Does the 24p "film look" require some post processing, or is it available right out of the camera? Could you plug the camera into a TV set and see the "look"? I guess what I am wondering is if the A/V output is 60i (NTSC baseband video compliant) with the frames arranged as 24p images.

Thanks.

You might be overthinking it a bit. The simple answer is just hook that baby up to a TV or Monitor and you'll get the 24p 'look' you mentioned. No post processing or doctoring required.

The subject of 'pulldown' and how it relates to editing and playback on an NTSC tv, however, goes pretty deep, so do a search on 'pulldown' for that and you'll get lots more info than you could ever want on it.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but doesn't it show it on TV using a 2:3 pull down so you’re watching 24p at 60i. However, I believe the characteristics of 24p would be there, much like it is when watching a DVD movie that was shot on film.

I think the real advantage to this camera is shooting in 24p and being able to edit in 24p using Vegas or FCP, then possibly going straight to film with it. Putting it back to tape and watching it on TV is the same pull down as they do with film. However, recording in 24p and editing in 24p and then outputting to a 24p QuickTime or avi would keep it at 24p if you were doing this for web purposes.

Once again, if I messed something up here, correct me.

The most important aspect of the 24p is in the capture of motion by the camera. How it is stored to the tape is far less critical. The storing and playback methods do little to mess with the originating film like 24fps capture, where the subtleties of the motion are getting taken in.

The NTSC frame rate will always be 29.97 frames per second, with each frame being composed of 2 different fields. So that's 59.94 interlaced fields per second--aka 60i.

The DVX100 always lays it's signal down to this NTSC standard (unless you have the PAL version). In 24p normal mode (F5) the DVX distributes 24p frames alternately to 2 and 3 60i fields (aka 2:3 or 2:3:2:3 pulldown). In 24p advanced mode (F6) the DVX distributes 24p frames alternately to 2 and 3 60i fields, and then to 3 and 2 60i fields (aka 2:3:3:2 pulldown).

If you just want the 24p look, but *don't* intend to edit or output 24p directly (like for a true 24p DVD), then the 2:3:2:3 cadence of 24p normal will look the best. If you intend to edit or output 24p, the 24p advanced mode allows you to cleanly remove the 2:3:3:2 pulldown. Why? Because the DV compression format compresses the two 60i fields of each NTSC 29.97 frame together. In 24p advanced you never have to recover a 24p frame from two different compressed NTSC 29.97 frames.

See: http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/#24pRecording

<<<-- Originally posted by Anthony Meluso : I think the real advantage to this camera is shooting in 24p and being able to edit in 24p using Vegas or FCP, then possibly going straight to film with it. Putting it back to tape and watching it on TV is the same pull down as they do with film. -->>>

That is true, however another big advantage of this camera is that it is the only one in this price range to actually capture 24 progressive frames per second. There is no way that you can take footage from any other camera and rival the clarity that this camera will give you with 24p. Not even the high priced Boris or even DV film maker can equal the progressive footage, because in order to make 60i footage progressive, you have to take a big resolution loss, making the footage very soft.

in the past when i didnt know where to start with anything, i would always go to the library and rent "For Dummies" books. i have taken out FCP4, PS7, and Dreamweaver Dummies books. I want to purchase a DVX100 (which will happen within the next 8 months) but have NO idea how to start editing IN FCP4. i have read several different paragraphs and even 5 page long explanation but i dont understand whats going on 3 sentences. in other words, i need something that baby steps me throuh the process, telling me what to do, where to click, just like the Dummies books do. unfortunatly there isnt a "24P for Dummies." Does anyone have a book/site that will walk you through, step by step, importing and editing in 24P advance in FCP, and ultimately exporting?? (can include cinema tools and anything else i need"

This notice thread (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8423) might provide you some pointers.

Jeff Donald's notice (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8430) also provides a link to an Apple Quicktime tutorial regarding the telecine process.

What has you confused? The capture process?

like i said, i read both of those, ive read them all, and the video tutorial is too small and brief for me to catch everything thats going on. im just confused on how to get it from the dvx to my mac and edit it in true 24p and export in true 24p

hi,

i'm looking for a good camera (low price/high quality ;) which is able to shoot 24p....which one is the best. the pan dv100?

thanx,
lukah

It's not only the best, it's the only one. But if you're in Europe, you'll have to shoot 25p, which isn't much different then 24p.

Hi.
When you capture in Vegas 5.0 footage which has been recorded in 24 advanced mode, In the capture windows in option menu - preference and again capture there is option to chouse analog device option - custom frame rate - is 24 film rate should be chosen?
Thanks.

Analog capture is only if you have a capture board in your PC that
supports analog in and MJPEG (some TV boards can do this as
well).

To the best of my knowledge any con-/prosumer boards only
support 29.97 fps (59.94 fields) for NTSC and 25 fps (50 fields)
for PAL.

If you are capturing with the pany 100 then you don't need to
worry about the analog setting since it will NOT be used.

Michael, I'm not sure what you're asking, but perhaps this may help:
http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.com/support/productinfo/24p.pdf

Thank you guys. You have answered my question. Vary helpful.

What frame rate should I use, 23.97, 24 or 29.97? I read that 29.97 is the best. Any tips guys? Im using Vegas 5.0

Depends on what you want to do with your footage. Since you shot 24PS, your footage will edit best in 29.97 (NTSC DV template) and will also edit fine in 23.97 timeline. Vegas will figure everything else out for you. IF you are going to be using your footage, with footage from another camera, then use the NTSC DV template. If you want to make a 24p dvd, then use the 23.97 template.

With Vegas, it's really simple: if you want to edit the pure 24P frames, choose the NTSC 24P template (and make sure that in the preferences, you have the "allow pulldown removal" option checked). If you're just editing for videotape, you can use the NTSC DV template (in which case, you would want the "allow pulldown removal" option NOT checked).

When transferring something shot in 24p from tape to hard drive, do you have to use a deck (i.e. the dvx100 camera itself) that uses 24p, or can I use any old DV deck?

I am probably going to buy one of these this week, I live near B&H, so that's probably where I'll get it. But if anyone knows any better, cheaper and just as reputable place to get it, please let me know. Has anyone bought one of the "package deals" from B&H and would you consider it worth it? Thanks again.

evs is a bit cheaper i think if you mention dvxuser or dvinfo and, yes, you can use any deck to transfer dvx footage in 24p, i use an old jvc mini dv camcorder.

I shot a feature on 24pa and editied on premiere with 29.97. film came out very successful and somebody wants to buy it and transfer to film and put bit on theatre. now do I need to do anything so that the transfer is smooth ...or is the transfer possible ? How expensive is it going to be and what would be the quality level?

Shot on dvx100 at 24pa
edited on Matrox digisuite mjpeg. on premiere at 29.97

we projected the film(1st premiere Aug 1st) in rental theatre on a 9x12 rear projection screen with a digital projector 2400 luman resolution. The quality was very good . The theatre had a seating capacity of 500 people and the film quality was very clear and visible from each corner.

How different and bigger would be the theatre screen ? If the quality was very good on a 9x12 screen from a DVD , Would it be almost good or very good on the theatre screen ? Is it really necessary to transfer to film ... I mean the cost and would it justify the cost ...or can it be projected from the dvd on a digital projector.?

Thanks in advance for the response

:)

Just wondering if anyone here has any experience using the DVX100A at night without ramping up the gain. I plan to use 24p advanced and I know this camera gets really light thirsty in that mode. I'm making it even harder on myself by refusing to allow grain in my night shots, so using gain isn't an option. I'm curious what the footage will look like in terms of general environment outside well lit areas. Will it pick up anything, or just the street and car lights? I can't experiment because I don't have my camera yet, but I need to plan my lighting needs in advance. Any input would be appreciated, especially if it comes from direct experience with the DVX100.

I have and depending on the particular nightscape in which you will be shooting, it won't be as bad as you think. Depending on the look you're going for, I think you'll actually be very pleased.

I shot in a environment, downtown Orlando, that is littered with those sodium lights that essentially make everything king of amber-yellowish. Here and there are bars or clubs that have the occasional neon sign, and a building or two that seem to have daylight balanced lights. In such an environment it can be tricky to get a white balance that is universal, but again, it depends on what type of look you're going for.

I decided to just use the default 3200k white balance, and was pleased with the results - and this is why... I turned down the color and the chroma level just a few notches. This does two things - it helps reduce the overall saturation of some of the really obnoxious amber streetlights, and at the same time, greatly reduces grain noise that can appear in low light around colored objects. And despite doing this, rather than distort or lessen the colors of human skin and such, it actually helped even out everything, despite the crazy mix of lighting temperatures.

I would recommend that as soon as you do get the camera, that you run out with it and test in your environment, using a variety of different settings in the camera. Because every nightscape is different, this is the only way that you will be able to know for sure. But don't worry, the camera is very workable in such environments.

That all sounds very encouraging. Were you filming strictly under available light or did you set up some studio lights? I was assuming I'd get a good image wherever I could concentrate artificial light, but wouldn't that cause everything surrounding the area to go pitch black? I've never been a big fan of the night scenes where you see a localized pool of light on the subject and pure blackness everywhere else, kind of claustrophobic and dull in my opinion. I actually prefer a well done day-for-night shot to that kind of "real" night.

In fact, my night shots will be supplementing a lot of day-for-night footage. I love inky blue night scenes, doesn't bother me if they may not look totally real. Besides it's a comedy/horror flick anyway. There are just a few scenes where a lack of artificial light sources - street lights, porch lights, etc. would expose the day-for-night trick and make it look really stupid - TOO stupid, even for a horror/comedy. I'd like to have a fairly natural level of detail showing outside my lighted areas, but I have zero experience with night shooting, let alone with a DVX100A. Is this a realistically obtainable goal with about 1000 watts of studio lights? That's the maximum I want to mess with outdoors.

I was shooting documentary style footage, with nothing but available light, in a downtown nightscape. In a scenario like that, while the footage was great for a doc piece, it may not be the right look for a narrative piece (depending on if you're going for an 'indie' look or a 'hollywood' look), and you will want to light faces and such somewhat with some well placed lighting. By 'indie' I don't mean poor quality - I just mean more natural while still maintaining good exposure and quality. It all depends on your environment and how much available light you will have.

As far as surrounding areas going black - well that will only happen if you're using auto-exposure, which of course you won't want to do in a film. I would post in the lighting section of this forum to get some tips and tricks on lighting narrative pieces outdoors at night - I'm sure you'll get some good info on that.

You're right about the day-for-night thing though - it can work when you're out away from city lights, but as soon as you're somewhere where there should be a street light or neon sign on, and it isn't, your day for night illusion is shot.

Overall, I wouldn't worry about the camera's capabilities at this stage - I would get to work collecting information about shooting DV at night, and try to absorb as much as you can about lighting techniques you can use.

Okay, sounds like the DVX100 can give me the look I want under the necessary conditions, which is what I was hoping to hear. My main concern is keeping grain out of my night footage and it looks like that isn't too lofty an ambition. Many thanks for the very helpful advice and input.

TRY TRY TRY TRY to get some lights set up. i always have the problem with the 100A in low-light in 24PA. i mean, it's fairly good under certain low-light situations, but it really depends. i don't know how dark you're talking, but i know that i have problems all the time. i always bring lights with me and hook them up to a power inverter on my car, because the streetlights don't usually get me the same effect. i, like you, try to avoid using gain whenever necessary. it can be tough. so yeah, the 100A can be pretty resilient in low-light, like everyone here says, but i urge you to be prepared anyhow. plus it still looks better to have some soft light being reflected at the subject at night anyway.

Hi, Daniel. How does the 100A do in evening conditions? I mean assuming it's not an overcast day and the streetlights are just coming on. I was driving around yesterday in one of my locations and it looked like some "evening-for-night" shots could work. Also, I've always planned on using my own lights with the camera in 24p advanced during night scenes. How little light can you get by with? I want to use anywhere from 250 to 1000 watts, but more than that would probably be prohibitive. Obviously I intend to block action so actors deliver their lines or perform important tasks only lighted areas.

Originally all of my "night" footage was to be day-for-night, but I quickly realized I'd have to compromise and shoot a few real night scenes where you'd need to see all the various lights of suburbia in them. I don't mind if there's some underexposure outside lit areas, but what I'm concerned about is not getting any detail at all. I'm filming pretty much in standard suburban night, no big neon signs or things like that. Imran seems to think the 100A will do fine in this regard, but I'd like to hear your opinion on it too.

Daniel, just to clarify my question about evening time - I meant filming at twilight WITHOUT any studio lights, as opposed to having them be a necessity in full night. How did does the 100A do in that situation?

here some low light shots i filmed from my DVX

http://www.rotundus.tv/panasonicshoot.mpg

random frame grabes

frame grabs

http://www.rotundus.tv/1.bmp

http://www.rotundus.tv/11.bmp

http://www.rotundus.tv/12.bmp

http://www.rotundus.tv/13.bmp

http://www.rotundus.tv/14.bmp

http://www.rotundus.tv/15.bmp

http://www.rotundus.tv/16.bmp

http://www.rotundus.tv/3.bmp

http://www.rotundus.tv/4.bmp

http://www.rotundus.tv/5.bmp

http://www.rotundus.tv/7.bmp

http://www.rotundus.tv/8.bmp

http://www.rotundus.tv/9.bmp

Very nicely done. May I ask what that was? Seemed very surreal.

was just a camera test.... my friend was doing a commerical for panasonic "olymipcs". I asked if i could film some "behind the scenes footage" nothing to speical just test footage!

It is nice footage. Cool white ninjas, too, heh heh. How much light was actually used on the set? It's a pretty low key style of lighting, but still looks like quite a lot of studio equipment was utilized, which is something I won't be able to do. Imran, how about some frame grabs from your footage?

Well both the things I shot that I was referring to were for other folks, not myself. However, while I don't have that footage, I can probably dish up the tape that I had of the random test footage I took using a few varying settings.

I'll post back as soon as I find it.

Imran,

Can you post the settings you used on your night shoot? Sounds like they might be a good starting point for some tests.

Sorry guys, I haven't had a chance to look for my test tape yet. As soon as I find it, I will post.

24P grabs:

http://www.ywenzstudios.com/caps/01.jpg
http://www.ywenzstudios.com/caps/02.jpg
http://www.ywenzstudios.com/caps/03.jpg
http://www.ywenzstudios.com/caps/04.jpg

shot on DVX100 so would = DVX100A with no gain.

Nice. Really impressive how the camera recorded the 4th frame. All of them look better than I thought they would after what I heard about the camera's iffy performance in 24p at night. Do you have any night shots like the first frame only with about 1/4 the number of lights? That'd be pretty close to the typical light levels where I'll be shooting.

Another thing I'm curious about. I assume you white balanced in all four examples? The various types of light don't seem that different from what a human eye would see. I was also surprised that the car headlights had a distinct blue cast when I was expecting a warmer look from them, unless, of course, they all had Xenon bulbs. Frames 1 and 3 seem to be the same location, but that big radioactive looking building (or whatever it is) is green in one frame and blue in the other! Was that a result of your settings or variable lights on the background object?

Thanks for posting the frame grabs, Yang. I already have a much better sense of how the camera will behave at night in 24p.

Those colored buildings look like those things from Ken Tanaka's Photos... The crazy cool video 'sculptures' in Chicago's Millennium Park.

http://www.pbase.com/tanakak/crown

I forgot what white balance i used on each shot. The lights definitely weren't that blue.

It would appear you're correct, Imran. The sign in one of Yang's pictures says Grant Park, which it turns out was expanded to accomodate Millenium Park. Now I know what that weird "building" really was. I can sleep better not having to ponder that anymore....


Anyone have some twilight 24p stuff? I'd sure like to see what the possibilities are of using the 100A to generate evening-for-night footage with available light only.

You did the right thing shooting 24pa if you want to record out to 35mm film. It's going to be very expensive to do so, in the tens of thousands of dollars. It can look very good if the film out is done well. Once it is filmed out it will stand up better being projected on large screens. You do need to re-edit in 24fps to have accurate cuts.

If you stay in the video realm you should bump up to Digibeta for projection. I wouldn't project from a DVD. You could even try uprezzing to HD but IMO, that is a hit-and-miss proposition. Some scenes just won't look good.

Transfer depends on the film chain quality you want. For a 90 minute video to film tranfer it can be as much as $50,000.00 as long as you stay with one of the smaller labs in New York, Atlanta, etc. that specialize in this type of service.

If I've read it right. the DVX100a records 24fps on to a tape at 60fps so you can edit it. If that is true do you thing it would work with FCX or FCX2. No funds yet for the pro.

Any editing program can edit the footage as 60i footage. It'll still look like 24P, but you'd be editing the 60i footage as recorded to tape.

If you want to edit on the raw 24P data, you'd need a program like FCP HD or Vegas, something that knows about the 24P sequence and can extract it from the 60i footage.

This was taken from the Panasonic DVX100a info:

24p Advance Mode - For 24p Non-Linear Editing
In 24p mode, images from the CCD can be 2:3 pulldown-converted(24p Mode) or 2:3:3:2 pulldown-converted (24p Advance Mode) and recorded onto tape in the standard 60i TV format. The tape can then be played back or edited using an ordinary DV system. True 24p editing can be achieved by uploading 2:3:3:2 pulldown-converted images via an IEEE1394

So if I recorded in 24p can I put download to my Mac and edit using Final Cut Express or FCX2?

Yes you could edit the footage, just like you could edit film footage that had been transferred to video.

What you couldn't do is a raw 24P edit, because FCX doesn't support 24P editing. But you could edit the footage as 60i just fine.

We recently shot some footage in 24p accidentally, though the final project is being shot in 30p. We're using Final Cut. Any idea on the best way to convert this footage over to 30p so we can edit in the same timeline?

Thanks,

AJ

You'd probably have to telecine the 24p into 60i and then deinterlace that into 30p (?).

I'm no expert on FCP, but you could probably edit it on the same timeline if you just captured the footage from tape as 29.97 and don't remove any pulldown.