4:4:4 12-bit Uncompressed DVX100

Juan P. Pertierra · July 14th, 2004, 08:48 PM

We are making an assumption, that the XL2 has 960x720 chips to begin with....but if it does, yes.

The info is coming...i am working on this pretty much full time, it's just been an incredible amount of work. There is a lot of stuff being worked on in parallel, website, software, hardware, circuit board layout, etc. All updates will be posted here.

Thanks for your patience... :)

PS:It now has an LCD + Menu buttons!

Luis Caffesse · July 14th, 2004, 08:56 PM

"PS:It now has an LCD + Menu buttons!"

PS: You now are a total badass!

Can't wait to see it in action.

-Luis

Eduardo Soto · July 14th, 2004, 10:11 PM

Question: If the footage is captured in raw format, but I want the end result to be 24p, would I then put the footage through Magic Bullet or equivalent? How would I go about this and retain the 24p look of the DVX with the raw footage?

Luis Caffesse · July 14th, 2004, 10:29 PM

Eduardo,

Juans Mod is taking the images straight off the chips.
The chips are shooting at 24 frames per second, so you are getting the RAW files at 24 frames per second.

There is no need to use magic bullet or anything else.

In fact, this is a cleaner way to get the footage.
There is no pulldown to remove or anything.

It is true 24 frame per second progressive capturing.

-Luis

Juan P. Pertierra · July 14th, 2004, 10:31 PM

Eduardo:

The DVX's CCDs can capture in progressive mode. The only reason why you have to know about pulldowns, etc. is because of the DV format. The DV format was designed to encode 60i, so in order to put the 24 progressive frames onto a DV tape they have to come up with some ingenious method, while still complying to the DV standard.

With my device, you do not have to worry about standards. If the DVX is in either 24P or 24PA, you get 24 complete frames a second. If the camera is in 30p, you get 30 complete frames a second.

What you get is similar to just scanning a film strip. If you record for a second, you endup with 24 uncompressed image files(TIFF,BMP,etc). You get true 24P, uncompressed, at 36-bit RGB 773x494 resolution with 10 F-stops of dynamic range.

Hope this helps!
Juan

Frank Roberts · July 15th, 2004, 12:12 AM

Juan, I'm probably more excited about the range than anything else. That is fantastic, 10 f-stops. It's too bad that a practical homemade DOF adapter hasn't been created for the DVX yet. I hope that will be next.
Best- Frank

Eduardo Soto · July 15th, 2004, 05:51 AM

Wow. That's music to my ears. Thanks for your quick response and all you do.

es

Milosz Krzyzaniak · July 15th, 2004, 10:12 AM

Hello.

I've not posted into this forum for quite a lot of time and just come by to see what is happening. Glad things go straight forward and glad also Juan that you gained a lot of knowledge on digital videography and that you do well.

I have just one suggestion. You go straight into commercial implementation of it and that is obviously ok. But if you intend to earn money on this project I think it should be vital to make all of the RAW benefits available. Of course, one part of it is proper hardware - and that is what you are doing now. But on the other hand in my opinion you should put stress on that part, that will miss (and very good that will) in your equipment - the bypassed colour correction done in the camera, as this stage is obviously just vital to obtain final good-looking footage.

None of us is a professional colourist, and concerning that the image-processing module in dvx does a very good job (at least in terms of DV), the most vital thing for now is the proper handling of the RAW 12 bit image and finding a good way to proper downsampling it to standard 8 bit. I think this is the right time to start thinking of it as a second crucial part of your project, if I may suggest, apart from the hardware. I'm afraid of the situation that the final user will have perfect RAW footage and from some reasons be unable to correctly process it, making all the work of bypassing DV not so reasonable.

I think you could just hire somebody to write a short manual how to handle this properly or just prepare some presets for most popular applications for handling the footage. Maybe you could take advantage of the DVX color management menu, and base some solututions on it?

And, finally, maybe this is right time to establish an official web site of the project?

regards and good luck

Juan P. Pertierra · July 15th, 2004, 11:42 AM

Milosz:

I think i should post some images after i learned that the WB setting affects the CCD output. I am getting images that look great, even without color correction.

Another point to consider, and i'd like everyone else's opinion on this, is that i was under the impression that anyone who is concerned about getting RAW uncompressed 36-bit 4:4:4 out of the DVX, already does their own color correction. Am i wrong? The whole point of getting RAW out of the camera is such that you have the most pristine data to start with the post process...? I could write software that puts a predetermined film-look on the footage and has some parameters the user can modify, but honestly i think that would be wasted time.

I don't know, is there anyone here who plans to just use RAW footage as is and doesn't already do his/her own color correction?

Juan

Eduardo Soto · July 15th, 2004, 04:22 PM

Well...maybe just a *couple* presets might be nice.... : )

but i'll take what i can get, no complaints...

Gordon Lake · July 15th, 2004, 04:37 PM

I think that those of us who dream of sending you a Canon XL2 and getting back a baby Viper are well aware of the hardware, software, talent and workflow considerations of the type of files your mod will be handing off to the hard drive. And we silently pray each night that you don’t go on vacation or otherwise become distracted from your task at hand.

However I do respect that some are looking for a 4:4:4 version of what their gear already pumps out. Here is where the tutorials and faq on your website comes into play and I know that you’re already working on that.

If you need any help on the site many of us would jump at the opportunity to contribute.

Gordon

Luis Caffesse · July 15th, 2004, 05:16 PM

I would second Gordon's post.
Most of us looking for this type of mod are well aware of what will be required in post.

I look forward to the RAW files.

however, if you still plan on implementing SDI out for 10 bit 4:2:2, that would be incredibly welcomed as well. It woudl be nice to have the option to out to a deck every now and again.

Overall, seeing as the white balance is still intact, I don't see what other camera functions I would want access to. THe less image manipulation the better.

I would also second Gordon's offer to help out. Count me in if there is any way I can help.

-Luis

PS.
Gordon, your mention of a "baby Viper" made me drool.
:)

Juan P. Pertierra · July 15th, 2004, 06:08 PM

Ok, that makes sense...

Actually i could use your help with this: import some frames of a static scene from your DVX in normal gamma mode and cinelook mode. Then, see what color correction and most importantly, gamma curve you have to apply to the normal footage to get it to resemble the cine look footage. This will allow me to program corrections that resemble the look that we expect from the DVX....

In any case, I think Milosz's idea of posting tutorials on the webpage is a great one.

Juan

Gordon Lake · July 15th, 2004, 07:36 PM

Juan,

John Beale did a DVX100 Gamma Comparison Chart between the Normal and Cine-Like gamma settings.

http://www.bealecorner.com/dvx100/color/

And Michael Bergeron at Panasonic Broadcast also did a document on this.

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:k7wpMUn6kLUJ:www.hpaonline.com/files/public/Begeron.doc+DVX100+Gamma+Curve&hl=en

Gordon

Mark Grgurev · July 15th, 2004, 08:01 PM

Juan, how many manual adjustments to the image(skin detail, chroma level, mast pedestal, etc.) can u still do with the DVX in camera?

July 14th, 2004, 10:11 PM	#903
Eduardo Soto New Boot Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 13	24p Question: If the footage is captured in raw format, but I want the end result to be 24p, would I then put the footage through Magic Bullet or equivalent? How would I go about this and retain the 24p look of the DVX with the raw footage?

July 15th, 2004, 10:12 AM	#908
Milosz Krzyzaniak Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 64	New thoughts Hello. I've not posted into this forum for quite a lot of time and just come by to see what is happening. Glad things go straight forward and glad also Juan that you gained a lot of knowledge on digital videography and that you do well. I have just one suggestion. You go straight into commercial implementation of it and that is obviously ok. But if you intend to earn money on this project I think it should be vital to make all of the RAW benefits available. Of course, one part of it is proper hardware - and that is what you are doing now. But on the other hand in my opinion you should put stress on that part, that will miss (and very good that will) in your equipment - the bypassed colour correction done in the camera, as this stage is obviously just vital to obtain final good-looking footage. None of us is a professional colourist, and concerning that the image-processing module in dvx does a very good job (at least in terms of DV), the most vital thing for now is the proper handling of the RAW 12 bit image and finding a good way to proper downsampling it to standard 8 bit. I think this is the right time to start thinking of it as a second crucial part of your project, if I may suggest, apart from the hardware. I'm afraid of the situation that the final user will have perfect RAW footage and from some reasons be unable to correctly process it, making all the work of bypassing DV not so reasonable. I think you could just hire somebody to write a short manual how to handle this properly or just prepare some presets for most popular applications for handling the footage. Maybe you could take advantage of the DVX color management menu, and base some solututions on it? And, finally, maybe this is right time to establish an official web site of the project? regards and good luck

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July 14th, 2004, 08:48 PM	#901
Juan P. Pertierra Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 479	We are making an assumption, that the XL2 has 960x720 chips to begin with....but if it does, yes. The info is coming...i am working on this pretty much full time, it's just been an incredible amount of work. There is a lot of stuff being worked on in parallel, website, software, hardware, circuit board layout, etc. All updates will be posted here. Thanks for your patience... :) PS:It now has an LCD + Menu buttons!

July 14th, 2004, 08:56 PM	#902
Luis Caffesse Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 704	"PS:It now has an LCD + Menu buttons!" PS: You now are a total badass! Can't wait to see it in action. -Luis

July 14th, 2004, 10:29 PM	#904
Luis Caffesse Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 704	Eduardo, Juans Mod is taking the images straight off the chips. The chips are shooting at 24 frames per second, so you are getting the RAW files at 24 frames per second. There is no need to use magic bullet or anything else. In fact, this is a cleaner way to get the footage. There is no pulldown to remove or anything. It is true 24 frame per second progressive capturing. -Luis

July 14th, 2004, 10:31 PM	#905
Juan P. Pertierra Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 479	Eduardo: The DVX's CCDs can capture in progressive mode. The only reason why you have to know about pulldowns, etc. is because of the DV format. The DV format was designed to encode 60i, so in order to put the 24 progressive frames onto a DV tape they have to come up with some ingenious method, while still complying to the DV standard. With my device, you do not have to worry about standards. If the DVX is in either 24P or 24PA, you get 24 complete frames a second. If the camera is in 30p, you get 30 complete frames a second. What you get is similar to just scanning a film strip. If you record for a second, you endup with 24 uncompressed image files(TIFF,BMP,etc). You get true 24P, uncompressed, at 36-bit RGB 773x494 resolution with 10 F-stops of dynamic range. Hope this helps! Juan

July 15th, 2004, 12:12 AM	#906
Frank Roberts New Boot Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: los angeles,ca Posts: 23	Juan, I'm probably more excited about the range than anything else. That is fantastic, 10 f-stops. It's too bad that a practical homemade DOF adapter hasn't been created for the DVX yet. I hope that will be next. Best- Frank

July 15th, 2004, 05:51 AM	#907
Eduardo Soto New Boot Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 13	Wow. That's music to my ears. Thanks for your quick response and all you do. es

July 15th, 2004, 11:42 AM	#909
Juan P. Pertierra Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 479	Milosz: I think i should post some images after i learned that the WB setting affects the CCD output. I am getting images that look great, even without color correction. Another point to consider, and i'd like everyone else's opinion on this, is that i was under the impression that anyone who is concerned about getting RAW uncompressed 36-bit 4:4:4 out of the DVX, already does their own color correction. Am i wrong? The whole point of getting RAW out of the camera is such that you have the most pristine data to start with the post process...? I could write software that puts a predetermined film-look on the footage and has some parameters the user can modify, but honestly i think that would be wasted time. I don't know, is there anyone here who plans to just use RAW footage as is and doesn't already do his/her own color correction? Juan

July 15th, 2004, 04:22 PM	#910
Eduardo Soto New Boot Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 13	Well...maybe just a couple presets might be nice.... : ) but i'll take what i can get, no complaints...

July 15th, 2004, 04:37 PM	#911
Gordon Lake New Boot Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 6	I think that those of us who dream of sending you a Canon XL2 and getting back a baby Viper are well aware of the hardware, software, talent and workflow considerations of the type of files your mod will be handing off to the hard drive. And we silently pray each night that you don’t go on vacation or otherwise become distracted from your task at hand. However I do respect that some are looking for a 4:4:4 version of what their gear already pumps out. Here is where the tutorials and faq on your website comes into play and I know that you’re already working on that. If you need any help on the site many of us would jump at the opportunity to contribute. Gordon

July 15th, 2004, 05:16 PM	#912
Luis Caffesse Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 704	I would second Gordon's post. Most of us looking for this type of mod are well aware of what will be required in post. I look forward to the RAW files. however, if you still plan on implementing SDI out for 10 bit 4:2:2, that would be incredibly welcomed as well. It woudl be nice to have the option to out to a deck every now and again. Overall, seeing as the white balance is still intact, I don't see what other camera functions I would want access to. THe less image manipulation the better. I would also second Gordon's offer to help out. Count me in if there is any way I can help. -Luis PS. Gordon, your mention of a "baby Viper" made me drool. :)

July 15th, 2004, 06:08 PM	#913
Juan P. Pertierra Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 479	Ok, that makes sense... Actually i could use your help with this: import some frames of a static scene from your DVX in normal gamma mode and cinelook mode. Then, see what color correction and most importantly, gamma curve you have to apply to the normal footage to get it to resemble the cine look footage. This will allow me to program corrections that resemble the look that we expect from the DVX.... In any case, I think Milosz's idea of posting tutorials on the webpage is a great one. Juan

July 15th, 2004, 07:36 PM	#914
Gordon Lake New Boot Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 6	Juan, John Beale did a DVX100 Gamma Comparison Chart between the Normal and Cine-Like gamma settings. http://www.bealecorner.com/dvx100/color/ And Michael Bergeron at Panasonic Broadcast also did a document on this. http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:k7wpMUn6kLUJ:www.hpaonline.com/files/public/Begeron.doc+DVX100+Gamma+Curve&hl=en Gordon

July 15th, 2004, 08:01 PM	#915
Mark Grgurev Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Fairview,nj Posts: 137	Juan, how many manual adjustments to the image(skin detail, chroma level, mast pedestal, etc.) can u still do with the DVX in camera?