NTSC is 29.97 FPS. It can not display anything 24P unless the 3:2 frames are present (making it 29.97). If you need to view 24 FPS then you'll need to use a computer monitor.

Very true - the DVX100, as well as DVD players, and the FIlmComposer, have been able to display 24fps media on NTSC monitors for a while. I believe one of the techniques has been to show fields instead of frames, sometimes hardware is used to 'translate' the 24fps media to stay compatible with the NTSC display rate. Again, I'm not sure how Avid will be doing this, or how FCP will either, for that matter.

This (http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/MWSF2003-24p.htm) should explain how it is done in FCP. Also see the discussion I refer to in my first post in this thread.

Todd's question was specifically about how 'native24p to display 'native 24p media will be displayed on an NTSC monitor'; I'm very familiar with how the software brings in and sorts out the corrrect pulldown ratio for editing purposes, but the question concerns how NTSC monitors, sometimes called Client monitors, are able to display 24p. I don't find that information on Mr Wilt's link you provided, nor on the Avid site; logic would dedicate that the NTSC monitor will probably NOT show the non-interlaced frame, since that wouldn't work, so some form of half-frame, or field, will be shown, and the pulldown algorithm will be re-inserted for display purposes, whether it's FCP or Avid, or other 24p editing solution.

FCP can play out to firewire from a 24P dv codec timeline right now.

From appearances. it's not inserting a standard pulldown cadence so much as it is just repeating one frame out of 4 to fill the gap.

It's not pretty, but it's not awful either and seems serviceable for the time being.

Here's why I asked about the 24P on NTSC monitor. I was at the DVFilm site (which is interesting BTW - a good deal about good transfers from the DVX), and it said that one should always shoot in the advanced mode, drop the extra frames, edit in 24P (or really 23.976), and then transfer either to film or bump back to 29.97 for video release. It apparently gives a better look either way, far better than 24P standard pulldown mode, due to the fact that you are never reconstructing a frame from two disparate, although adjacent frames. They say that they use a Radeon 7500 to display 24P on an NTSC monitor, and the Radeon does the conversion on the fly. I was just wondering if anyone had come up with a similar solution, or a better one perhaps....

Do the standard and advanced mode start with the same 24 frames, and then add the 2:3 or 3:2 pulldown, or are they 24 different frames altogether? Here's why I ask. If they are the same 24 frames couldn't you record in advanced mode, use DV Filmmaker to remove the redundant frames, and then perform a pulldown to get to 24P standard, allowing for regular video use, while still protecting for a possible film release. I know this would involve editing twice, once in 29.97, and once in 24P, but at least you could still go back to the 24P advanced version to do your cuts, if and when you transfer to film......If it's the other way around, 24 different frames, you can forget my question altother.....

Hi Todd,

Hopefully this answers what your after - I got a little lost in the middle there...

No, the pulldown will not affect the images captured and EITHER pulldown can be used for film output.

The 24p Standard footage can be edited with the pulldown intact to stay at 29.97 (although this will break the cadence) and still provide the look of film's 24fps frame rate. (Akin to editing telecined film with pulldown intact for broadcast.) This would work in applications where the cadence of the pulldown is not an issue. (Read: do not edit this way if planning on film or other 24fps output since it will be difficult to remove the pulldown after the edit.)

This 'Standard' pulldown can be removed to work at 24/23.976 fps. (For effects or if editing as a 24fps master.) Many software packages can handle this (ie - After Effects) although they will require a render pass to do so. (Unlike some hardware cards [ie - AJA Kona] that have built in uncompressed pulldown removal.)

Thus the point of having the 'Advanced' pulldown - rather than burying some of the progressive frames between mixed fields it creates 1 'dummy' frame every five frames to bring 24 (23.976) fps to 30 (29.97) fps. This allows systems which do not have uncompressed pulldown removal (most DV setups) to strip the pulldown without a render pass - the dummy frames are simply flagged as such and ignored. (See the DV Filmmaker utility at www.dvfilm.com.)

There might also be an additional benefit from the 'Advanced' pulldown in that none of the progressive frames are left solely in fields. As I understand it, the DV codec is frame based instead of field based and some loss occurs when pulling the original images out of the 'Standard' pulldown mixed fields even when uncompressed...

The one catch with the 'Advanced' pulldown is that it should be removed before editing even if you are only planning on a 29.97 master. Its cadence is non-standard and may look a bit odd if left intact. The idea would be to remove the pulldown, edit at 23.976fps and then reintroduce a 3:2 pulldown on the final edited piece. This is the process I would suggest if patience and time can afford it (a lot of the NLE packages are still a bit rough around the edges when it comes to handling 24fps editing.)

Otherwise the results are the same - you can still use whichever other camera settings you would like with either: thick/thin, gamma/matrix settings, color settings, etc. It really all revolves around how you perceive your post process.

FWIW, my current workflow is to: 1) shoot 24p Advanced ('thin', other settings to taste) using a clapboard, if narrative project; 2) capture footage at 29.97 (FCP); 3) bring stringers of selects out of FCP into DVFilmmaker; 4) convert to 23.976 in DVFilmmaker, *without* automatically adjusting audio sync; 5) reimport new clips into FCP; 6) manually sync audio to clapboard (primarily as confidence measure), relink clips with newly established sync; 7) edit footage/sequences at 23.976fps (if edit is very complicated*, then I proxy any titles, animations, composites, or filters for next step); 8) bring edit into After Effects if necessary (via Automatic Duck) for 'online' of animation, compositing, color correction, effects, etc; 9) add pulldown in After Effects on final render along with everything else.

Oh and I guess the audio prep, track building, and sound mix are in there as well somewhere... ;)

* FCP currently does not handle progressive imagery well when any movement is involved - animations, keyframed scaling/position, wipes, etc. These need to be done in AE for the time being to preserve resolution or progressive images. (This is a post all in itself...) If only doing cuts/fades and filters which do not move the image than one can probably stay in FCP (although an intermediate render pass will be necessary to add pulldown in AE.)

Although it is somewhat of a pain currently working at 23.976 fps, it is worth it to retain the progressive images and it also serves as the most versatile master frame rate - from there one can go to film, NTSC, PAL, web, etc.

Probably far more info than was asked for...

HTH,
Clayton

P.S. - Hey Todd, I just reread your post. Just in case in didn't come across in the babbling above - you do not need to 'edit twice', Just edit once at 23.976 and then add 3:2 pulldown to the finished piece for your NTSC master.

You posted the following comment:
"* FCP currently does not handle progressive imagery well when any movement is involved - animations, keyframed scaling/position, wipes, etc. These need to be done in AE for the time being to preserve resolution or progressive images. (This is a post all in itself...) If only doing cuts/fades and filters which do not move the image than one can probably stay in FCP (although an intermediate render pass will be necessary to add pulldown in AE.)"

Can you expand on this, please? I'm curious why FCP can't handle progressive imagery very well. Is it something the Apple is aware of and working on, or is it just the nature of the program? Or, is this something that is resolved with Apple's Cinema Tools? Does it lack the need support for progressive editing?

Curious,
Russell

Hi Russell,

It seems to come down to the way that FCP 3 works with fields or the lack there of.

When working with progressive footage you obviously don't want to introduce interlaced material when renders are created. If FCP's settings are left in their standard DV setup this will occur when a render has movement (ie - animation scale/position/rotation or a transition like a wipe.)

The solution would seem to be to set the sequence settings to 'None' for field order and/or turn off 'Field Rendering' within the render settings. Unfortunately, this does not work as expected and FCP essentially ignores every other line and cuts the vertical resolution in half.

The current 'fix' is to leave sequence field order settings to 'Lower' and keep 'Field Rendering' enabled. This will preserve the image quality but of course will get you back to having fields introduced if there is clip/transition animation. I don't believe it will become a problem if one is only cutting/dissolving and adding effects that do not animate the image.

The workaround for avoiding inappropriate renders is to cut in FCP as noted above and either bring just the animated / composited sections into After Effects or if the edit is very complicated, use FCP only for cutting and effects / placement proxy - ultimately bringing everything into After Effects for 'onlining'. (Either through importing reference sequences or with a utility like Automatic Duck.)

I don't know for certain if this will be addressed in the next update, but given that Apple is trying specifically to accommodate this camera and 24p editing, hopefully they have become aware that this bug is currently a large obstacle to that end.

Hope that helps,
Clayton


These links are to some of my posts at 2-pop with additional info/details:

http://www.2-pop.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=PanasonicAGDVX100Camera&Number=585149&Forum=PanasonicAGDVX100Camera&Words=clayton&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=1week&Main=584000&Search=true#Post585149

http://www.2-pop.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=PanasonicAGDVX100Camera&Number=548963&Forum=PanasonicAGDVX100Camera&Words=clayton&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=1&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=548961&Search=true#Post548963

<<<-- Originally posted by Clayton Farr : It seems to come down to the way that FCP 3 works with fields or the lack there of. -->>>


Seems like this problem would have been noticed by the thousands of people that have edited XL-1 frame mode material in FCP. Any of you all out there? Is it possible there is an *earlier* version of FCP that plays well with progressive-scan frames?

Yeah you would think...

Also, for that matter, what about the people who are using FCP with film originated material (via something like Cinema Tools) and finishing to a video master or for those working with HD progressive?

I'd love to hear of some combination of settings that work properly, if they're out there...

Clayton

(BTW - To accurately notice the fields being tossed out in FCP either view at 100% with 'square pixels' turned off OR export footage/frame and view in separate app. [with 'High Quality' turned on if viewing in QT Player.])

Hi I'd like to see various pieces of footage from the DVX100 in 24p cinema gamma mode.

Can anyone point me to where to see some?

Thanks

http://momentsinmotion.com/demo.htm
Download the demo "Christmas Magic"

can anyone provide some info on this process? the goal is an entirely deinterlaced progressive filmstrip for work in photoshop, from 24AP footage. i'm capturing with FCP 1.2, if that makes a difference. Thanks!

filmstrip format is uncompressed, be prepared for humongous filesizes

not a problem.. this will be for very brief clip rotoscoping. i just can't have any interlaced or blended frames to do motion study.

does FCP output filmstrip?, I know Premiere does

fcp has no filmstrip export option that i know of

I'm starting work on this surreal, dreamlike sequence. In it, I want to run the speed a little slower than normal. Here's what I'd like to do. I'd like to shoot with the DVX100 at 30p and then slow it down by playing it back at 24p. So, here are my questions:

1. When the camera is set for 30p, does it really shoot exactly 30 frames per second or 29.97 fps? The DV format requires 29.97 fps, and I assume it plays back exactly 29.97 progressive frames per second. Is that correct?

2. Using After Effects or Final Cut Pro, does anyone know how to take 30 (or 29.97) progressive frames per second and play them back at 24 fps to slow down the speed? Interpret footage? Time remap?

Thanks,
Russell

Video actually plays back at exactly 30 FPS. The fact that the average framerate is 29.97 accounts for embedded data in the stream that's not video data, that still has to stay in sync with the audio track...but that's just a technicality.

VirtualDub and AviSynth have great frame rate subroutines. They will also telecine and do a 3;2 pulldown on the video. A great deal of the method of approach depends on whether you've acquire interlaced(60i) or progressive(24p). Avisynth will take a 60i datastream and convert it to 60p by making each field a frame.Once done, slowing the framerate to 24 frames per sec is rather trivial. In Vegas 4, a velocity envelope will change the framerate to whatever you wish. Dunno about AE. After slowing, a video resampling helps to remove the jitters.

So you're in Euless? I'm down in Austin. Anyway, that is one way to do slow motion, shooting 30P but bringing it into a 24P project. Another, and probably the best way, would be by using Twixtor, a plug in for After Effects. Twixtor, by interpolating entirely new frames in between existing frame, like a 3D program (tweening), creates most possibly the smoothest slow motion you can get for DV. That way you can slow it down by any speed you want to, and it will still look smooth, especially on locked down shots. Looks just as if you had overcranked on a film camera, without the stuttering effect of doubled up frames that most video slow motion has. If you're shooting 24P, do remember to remove the dummy frames first so that it will process the slow motion right. Also a neat tool for that weird just in case situation where you shot something 30P and need to change it back to 60i. It's definitely worth the $400.

Hi - I make surfing movies that are sold on DVD and VHS. Going to film is not something that is an issue for us. I currently shoot with an XL1S. With that considered what do any of you think of the DVX100 for surfing footage. Will the 24p produce a cleaner image? Is there a zoom extender for the DVX100. 10 times optical is not enough..

I think the image is much cleaner than the XL1s and the progressive move produces nice images if you like the way film looks.

Per telephoto, Century Optics (www.centuryoptics.com) just started selling a 1.6X adapter, so that's as much as you can get.

waz12345,

Do remember though that this means fewer points of action, so sudden camera movements aren't going to look all that pretty. I would suggest watching some of the old surfing documentaries from the 60's and 70's for type of shots that will work best with 24 fps material....

The DVX100 with a 1.6X tele convertor is not near enough magnification for long range sports like surfing. The XL1, while perhaps not having the look of the DVX100 is capable of much greater magnification through the use of EF XL adapter. This allows you to put on the far superior Canon EOS EF 35mm lenses. You will still have optical image stabilization with several of the EOS lenses and magnification that will put you right in the action.

The DVX100 with a tele convertor will be a poor substitute. However, we all have budgets to live within. The ideal combination would be the EF adapter and the Canon 100-400 IS zoom. But your in the range of $2,000or so. For about $1,000 you can get the adapter and 70-300 IS zoom. There are links to footage with that combination if you search some of Steve Nunez posts. Also search surfing. That topic has been covered several times, but not in the context of the DVX100.

Info on outputing 24p or 24p advanced to SVCD. OK her I go. I have just shot my first 10 min. of 24p & 24p Advanced. I captured using an AG -DV2000 deck to Vegas 4 at 24 fps. I also captured ScLive, Premiere 6.5 and Avid ExpressDV 3.5 all at standard 29.97 ntsc. I did a side by side shoot with a Sony VX2000 in 29.97 ntsc. I could not believe the difference! The richness in color and the look of film was striking. I am so very happy that I didn't go with and XL1s for the interchangable lens. Though I still wish the zoom was a bit more powerful. But gladly give it up for the film look.

So how do I get the best SVCD out of a 24p or 24p advanced. footage. I use CCE SP 2.66 and Avisynth. In the past I would use this script on 29.97 720 x 480 source

LoadPlugin("decomb.dll")

DirectShowSource("AG-DVX100.avi")

BilinearResize(480,480)

Telecide(guide=1).Decimate(cycle=5)

ConvertToYUY2()

ResampleAudio(44100)

When I used Decimate() it would drop the frame rate to ntsc film rate 23.976 fps from 29.97 fps source. I would then do a pulldown to the m2v encoded file to bring the rate back up to 29.92 fps compliant SVCD frame rate.

But I am at 24p or 24p Advanced to start. Decimate(cycle=5) in the script made one hell of a difference in the outputted encode. So much that I would not think of not using it on a regular interlaced source. So here I am. Is this a truely non-interlaced capture that I get from Vegas Video 4? Can the decomb plugin, Telecide(guide=1).Decimate(cycle=5) help me with a better finished quality encode? What is the best way for me to use CCE SP 2.66 and Avisynth 2.50 for SVCD from 24 fps source?

Here is one for you experts that really know your stuff.


Thanks


Kevin

http://www.panasonic.com/PBDS/subcat/Products/cams_ccorders/f_ag-dvc80.html

...and it's cheaper, too.

I haven't found any place to buy it yet. I want to know it's street price and availability. I am shopping for a new cam now.

DVX without 24p is like the chocolate cake without the chocolate...

I know but a lot of people are not into the 24p for various reasons and buy a GL2 or VX2000 or PD150 and if this cam was priced right it would be every bit as good or better than those models. I bet a street price would be less than 2500.

Why don't you just do the pulldown and leave the Telecide out
of the script?

A quick search of the net found one place advertising it at full msrp of $3,295 and another (more recognizable) dealer stating they are taking advanced orders at $2,750. That's pretty close to the $2,500 you mentioned Alex.

Wonder if Panasonic fixed the slack in the focus ring on this new cam (DVC80). It sounds like it has some nice features but the GL2 is still a proven cam and with a nice lens.

At any rate, the DVC80 may be just the ticket for folks that want a bigger flip-out screen and the other features of the DVX100 (sans the 24p).

Nick

I read in the manual that regardless of the timecode setting 24p modes default to non-drop frame time-code. Is there a work around? I'm worried about innacurate project lengths due to the extra .02 frames a second...that will add up on long projects.
Anybody have any insite into this issue?

The non-drop frame time code will not reflect the actual run time. If you're concerned about program length, use a Time Code calculator and figure total run time manually.

This wont cause audio sync problems right? It's just when the audio sample rate is below 48kb/s....

The DVX100 has sync problems unrelated to the audio frequency recorded at or what an NLE captures it at. To the best of my knowledge the DVX100 audio has neither of the aforementioned recording or capture problems. However, the DVX100 does have a video delay (sync) problem. The video delay cause the audio to be 1 1/2 to 2 frames before the video. This needs to be fixed in your NLE.

Is that just in 24p mode or in 60i also?

Where can I read more about this- I was totaly unaware of this!

Do a search, I wrote about it on several occasions. Adam Wilt has it on his site (http://www.adamwilt.com/). The delay is a little less noticeable on the 60i if I remember correctly. The delay is very noticeable on an LCD display (most LCD displays have a frame or two delay also).

Will I encounter any problems capturing 24p footage in Premiere if I don't change the default off of drop-frame timecode. I know 24p modes default to non-drop frame timecode.....so what happens when "drop frame" is specified in your project you capture the footage under?

Not sure, hopefully it will run project at 29.97fps which is what the Panasonic is capturing.

However, you would get much better results with DV Filmmaker if you are planning on using Premiere, currently one of the worst solutions for 24p editing out right now.

The camera records at 29.97 no matter what mode it's in. It's the pulldown which distingquishes it between 24p (4:3) and 24pa (2:3:3:2). It's only when you capture into an NLE that has native support for 24p that it can adjust the frames via the pulldown method to edit in 23.97. Your right...Premiere IS pretty weak in comparison, and I'll be moving to Vegas 4.0 +DVD when I gather the cash.
However for now all I have to work with is Premiere, and I'm wondering how premiere will handle nondrop frame tc, in a drop-frame project. Will it just throw the project length accuracy off or will it effect it in a more severe way...ie audio creep?

Sorry, that was a typo. The problem you will have in premiere is judder frames. You will have to adjust cuts accordingly.

Per drop-frame, non drop frame, you pretty much need drop frame because unless you use DV Filmmaker to make a 24 or 23.97 fps file, Premiere needs to think the footage is regular 29.97 and you must watch for cuts of judder frames.

I don't see non-drop frame doing anything but screwing up timing and audio sync which you will need to adjust for anyway.

Have I mentioned that I consider DV Filmmaker a must have if you are going to edit in Premiere? That's the only way you run Premiere at 24fps (or 23.97 more precisely).

See the FAQ at http://www.dvfilm.com/maker/dvx100.htm for more details. A demo is there to try as well. For $95, you will save yourself much editing headaches.

Note you must shoot 24P advanced in the DVX100 for it to work.

What are judder frames? Are they the frames that are repeated to fit the 29.97fps standard? Do you mean I have to watch cuts on these frames because it'll make it more visible to the viewers if it's specifically cut on a repeated frame?

Regarding DV Filmaker- how does that work. Do I edit then output into filmaker- or run it through filmaker BEFORE editing?
Anyway I was planning on changing NLEs soon- Premiere's lack of 24p support and overall bugginess is annoying me. I was thinking about going to Vegas 4.0 +DVD, there are many enthusiastic members on here that swear by Vegas. With that suite I should be able to edit in native 24p and create real progressive scan dvds via DVD Architech right?

About the original question- I mainly was curious what settings to set, meanwhile, in Premiere while capturing 24p footage beings it records to tape with NON-drop frame time code by default.

Judder frames are when on field is from one original 24p frame and the other frame is from the next 24p - it's an artifact of pulldown. You can see it clearly on the screen.

DV Filmmaker - you process first to 23.97, edit at 23.97 in Quicktime project in Premiere and re-output using DV Filmmaker. They have a detailed FAQ of the process at www.dvfilm.com plus demo.

Per Vegas & DVD architect. Yeah baby - 24p is all yours through DVD. Sonic Foundry has a nice 24p whitepaper just for the DVX100 and how to run 24p on their web-site.

Are these "judder frames" only a problem during cuts- in other words to just avoid cutting on a jutter frame?

Thanks for the input, much appreciated.

Yep, only on cuts.

I realize that anyone who really knows the answers to my questions below probably is not a liberty to answer them, but I'll ask anyway....

Does anyone have any inside knowledge about if the new version of premiere (7.0 or Premiere Pro?) will have the ability to import the DVX100 true 24p properly and natively? Will it encode properly with the 2-3 pulldown for DVD mpeg? Will Adobe Encore be able to author 24p DVD mpeg steams?

I cuurently use REEL to author and I do not think that it allows 24p Mpeg. I know that Premiere 6.5 does not handle the DVX100 conversion properly without another piece of software. The only software that I have found that appears to work properly from start to finish with the DVX100 24p in this price range is the SonicFoundry Vegas+DVD. Are tehre any others?

My guess is you can count on some kind of 24p support the next Premiere release. How much and how well, nobody except someone under NDA can say.

As for low cost alternatives, Vegas 4+DVD is pretty much it, though you could pair Blade 2.0 with whatever package they recommend.

Unless they make some huge, and I mean HUGE changes to Premiere it's still worth going with Vegas. I've worked exclusivly with Premiere for the last 2 years and have recently in the midst of making the switch to Vegas. You wouldn't believe how much more powerfull of an application Vegas is compared to Premiere...even 24p support aside.
I'm am curious about Adobe Encore's capatability regarding 24p because I feel that'll be THE DVD authoring software to work with- especially with it's tight integration with Photoshop.
We'd have to assume that the upcomming version(s) of Premiere would have 24p support- heck seems like all it's competitors beat it to the punch. However even if the new Premiere DOES have support for 24p there's always the issue of stability. Premiere has long been known as a very buggy program...and thus the reason I'm making the switch to Vegas to begin with.