

Unfortunately, it didn't reduce the noise enough and it was still too high for me to use. I'm not one of those professional audio guys who needs totally clean pristine sound on everything. For my current project, I just need it to be as good as what I record with a DSR500 and a DSR250. The PMD660, unfortunately, didn't make it.

It was really annoying, because the recorder itself is perfect for what I need to do. Perfect except that the mic input noise makes it unusable for me. I'm not doubting Lonnie at all--I think the extra 5 db S/N ratio on the 670 must be what makes the difference between it and the 660.

B&H is very good about returns. I sent it back today and after they get it on Friday they'll send me a Tascam HD-P2. I went ahead and popped for the extra 500 bucks. I figure with the time code feature and XLR mic and line inputs, that will make it pretty easy to sell after this project is over if I don't need it anymore.

If anybody is in the market for a small handheld type CF recorder, I strongly advise waiting, if you can, until the end of the year. Fostex has one coming out in December, and Zaxcom has one that should be out soon too. It's a good guess that both of those would be perfect for my needs.

Unfortunately, I can't wait. I was supposed to start recording interviews this weekend, and I can't push it beyong another week. So the Tascam it is.

I considered the M-audio also, but it had too many weaknesses, which have been discussed already (internal battery, lack of 48v phantom power, etc.) The other similar units only have mini jack inputs, which I can't use with any confidence.

I would gladly have paid a little more money for a better quality hand held recorder. I'm not too thrilled with having to go with a bigger one, but the quality tradeout wasn't do-able. And, now that I think about it, everything is going into an old canvas briefcase anyway--the recorder, extra batteries, the mic (an older wired Sennheiser lav) which lives in a box about a foot long, with all its attachments, extra audio cables, notepad, second 2 gig CF card in its box, etc.--so as long as the recorder fits into the bag, I guess it doesn't make much difference that it is bigger.

In considering a recorder, I surfed all the boards and got some positive as well as seriously negative feedback on the 660. I don't doubt that some people find it acceptable for their use, but in my case it wouldn't work. The negative feedback was useful in that, although I had to try it out for myself, it made me wary enough so that I unpacked everything very carefully and was able to return the package in perfect shape. If you rip up your packing materials and the item comes back looking used, then B&H isn't quite so friendly about the return.

I guess the moral of this story is that you really do need to check out things for yourself. If you have to buy something sight unseen, then always go with a reputable dealer like B&H or the other appropriate ones who are sponsors on this board. And, be sure to look at their return policy. On professional audio gear, for example, you only have 7 days with B&H.

I would not over look using a dv camcorder as a field audio recorder.
Consider you get 48khz 16bit WITH TIMECODE and the ability to transfer via firewire a digital file. For years we have used a back up camcorder for field audio recording and at the prices these days it is hard to beat. A G DV300 for instance with the Beachtek 10 preamps/phantom power to line box makes an excellent alternative. A camcorder, again with the Beachtek in VCR MODE, give you recording, timecode and allows you to have line level in , by pass the usually poor on board mic preamps.

Just a thought

Sharyn

The Tascam recorder does all that with better preamps than most camcorders, plus you don't accumuilate headwear time on your camera if you're only recording sound.

I would probably do this if I had a small camera, but the only ones I have are full size.

My suggestion was to get a small dedicated camera for the audio. I think the whole issue of heads wearing out is overblown. I would be interested to see how many people on this forum have had to get rid of a camcorder based on heads wearing out. The advantage of using the camcorder is that it is recorded in the same format as your dv recording, it has firewire for transfer, it has time code and since you use it in vcr mode you can use it with any mic preamps you want. Again just a suggetion, but from a size, weight and cost stand point, there is some attraction. IMO it is certainly a better quality suggestion than mini disk. Dat's at the low end have proven to be pretty unreliable, memory card storage is great, but not cheap.

SHARYN

The Marantz CD recorder sounds interesting, and costs just under $700. It is only 2 channel, but has phantom powered XLR jacks. Even has a 4Pin DC power connection for gel pack batteries. http://www.zzounds.com/item--MARCDR300

True, but the Tascam has all that and more.
File Format: BWF Broadcast Wave File
Sample Rates: 44.1/48/88.2/96/176.4/192 kHz
Sample Clock refs: S/PDIF, Video (NTSC or PAL), LTC, WORD
Quantization: 16/24 bit
Pre-record buffer: Up to 10 seconds
Time code types: 23.976,24,25,29,29.97 DF/NDF, 30 DF/NDF

The mic level S/N on that CD recorder is 60db, so it would be in the same category as the 660 which I found lacking.

One thing that was awesome about the 660 was that everytime you stop and start it starts a new file. You plug it into a usb port and just drag and drop the folder, which contains all the individual files and even an Avid edit list. I'm assuming the Tascam will also do the individual file thing.

What, specifically, was the problem noise
with the 660? Hiss?

There are mods available that improve the Marantz 660 hiss problem.

Yep. It sounded like the air conditioner blower was on in the audio booth. I followed Lonnie's advice from his experience with the 670 and switched to stereo input mode in the menu, even though I was recording mono, and that did reduce the noise, but it wasn't enough.

The major difference (other than size) between the 660 and the 670 is that the 670 has an extra 5db in S/N over the 660. That 5db is quite a bit. I probably would have been happy with the 670, but since I had to go with a larger unit, I decided to go all the way and get the Tascam.

True, but I didn't want to buy a new recorder and then have to have a modification made that also voids the warranty. Better, in my opinion, to just return it and buy something else.

Yea, I agree. I was thinking about others who have had theirs for awhile. I am happy with my Marantz 670, but that Tascam looks sweet.

I just think it's not acceptable to pay that much
money for a digital recorder and end up with
it having a lot of hiss.

You should let us know what you find about
mic-in hiss with the Tascam.

I'll be checking out thoroughly. B&H should get my package tomorrow. I'd guess they won't send out the Tascam till probably Tuesday. I'm hoping to get it before the end of the week.

FWIW I've been doing research on what field recorder to buy for about a year. I'm thinking about buying a multi-track recorder for work with a band that I record. What I've found is that the models being offered change faster than I can keep up. The bottom line is you can get hard drive based, simultaneous multi-track recorder for not a lot of money that will burn CD's and transfer to a computer via USB or firewire.

At first the Roland / Boss line was probably the best because they were the only ones offering true simultaneous multi-track recording in a stand alone unit. But that has changed.

Now there are several models from different companies that will record multi-tracks. Tascam is a big player in this field. So are Korg and Foxtex with Edirol and Marantz offering more portable units.

At this point it all boils down to exactly what you're looking for in a recorder. There are models that have time code as a feature. There are models that are smaller and more suitable for stealth recording (a popular option BTW - recording concerts isn't exactly kosher so there is a big niche that wants a recorder than can be hidden easily).

The times they are a changing for sure when it comes to portable recorders and it's all for the best. The only thing I worry about is a Ipod type phenomenon where mp3 recorders become tres popular and companies start making trendy models instead of quality models.

Personally being on a tight budget I'm looking at anything that is a real bargain. That means Hi-MD IMO. They record at very high quality (uncompressed and digital transfers to a computer) especially if you get a quality pre-amp for your mic. Battery life is excellent and most models can run on AA batteries if needed. And since they are being phased out by newer technologies the price is dropping. That means great deals on equipment that records great quality. Yes they are limited to two channels and they have other limitations too but if you're looking for a great deal on great quality you probably won't do any better. I see Hi-MD recorders sell on eBay for around $100 all the time. That's just very hard to beat.

I've got a non-Hi minidisc recorder that isn't bad for
hiss on the mic in.

Jeff- unless you have a lot of cash to play with, pretty much all of the good multi tracks are AC powered only. Not very portable, and you had better have a very reliable power source.