so i read this somewhere....
" Motion pictures released on DVD are encoded at this lower (24p) frame rate, so a 24p native

video DVD (DVD-R / DVD-RAM) should be compatible with the majority of DVD players."

is this true? or true for only progressive dvd players?
does the dvd player output 24p to 60i on the cheap none progressive dvd players??? that doesn't seem right...

so what are the rental dvd's at blockbuster exactly??

my footage is not ready to master to dvd yet but i tend to worry about it all the time, i am working in 24p advanced, editing and compositing

thanks for any help

I'm planning to shoot a short with a DVX100 in 24P standard mode and, after offlinining it in Avid Xpress, finish it in Discreet Smoke using an Avid Xpress EDL.

Can Smoke digitize from a DVX100? Or what would be the best way to get the footage into the Smoke?

If anybody has any knowledge regarding these points, please share.

Thanks.

It's all very confusing, even to long-time video folks.

You've got several different things muddled together here. All NTSC DVDs are 29.97 interlaced (also known as 480i) otherwise they would not play on standard players and TVs. Progressive players do the opposite process of the DVX100 and remove the pulldown on the fly for progressive TVs.

I would suggest you review the Sonic Foundry 24P Whitepaper (top of this forum) and look at this site:

http://www.dvddemystified.com/

to get a better understanding of how this works.

I am easily able to edit in 24p mode with Final Cut Pro 4 with footage from my DVX100. But what I'd like to do is also create a regular 3:2 pulldown copy to save back to DV tape and whatnot. So far the only way I know of to do this is to burn a 24p M2V file to DVD and play it back on my DVD player, letting it do the 3:2 pulldown and recording from the analog out of the player. This is not desirable since there would be mega generation loss from encoding to M2V and then recording from the analog out of the DVD player.

In FCP4, there is an option of how to play back the 24p footage from the timeline under the "System settings" menu. I have tried all of them. None of them create any of the needed "jitter frames". Instead they just repeat frames at regular intervals, resulting in choppy playback.

Does anyone know how to take 24p footage and create a 3:2 pulldown effect for regular NTSC?

Thanks

On the PC Vegas can do this. Ofcourse that's no use to you. If
you save back a DV do you have an option to save 30 fps DV?
In Vegas you can make this work when exporting, so perhaps
FCP has this as well?

Hello Ted,

You are in Glendale I see, how do you like it there? Have you been to any of the LAFCPUG meetings yet? If not, why not check out the next one? They are free.

Ted, please check out the following links and let me know what you think:
http://www.lafcpug.org/pana_cinetools.html
http://www.lafcpug.org/panasonic_24p.html

Please do write back and let us know what you think. I'm very interested in the outcome of your workflow.

Looking forward,

- don

I will be helping shooting a wedding outdoors in the afternoon with a dvx100. Its for a friend so low pressure, I told them before hand that it will probably look like crap because I've never done this before. My question is that outdoors under the sun would 24 or 30p be the best choice?

I would just shoot in interlaced and perhaps use a polarizer. Don't forget the tripod, and easy on the zooms, pans and tilts. Maybe use a softening filter for a nice close-up or 2.

yeah I got a tripod, and I know enough not to zoom to much, I'll look into the polarizer. Does shooting interlaced just make things simpler? I know that pans have to be slow and such and you lose some functions with 24p, but I'm getting used to it.

I have Vegas 4 so editing the footage shouldn't be an issue. I don't know I just really like the look of 24p. I'm just figuring out why wouldn't someone shoot in it. What can go wrong using 24p? I'm not talking about shooting mistakes, or bad camera work or anything, but the mode itself.

I don't necessarily have a problem shooting interlaced.

Well, it's like this: 24P will make it choppy looking, and I don't think your friend would like this. I would use 24P for special effect such as during a dance scene and perhaps during a couple other short scenes, like perhaps children playing during the reception or the bride and groom's car pulling in and pulling away from their ceremony. You are after all shooting a wedding for your friend, and he's counting on you. I suggest experimenting with 24P once the wedding job is done.

you've got a point. I'll probably use 24p intermittenly in non important parts. Do I have to do anything special in Vegas to use both 24p footage and 60i footage in the same video.

Frank, why will it make it "choppy looking?" To take my DVX for a spin before I start shooting my doc next month I shot over four hours of footage for "Vacation Bible School" at my church (cut together on FCP 4 and laid off to DVD via miniDV) in 24p advanced, as well as about four hours for a wedding a few weeks back. And while I haven't fully attacked the wedding footage yet (still waiting for music, stills, etc. from the happy couple) I've yet to see anything I'd describe as "choppy looking." I've seen over-exposed, under-exposed, screwed up color from forgetting white balancing (all from a lousy camera operator... me) but the footage I didn't screw up looks abolutely gorgeous. The richness of its colors, the warmth, etc. blew me away.

How/where/when does "choppiness" become an issue? They played my VBS layoff to DVD up on a big screen at church, and it was about as close to watching "film" as you can get. Just beautiful. What am I missing?

Marcia

<<<-- Do I have to do anything special in Vegas to use both 24p footage and 60i footage in the same video. -->>>

No, you can freely intermix them. Obviously they'll look quite different from each other, which is the point, but you will encounter no technical difficulties.

If you are shooting outdoors then now is a good opportunity to shoot in 24p. Low light is where you will have a problem because we are unable to adjust the gain in 24p mode and 60i is much better in low light anyway.

I just got finished doing a wedding and it was mostly done in 24p. Now I wish I had done everything in 24p because all the 60i shots look too "videoish" and change the feeling interly. You can view a clip here: http://markthomasvideo.com/clips/

I don't think there is any choppness at all. I think that is just the jitter you will see knocking down to a lower frame rate. Which is good because it looks more filmick. I love it! I will never go back to interlaced again.

Unless you have a highend tripod. Sometimes that will make it worse. Because all you see is sticky tripod pans and you are only limited to up and down or side to side. Most of the wedding tripod shots I have seen look really 80’s. If anything I would bring a Mono pod for stabilization. A tripod for me is big and bulky and you'll have to always put it down when you are not using it.

Anyway good luck. We are all new to this!

Mark, monopod is def the way to go through much of a wedding. I ran around with mine getting the bride getting ready (makeup, nervous giggles) the father waiting for her to come out, their walk together to get to the ceremony... then dumped it for the ceremony itself for my tripod that was set up, waiting. For whatever dumb reason I ran around the reception with the tripod, and while it was more comfortable for the dances, etc., don't know what I was thinking the rest of the time. Too bulky to easily capture the toasts, etc. from interesting angles. Think I was simply tiring as the evening wore on... and as you say, I'm new to this as well.
Marcia

P.S. Someone around here suggested shooting at a shutter speed of 1/24 for low light, which I did as evening set in... worked beautifully.

be aware that slow shutter speeds have the tendency to blur on fast moving action... this is why youll notice the gladiator "effect" (1/250) being used now on sports braodcasts...

moving on...

I use a manfrotto 501 head with the long neck (not the ball), which i detach from teh legs for mobile work.. works as a makeshift shoulderbrace (neck rests on my hip, lever rests on my shoulder) as well as a single arm steadycamish kinda routine thing by holding the base of the head with one arm and letting the cam "float"...

To answer that question, "Frank, why will it make it 'choppy looking?'...What am I missing?" Interlaced will look smoother. I don't know, I guess I'm from the old school for shooting weddings---plus you have more leeway, better control, better low light, as already mentioned. Speaking of weddings, I've got one coming up, and my wife got hired to set everything up, like the ceremony table etc. Good paying gig---.

Well I shot the wedding yesterday. Overall I'm pleased. Some of the footage looks great and some like crap but I have enough to put together a fairly decent wedding video. I used 24p quite a bit actually, It was an outdoor wedding so I used 24p for the ceremony with no problems generated from the mode itself. Nothing was jittery or choppy, and the amount of light wasn't a problem. I had a great position physically but the sun ended up ruining it to some degree. half of there faces...camera side none the less were kind of shadowy because the sun was in the wrong place for were I was. Oh well, thats the only place I really could have been up close.

I also had a tough time getting that camera to look right out under the sun, I was using the nd filters and honestly tried every setting/mode I could think of but under that harsh sun it just wasn't that great. It was towards the evening too so the sun was pretty low in the sky creating these harsh, long shadows. I bet it would have looked better in the afternoon.

After the ceremony, I shot some pre reception/hand shake line stuff that just looks so much better, its sort of in the shade but with enough light.

One frustrating thing though is the audio, they had a relatively low hanging arch for the ceremony. I was like hey this thing is low enough to put a mic in for decent sound recording of the service/vows etc...So I go through the trouble of taping my mic up in the there and hiding it with the flowers etc. I then have my girlfriend stand under at talk as I listen w/headphones...CLEAR AS DAY even at a whisper. Then when it comes time for the ceremony the priest stands about 6ft IN FRONT of the arch, with the groom/bride in front of him. I mean WHO IS RUNNING THIS HORSE AND PONY SHOW!! I kid of course, its no big deal. It was a last minute thing and I have zero experience. Basically an attempt to have all three elements of the production triangle instead of two. We were attempting to do a video fast, cheap, and good. Not happening but it will be good enough for them. I mean they have zero expectations....though they might have increased when I showed up with a dvx100. I'll have to leave out some of the footage that looks no better than an S-vHs cam, not to bad mouth the camera, it was my fault, combined with the conditions and my in experience with it.

As the night wore on, I had to shoot 60i because I needed the gain/low light performance. It still looks pretty good.

But yeah as I'm going over all the footage I can't help but be a bit disappointed in myself, I know what I would do differently but nothing I could have known at the time. I think its just that I'm really picky about picture quality. It comes from my other hobby...home theater entertainment. I need to set my standards a bit lower when I'm doing it myself.

Holy long post. I'm done now. I don't think I will be shooting weddings again, unless as a favor for friends what have you. Heh, I would be sweating right now with the footage I have if this was a paid upfront don't know the people sort of job.

oh and about editing this 24p stuff. Do I have to put the pulldown back in with Vegas. how would I do that with 60i footage mixed in?

Per outside, were you using cine-gamma? Try normal gamma in harsh sunlight as it's easy to blow out highlights with cine-gamma.

Per Vegas & 24p, see the Vegas whitepaper at the top of the forum for complete details.

Jake I totally hear you. Thanks for sharing.

Listen bud, In my first wedding I had really good footage then I had "give mom the camera" footage in there. I also disappointed my self. It looked like I wasn't holding the camera as still as I thought. Although I can hold camcorders so still you would think it was on a tripod. But the problem I had is the same one you had - I'm just too damn picky. I was always trying to get a good shot, then someone moves an arm infront of the lens or the person has this bad look on their face..lol. Crazy. So many things going on when the bride is getting ready. You have little time. Shoot shoot shoot. I found that you can NEVER have enough footage. I went through 6 MiniDV tapes and still wish I had more. I'm going to start adding the cost for the tapes on to the contract soon. lol.

Also what really pissed me off is that I thougt for shure I had the cam off, and after watching it back there is all these shots of my crotch and black shoes. So I waisted some more tape there but it's alright.

My problem is I'm trying to tape like if it was a film or something. But I have to loosen up a little bit now and think about what "they" want, not what you want. So you have to compermise your artistry in with "normal" looking shots. Sometimes it sucks but this is what I was born to do! I love this stuff!!

The first wedding always scars you off but hang in there you getting better and better after every one.

What do you normally do?

Jake just go ahead and mix it all in Vegas, it will come out just fine. There is no special switches and stuff. If you have 4.0 then you're all set. I just did a 60i/24p video in vegas and didn't have any problems. Looks great.

I was using cine gamma under that harsh sunlight unfortunetly but I was using the nd filters and the zebra bars were few and far between. I just think there were to many shadows...like the sun was too low in the sky, it would have been better with the sun directly overhead from where I was I think.

I didn't have much time to play with the camera settings before the wedding. I only had it for like two days. That is a big reason why some of the footage is worse than others. I was learning stuff as I shot. I did do my best to white balance etc...

I'm currently a college student who works at Dairy Queen. Filmmaking is my main interest right now, more specifically sound production and mixing though I enjoy most aspects of film making.

I borrowed the dvx100 from a film teacher at my college who I will be working as the "sound guy" on his short film at the end of this month for a local film festival. He left for the weekend and asked if I wanted to familarize myself with the dvx, so what better way then to shoot a wedding? I'm definently more familar with this camera now and I'm sure it well benefit us later this month.

Do any of you guys have the lcd hood? One thing that bugged me was that I was constantly trying to shade the thing from the sun etc...

Jose's post was originally made in our Film Look forum; it didn't draw any responses so I've moved it over here. If anybody knows the answer, please speak up! Thanks,

Is there any purpose to shooting in 24p if one is not going to transfer to film later on. I'm so confused as to how this camera achieves this 24p thing, I realize that you can remove the extra frames to get it down to 24p but if your going to DVD/VHS which is 30fps does this 24p thing make any difference? Would my life be a lot easier and see no difference if I just shot in 30p?

oh and with 24p footage not destined for film does one not remove the pulldown or do anything else like that differently. Just you know keep it all 30fps?

I did a bit of intensive research on some other sites I just stumbled across.

What I am seeing is basically to shoot in 24pa, edit in 24p, then apply the 2-3 pulldown if its going out to NTSC 30fps playback...

keep the project in 24p when authoring a 24p dvd or transfering to film.

I'm assuming that shooting in 24pa is the way to go because it covers all formats basically. I mean if you don't want a 24p dvd, or a film transfer than shoot 24p. But you can apply a 2-3 pulldown to 24pa footage making it as if it was shot in 24p regular and edited in 29.97fps timeline etc.

Is this my answer?

Pretty much yes. Some people who are know they are going straight out to 29.97 NTSC only and want to edit using software that does not support DVX100 24p modes will shoot in 24p standard mode so they don't have to reapply pulldown.

30P looks pretty much like 24P, and avoids all pulldown issues. But, if you ever want to transfer to PAL (or to film) you're hosed.

Also, if doing a full 24P native project, you can encode your DVD's at 24P, and save 20% on your file sizes (which will allow you to either fit 20% more on the disc, or use higher-quality compression).

If going for VHS release, you can use 24P Normal and not worry about fields or pulldown or anything, just shoot and edit just like it was 60i video.

Barry if i shot in 24p normal. ? can i still get it on to DVD.

Of course! 24P Normal can be edited as a pure 24P project just like any other. And yes, you could make a pure progressive-scan DVD from 24P Normal footage.

24P Advanced offers a small increase in quality when editing in a pure 24P timeline on an editor that understands 24P Advanced (i.e., Blade 2, Vegas 4.0, or FCP 4). If you're not using one of those editors, or not editing in a 24P timeline, then 24P Advanced won't offer you anything more than 24P Normal does.

Barry thank you very much for input....
Man you guys are fast..........

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : Of course! 24P Normal can be edited as a pure 24P project just like any other. And yes, you could make a pure progressive-scan DVD from 24P Normal footage.
-->>>

Hi,
I think only 24p ADVANCED can give you a pure progressive-scan DVD since every frame is used, unlike the 24p STANDARD/NORMAL.

Either mode can be converted back to the original 24 progressive frames, which is what you need to make a 24-frame progressive DVD.

Both modes spread four progressive frames across 10 video fields. The only difference is in what order that spreading occurs. In 24P Normal, it is evenly spaced, at a 3:2 rate, which makes three whole frames and two split frames per five-frame sequence. In 24P Advanced, there is only one split frame per five-frame sequence.

So, to convert 24P Advanced back to the original 24 progressive frames, you simply drop one frame out of every five-frame group. To convert 24P Normal back to the original frames, you have to uncompress the video, un-split the frames, and then record out the original 24. A little more work but no less effective. There is, however, a tiny quality drop when doing it this way, since 24P Normal has to be uncompressed/recompressed, whereas with 24P Advanced you can copy the four compressed frames over in their native state.

Okay,
Thanks Barry!

OK, this is probably a silly question, but I haven't seen it addressed anywhere.

I know that when shooting PAL cameras in a 60 cycle environment that you have to worry about flickering/strobing, especially with flos.

Does this not apply to shooting 24p?

Is this because you are shooting 24p, and not 48i?

Joe Kras
St. Louis, MO

If you are having issues with flourescents, simply adjust the shutter speed to 1/60.

The DVX100 defaults to a 1/50 shutter speed when in both 24P and 30P with the shutter setting in the OFF position. Simply switching the shutter ON and setting it to 1/60 should eliminate any problems with 60 cycle Flo's without killing the natural motion blur.

Thanks a lot!

Joe Kras

Am considering purchasing the DVX100. Have been reading the messages here, and found them to be of great help.

What does the term, "2-3 pulldown" refer to?

Perhaps asking that question is akin to asking how much a Ferrari costs (if you have to ask you're not ready to buy one).

Thanks.

2,3 pulldown is in reference to how the progressively shot still frames are recorded to the interlaced video.

In other words, you are shooting 24 still frames per second. But the format you are recording to is recording 60 fields per second. So you need to fill up those 60 fields. In order to fill up those 60 fields with only 24 frames, the frames are "pulled down" into a redundant recording sequence.

Here's how it works:

The first frame 'A' is recorded 2 times corresponding to field 1 and field 2. The second frame 'B' is recorded 3 times corresponding to the next field 1 and field 2 and field 1. The third frame 'C' is recorded 2 times corresponding to field 2 and field 1. The forth frame 'D' is recorded 3 times corresponding to field 2 and field 1 and field 2. 2,3,2,3,2,3, etc, etc.

The only problem with this, is that the 'C' frame gets split between opposing fields. 2 and 1. Since fields 2 and 1 oppose each other, you don't have a complete frame of 'C'. This isn't an issue for standard NTSC editing or viewing. The motion looks the same as any other 24 frame acquired image pulled down for NTSC video screening. However, if you want to edit on a 24 frame timeline or transfer the 24 frame footage to another 24 frame medium, you need to recompress that 'C' frame to get it back. What Panasonic did to deal with this is offer a second 24P mode. The 24P Advanced mode uses a modified pulldown for recording. By doing a 2,3,3,2 cadence, the 'C' frame gets recorded an extra time so that it isn't split between opposing fields. 2,3,3,2 2,3,3,2, etc, etc. This solves the issue of the split 'C' frame but introduces a new and unique motion signature that is different than the normal 2,3,2,3 motion signature.

In order to work with the 2,3,3,2 Advanced pulldown cadence, you'll need a software solution that can remove the advanced pulldown and extract the 24 frames for editing on a 24 frame timeline. Once you finish cutting your masterpiece on a 24 frame timeline, you then can export the 24 frame sequence back to regular NTSC 2,3,2,3 pulldown 60i video, a 24 frame DVD, or an image sequence for HD upconversion or transfer to film.

But regardless of how it works, or which cadence you choose to work with, both get the job done.

To supplement Jon's excellent description you may find Adam Wilt's site (http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/index.html) of benefit to keep your head from spinning. It features an illustrated explanation of the DVX100's various pull-down methods as well as a broader review of the camera's features and characteristics.

Jon: Thank you so much for that detailed explanation. It will take me a bit to absorb the information, but I'm sure sooner or later it will click.

Ken: Thank you for the link. That, coupled with Jon's explanation makes things more clear.

Sorry if im going over old territory but.....
I think I read that you can achieve [better quality] in scene file 6
[thin filmlike 24pa]especially when exporting to dvd.
I shot some sports footage recently in scene file 5, football infact,[thats soccer to those of you on the other side of the pond],Ilaid it out in a premiere 24fps timeline and used my canopus encoder to create an mpeg 2 file and exported that to dvd ....great.
So whats going to happen now if I chase this [better quality]dvd
in scene file 6.Will I need a programe like dv filmaker to pulldown my footage in PAL.[25fps to 24pa]
Just need to know a bit more on pulldown with regards pal as a lot of these posts are concerned with ntsc.
Many thanks in advance.

There is no pulldown for 25p->24p. Why would you want to?
The only reason to have your footage running at 24p is if you
are going to do an NTSC version. Just let the package interpret
the footage as 24p instead of 25p (DO NOT resample the fps).
You will need to stretch the audio though.

You can't see the difference between 24 or 25 fps. So if you
stay in PAL land, just stick to 25p!

Thanks Rob
I was begining to wonder after 200 people had viewed my post but none until you, had responded,So to recap I can film in scene file 6 and lay that footage out in premiere.25fps timeline.
Apart from tweaking the audio that should be it.
i'll create a dvd from some more sports footage and let you know
the results.Once again many thanks for your help.

What is "Scene file 6"? I've never ever heard of that before.

Why would you need to tweak the audio if you stay at 25 fps?

Lets recap:

1. you want a 25p EUROPEAN DVD at PAL resolution: just make a 25 fps PAL project and change nothing

2. you want a 24p AMERICAN DVD at NTSC resolution: start a 24 fps NTSC project and load your 25 fps PAL footage. Change the interpretation framerate from 25 to 24 fps and stretch the audio.

Keep in mind that if you want to make a 24p NTSC DVD you
must create the correct DVD flags which Premiere can't do to
my knowledge (not sure).

But if you just want a 25p PAL DVD stick with method 1 and you
don't need to do anything. Make sure that when you render
your MPEG2 file and author your DVD you indicate that the
stream is progressive (interlacing is none or progressive).

Sorry Rob If I wasnt Precise with my description.
F6 scene cine
Is position 6 on my dvx100 which is described as follows
on page 33 of the operating instructions from panasonic.
File containing the settings suited to cine-like shooting using the progressive25p mode
{the v detail freq item onthe scene file setting menu screen is set to THIN]
thanks for your replys
Ithink I will Be ok
any other tips on 25p pal then please let me know, I will post you results of dvd soon.
regards dave

the v detail freq item onthe scene file setting menu screen is set to THIN
In THIN mode, there is some alliasing on a TV screen, but on a computer screen, there is more vertical resolution.

THICK mode: no alliasing on TV screen, but less resolution on computer screen.

Hey guys--While shooting my documentary on a couple interviews I accidentally forgot to put the cam in 24P Advanced mode (we're editing on Xpress Pro in 23.98 timeline) and shot in 24P Standard instead. The problem now of course is that we need to get this 24P standard footage into our 23.98 timeline. Can anyone recommed the best way to do this that will match the 24Advanced footage?

Also, in a couple scenarios we shot with a 2nd, 60i cam. We would also like to import this ftg into the project. Is importing into AE and then exporting at 23.98 the best solution? Thanks!

Peter

What settings do you guy use to make 24p look great outdoors?