I don't think that end of rebate has anything to do with a new model introduction date. Rebates can run past that date or stop before. There may be additional rebates abd discounts later if the old model does not sells.

The old lenses will fit and it's probably HDV. Unless there is a new lens line, I don't think that the HDV performance will be anything spectacular. HDV is HDV. But the DV performance may be.

I'm cynical but I would be suprised if it was anything more than basically a DVX100a that could change lenses.

Aaron

Hey Ed,

I just noticed your post. Actually I have a friend who has seen a prototype of the more expensive Canon HD camera. Real nice. It does have 1/2" potatoes chips. A Sony killer. The lens stabilizer vibrates. The landlady next door loves that function. Says that her back hurts.

Mike

Aaron,

You forgot to mention that it has 8 channel sound. It records it on 8 track cartriges.

Mike

"I don't think that end of rebate has anything to do with a new model introduction date. Rebates can run past that date or stop before. There may be additional rebates abd discounts later if the old model does not sells."


Historically Canon's rebates have ALWAYS been tied to a new model introduciton date.

They definitley will not announce the new camera before the rebate ends, and they won' t wait long after it ends.

The new camera is replacing the slot the XL1s holds currently in Canons product line. It's not an addition. Looking at the way Canon has handled releases in the past, I think the rebate is a very clear indicator of what is ahead.

-luis

You're probably right. Canon is supposedly low on supplies and is limiting dealer quantities. Companies are normally very happy to supply any quantity to any dealer. Some big dealers are clearing the XL1s out. I guess the logic says that the new camera will be announced in July. I guess the rumor is true. There is another rumor at the Camcorderinfo forum that the camera will have excellent 16x9 24p performance and mediocre HDV. That makes sense too.

Just so you don't think you missed it... I did go around the Canon booth at InfoComm and did not see anything that would look like the new cameras.

Another sign that a replacement camcorder might be imminent is if the head man at the forum sells his old one???

[grin}

I was at my local video store here in Tulsa and noticed the XL1s was gone I happened to ask if the guy if he had heard anything from their Canon sales rep on a new version of the XL1s. I expected him to say that he hadn't but he actually said they are supposed to announce a new model in the next 60 days, when I asked for any details he said the rep didn't give any details other than that he gave the dealer a big smile.

I was thinking of posting on this when he told me last week but I am not big on rumors but the guy who I talked too I know well and he isn't the type who just says stuff like that. I can't wait to see if he is right and hopefully it will take back the market from the Pany and give us Canon users bragging writes again.

It's interesting that Canon's 3 top cameras have large rebates: XL1S, GL2, and the relatively new Optura Xi.

To top it off, the Optura Xi's tech is starting to move down the line to the other consumer offerings.

See you at DV Expo East in July!

George Ellis:

<< I did go around the Canon booth at InfoComm and did not see anything that would look like the new cameras. >>

You should have said hello! Don Berube and I were there behind the counter, it would have been great to meet you!

Actually there was a new DV camcorder in the booth, the Optura 500.

Chris, will you be at DV Expo East?
I won't be able to be there myself unfortunately, but I've got a few friends in NY (who I know are lurkers on the board here) who will be there.

Also...just out of curiosity and obviously not connected to anything mentioned in this thread....

does Canon usually announce a new camera before showing it off at a trade show, or do they just show up at shows and unveil it unannounced?


And lastly, what news can you give us on the rumored addition of that digital wipe effect?
:)

-Luis

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : George Ellis:

<< I did go around the Canon booth at InfoComm and did not see anything that would look like the new cameras. >>

You should have said hello! Don Berube and I were there behind the counter, it would have been great to meet you!

Actually there was a new DV camcorder in the booth, the Optura 500. -->>>

Durn. Sorry I missed you.

I think all the speculation about the next camera having HDV might be too optimistic/early. SD is still the standard and what most people want and need, plus that would leave a void in the marketing tier of cameras that canon offers which would be filled by the current panasonic and sony products. Probably what we will see is a replacement to the XL1 in a SD format that will compete with(blow away?) the competition It's too early in the game for canon to release a HD version, most software doesn't support true HDV editing yet, the standards have just been finalized, only the highest end customers know about HDV etc. Sony's projected release of their HDV camera isn't until the first of 2005. Canon will jump into HDV once the interchangeable HD lenses are cost effective,the HDV standards are more mature, more softwave supports HDV, more mass consumer demand to justify the development. and once some of the feature sets of the competition are more finalized. just my take on it all

I completely agree with you Michael. Canon will most likely create a new line of product for their HDV cams somewhere in 2005.

You brought up a good point, Michael. The new Xl camcorder can't have HDV, because HDV is too new for Canon to have possibly incorperated it. Well, actually, maybe they could have, especially if its true that they didn't start designing it untill last year.

What if/why couldn't it has/have both SD and HD? You know, it would/could have like 24p capable SD, regular SD, 720p HD, and 1080i HD. I think that would be neat. But hey, even a 24p camera from Canon would definitely be reason enough to get it. Interchangeable lenses and 24p? What couldn't it do! =D

If it has HD, even though the HD lenses are quite expensive nowadays, perhaps Canon would let lense options for this be for the higher end users and would have an industry lead in 3CCD HD, I mean, that's kind of what happened to the XL1S after awhile cough*P+S 35mm adapter*cough. Plus, it probably should last a loooooooooong time like the XL1S has, so Canon surely wouldn't be leaving itself out of the HD arena for the next 3-5 years, even if they had the best prosumer SD camera on the market and if HD wasn't truly supported by current NLEs. Overall, it's pretty confusing and pointless to speculate at this point so let's just try not to stir up any more heated debates or rumors, guys. (and especially myself ^_^)

But so far, we're all agreed on these things:
1. True 16x9
2. XL1S lense compatibility
3. High end SD or High end SD/HD performance
4. 24p SD (prolly not 24p HD)
5. Same body type
6. A new camera is definitely coming out to replace the XL1S!

Things we're not so sure about:
1. Color scheme (red and white or blue and white? All black?)
2. Better audio solution (something removable? Other?)
3. 24p HD
4. HD in general
5. B&W viewfinder
6. An LCD display
7. Digital wipes (some are wondering ^_^;;;)
8. Video output options (depends on whether HD or not)

Is that about it? Have I missed anything?

Actually Jack, I think the only thing we can all agree on is that a
new camera is coming out to replace the XL1s. At least, that is
the only thing that I am completely sure of.

Everything else still waits to be seen, and luckily we only have a
few weeks left before finding out everything there is to know.
The current rebate now expires in 2 1/2 weeks.

You do bring up a good point when it comes to HDV, because
that's the one feature I keep going back and forth on.

On the one hand, it does seem rather quick for Canon to come
out with an HDV camera. The spec was only agreed upon last
year.

On the other hand, Canon has a history of keeping their new
camera models around for 3-4 years, which makes me think they
would want HDV on the new XL camera. And, it seems Sony and
JVC have had enough time to put HDV models together (at least
prototypes), so I don't think it's unfeasible for Canon to have
designed an HDV camera in the same amount of time.

-Luis

I, for one (the only one?) don't know "for sure" what Canon is going to do, maybe because I've not signed a confidentiality agreement. So, with that in mind, I really can't "agree" with anyone about what the future might bring regarding Canon's camcorders. I suppose I can agree that sooner or later a new model will eventually be released... [g]

Speculation is heavily in favor of a "new model XL2" being released to replace the XL1/XL1S --- but, lacking any official announcements from Canon --- it is for now, merely speculation.

We've been so anxious to see a "new" XL1S, going so far as to make up long, long lists of suggested improvements, that many now believe that an earth-shaking upgrade is in the works...

But, what if the XL2(?) is "just" a minor upgrade to the XL1S --- maybe called the XL1S+ --- comparable to the improvements added between the original XL1 and the XL1S? Instead of HD maybe it will "only" do true 16x9 and/or "only" 24p and/or "only" add built-in balanced audio inputs, etc...

But, what I really don't understand (maybe someone will explain) is why anyone cares what its color scheme might be (red, white & blue stripes?), or if it will handle digital wipes...

Ed,

I can't speak for the color scheme...I could care less about that.

As far as the 'digital wipes' go, that was a joke in reference to the upgrades canon made from the L1 to the L2 Hi-8 cameras.
If you go back and read that part of the thread, hopefully it will become obvious that I was joking.

I don't want to become known as the guy that brought back the digital wipe.
:)

-Luis

Luis,

Ahhhhh, I see??? Actually I don't know anything about Canon's L1/L2 Hi-8 camcorders so the mistaken humor is all mine!

I promise I won't petition Canon for digital wipes on future models...

I was thinking that perhaps a nice mauve with cyan and yellow trim might work for a color scheme? You know, really help it stand-out and be noticed?

[grin]

== Ed ==

Wait wait wait, let's not be so quick todiss the whole digital wipe thing, Luis you woulfd be my hero if you brought back the digital wipe, oh and mosaic, man i miss mosaic.

I was told by my local retailer (not a mom and pop store) that the hdxl1s+2 would have a flip out lcd screen and 16x9 chips. I speculated that it would be dumb for a new camera to come out and not have some sort of HD capabilities but when I posted that on the xl2 wish list, Mr. Hurd quickly respooonded that there was still quite a market for a good SD camera.

That being said he could have just been tossing out somethign so as not to get the site in any NDA troubles.

I do agree that it doesn't matter a bit to me what color it is, because there's always paint lying aroundif you're not happy with the color.

I wonder if maybe the video monitoring options might be really limited if it is HD if only because I think they would do analog component before they would do HD-SDI and it just doesn't seem like there would be enough room on the camera (that size) for xlr inputs, a flip out lcd, component outputs, composite outputs, the canon logo, a place to put the tape, menu knobs...

I don't know I just wish the camera would hurry up and come out so I can stop getting my hopes up.

Thing is. If they bring out the new XL1s with the things most people have suggested in this thread, they're just basically doing a DVX100 (With HDV, ok it'd be different but I'm not convinced at all about HDV).

If they do just catchup to the others (DVX100 I'm specifically thinking about here) they're not really gonna steal market away and then I'm sure Panasonic will bring something out within a year WHAM, take the lead again. You don't want to play the catchup game, you will lose.

Hopefully they've talked to the people who use their cameras, and know what market they are after. News Types? Mum and Dad shooting the kids? Indy filmmaking? Porn makers?

They need something revolutionary (Like the DVX) if they want to really get into the game and control their sector of the market. Is it just me or is anyone else cynical about what Canon can really do in this area?


Aaron

I'm more curious than cynical.

The comments I've gotten from the people who seem to konw what they're talking about are things like:

"It's fuXXing phenomenal"
and
"this is very exciting"

People seem to be using words like 'revolutionary' and 'groundbreaking'


Now, i'm not saying I believe all of that.
But, my point is, whatever Canon has up their sleeve, I think THEY believe that it will secure them a big part of the market. And you're right, you can't secure market by playing 'catch up.'

Now the question is whether or not we will agree with Canon that the new camera is indeed revolutionary.

Only 2 1/2 weeks left.

-Luis

Many of those who have made wishful speculations about the "XL2" have mentioned 24p. Don't forget that the DVX100 also has 30p in NTSC models, along with 30i. For those who like the look of progressively-shot video, the 30p is much more useful, as it's smoother and has less of the jerkiness of 24p.

You could use 30p as an alternative for regular video footage and also have a source for very good video-captures for still pictures. As it is with my VX2100, I have to choose: shoot footage at a very jerky 15p for still pictures or in 30i for motion video. Having a true, full-resolution 30p, would be the biggest selling point for me of all the features of this new model that is hovering in the vapors. Even though it would be a Canon, this function, along with a choice of removeable lenses with powerful zoom capabilities, might move me to impoverish myself further to acquire one.

As for HDV, I'm not presently interested, until it is improved to a much higher level, in my range of affordability. In a few years, if HDV reaches a point where it's very good, has a full set of supporting systems and equipment for editing and making distribution copies, then I'll be inclined to embrace it. And a whole bunch of other people will have bought into it previously, if it's to be a practical format for me. I've already made my share of costly mistakes by being an "early-adopter". It's someone else's turn.

10 days left!!

This thread had been dead for so long, I figured no one had
anything to add. When I saw a new post, I thought, 'oh cool,
someone else with a new rumor on the features or release date.'

Instead I got the Casey Cassem Canon countdown.
:)

Why do I imagine Mark sitting at home looking at a calendar on
the wall that has each consecutive day crossed out with a
sharpie, with July 1st circled in bright red?

Oh wait, sorry, that's me that does that.



So, how about it? With 10 days left anyone heard any other news?


-Luis

10 days come and gone.. But I think we are close this time.

PS.

Actually, I drew a red STAR on July 1st!!!LOL :)

yes... I should of said "10 days will come and go"

Its not gonna be out (read announced) July 1st, but maybe you know something I dont :)

All I can ask people, is to please have some other secondary plans for 1st July, so that you don't get all depressed and leap off a bridge when it doesn't appear ;)

Aaron

<<<-- Originally posted by Aaron Koolen : All I can ask people, is to please have some other secondary plans for 1st July, so that you don't get all depressed and leap off a bridge when it doesn't appear ;)

Aaron -->>>

If anyone does jump, I know a few dozen operators with DVX's that would love to shoot it :)

Many DVX operators have told me to take a flying leap as it is, so I can't say that them lining up to video tape it surprises me.

It's funny I had the same reaction as Luis, every day I'd check to see if anyone had posted and then today I was so excited finally some news and... drat.

As far as the 1st of july thing goes I suspect it will be closer to the 13-16 of july and I'm sure SOMEONE who monitors these boards will be in attendance. I'm becoming more and more discouraged about the idea of an HDXL-1 as it seems like everytime HDV is mentioned it is discounted heavily by particular users on this forum who would probably be more in the know then the rest of us (but limited by Non discolsure agreements).

I'm wondering if there will be something new entirely or if Canon will implement the thing the varicam has so that it can be used on FCPHD. (remember way back in the day when apple and canon we're like peas and carrots, then FCP supported 24p shooting and now varicam footage, but yet panasonic is mysteriously absent from the apple store website, so who knows maybe the next step will be full on HD -over DVCPRO 50- instead of this HDV standard so readily embraced by the camera makers that don't want to lose marke share for their Big HD cameras) If you ever looked inside of a Varicam you'll notice that the tape heads are small, really small, dv camera small so who knows maybe the new canon cam will have HD over fire wire, maybe, probably not.

Either way I believe the announement will come at dv expo east (canon is a platinum sponser- awful lot of money to spend to keep promoting the older and consumer cameras.. I guess) Then the camera will be available in september, perhaps it'll blow the socks off of the upcoming sony HDV cam, or maybe it'll just blow.

I really don't feel like there is a market (or growing market) for SD anymore, but maybe if it just blows everything SD away... I probably still wouldn't buy it. So please canon don't make me a SONY man.

Nick, your mention of HD over firewire made my ears prick up. Now that could be something that would take a few leaps ahead of the competition. Although it'd probably take a few leaps over the limit of my wallet too...

Aaron

For whats its worth, the HDV format (compression wise) is a pretty solid format, the compression is pretty free from the artifacts that you would assume come along with the Mpeg2 format. Its just sad that the first camera had to be the cheezy 1 CCD JVC hunk of junk.

Personally, I would keep my eyes and ears open when DV expo East rolls through town, it would seem to be the perfect time and place to release the camera... Although DV expo West a few months ago was somewhat of a Joke.

Aren't there some artifacts during fast motion?

<<<-- Originally posted by Mark Grgurev : Aren't there some artifacts during fast motion? -->>>

Not as bad as some people made it out to be.. its just like watching a DVD, but better. HDV has between 19mbps data rates, and DVD's are usually encoded at around 7 or 8mbps. Sure, on a 100" or larger screen you can tell, but its pretty damn good. And remember the only thing people have seen is the crappy consumer JVC.. the new cameras will use the high level (or should use the high level) format of HDV that can churn out up to 100mbps but will tap out at 25mbps.. all at a wonderfull 4:2:2 colorspace.

But.. if the XL2 uses that format, expect to pay upto 10,000 for it.

Probably that's not Canon's intended market, but I'd rather see a $10,000 XL1 replacement that deprecates $50,000 cameras than a $3,000 XL2 that adds no significant value over the old camera.

you may of hit the nail on the head... remember canon doesnt make a "real" camera.. so They would be glad to take away some of those Sony and Panasonic and JVC $20-$60,000 big boys... and they do however make an assortment of HD zooms and primes ready for the big cameras, so it may be an IN for them, who knows.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jarred Land : ... so They would be glad to take away some of those Sony and Panasonic and JVC $20-$60,000 big boys... -->>>

Jarred,
If I am accurately interpreting your remark, nothing could be further from reality. I can virtually guarantee that Canon makes far, far more from selling lenses for "real cameras" than they do selling XL1's. The broadcast and professional optics market is a big one in which Canon enjoys the 900 lb gorilla seat. To that end, they must be somewhat careful not to encroach too deeply on the "real camera" manufacturers' ground.

Personally I would move the red circle to half July... just to make
you not pull all your hair....

That whole "better not piss off our competetor" moto went out in the 90's. Companies dont hate each other like we all think, in fact they work together more than ever now.

Things have changed, and I gurantee you, as panasonic can prove with the 100,000 unit sales of the DVX in less than a year, The "prosumer" market is very prosperous, and a market that Canon desperately wants to get back into now that sales of the XL1 has hit the bottom.

That whole "better not piss off our competitor" motto went out in the 90's. Companies dont hate each other like we all think, in fact they work together more than ever now.Then explain why they don't have a higher model than the prosumer XL1s?

thats something you hafta ask Canon.. all I can do is guess.

My guess would be that with the strong ENG dominance by JVC and Sony, they did a risk assesment and found that to spend the millions of R&D it costs to make a new product, to sell 1000 or so high end cameras a year if they where lucky wasnt worth it... which is why they make lenses because its a better payoff.

I think Canon is a very cautious company that doesnt like to spend money in this segment or the prosumer segment, Look at the near decade old Xl1 as an example. Even thier booths at Trade shows are pretty weak, I actually couldnt believe thier mickey mouse booth at NAB.

Dont get me wrong, Im not saying canon is a bad company at all... that is just my guess. They did have the best prosumer camera from 1996-2003.

"Then explain why they don't have a higher model than the prosumer XL1s?"

Companies like Sony, Panasonic, JVC dont just release cameras, they release entire SYSTEMS including Decks, Cameras, Editors etc. Canon would have to break in to a market that has at least three really really really established companies to compete with. the only company that sells only a camera with any sucess is Ikegami. So for Canon to realisticly do a "pro" camera they would have to have not just one but at least two ENG cameras one with half inch chips and one with two thirds chips into a market that already have near a dozen different cameras with matching decks and other accessories and only wind up in 5th int the market place which really doesn't make sense. Just ask JVC how much fun it is being third and always playing catch up. The millions or R&D plus the equal number of millions of marketing would never pay for such a high end camera no matter how "killer" it is. Plus the XL and GL along with the DVX100 and PD170 have really gone a long way to chip away at the feet of the big ENG cameras. Why spend so many resources breaking into a market whos days are numbered......

I agree that I would rather pay 10000 bucks for a canon version of the varicam then pay 3000 for a dvx-100(a) with interchangable lenses. I agree that canon still holds the market for broadcast lenses but I think that there are slowly losing market share to fujinon. Will they get out of the lens business anytime soon? I wouldn't bet on it. But it might be kind of a neat thing to have both your camera and lens made by the same company for a broadcast camera.

Another thing to consider is the cost of canon glass. I know that panasonic made a lot off of the sales of dvx 100's last year (100,000? cameras) but if you consider each HD lens that canon sells is at least 5-6 times the cost of a dvx100 and each SD lens they sell is 2-3 times the cost, then you get an idea of how few lenses they wwuold have to sell in order to get the market share "lost" by the xl-1.

Michael also raises a good point but if Canon can develop a camera that will be slighly above the prosumer mark amd steal some business away from the varicam and others, then the Millions in R&D eould be a good investment after all.

"better not p*ss off our competetor" moto went out in the 90's.

Jarred,
You misunderstood my remarks. The issue is not one of angering "competetors"[sp]; the issue is avoiding competition with prime customers.

Companies like Canon are organized into market segment divisions. Within the video product lines, for example, everything seen on this page (http://consumer.usa.canon.com/ir/controller?act=ProductCatIndexAct&fcategoryid=102) is sold by a consumer division. Everything represented on this page (http://www.usa.canon.com/html/industrial_bctv/home.html) is developed and marketed by a broadcast and professional division. Development of a camera with some of the sophistication that many here would wish for would certainly create quite a bloody internal war. If you've ever worked for a large, multinational company you'll know what this means...and it's not pretty.

In the end, the market for such a camera would be pretty puny and such a battle would be unprofitable and counterproductive. Canon would probably do much better (financially) to simply enhance their photocopier lines, which probably contribute as much or more to Canon's bottom-line than video gear.

<< now that sales of the XL1 has hit the bottom. >>

You may want to believe that, but it's not true. XL1S sales have not bottomed out; just try to buy one. Just about every dealer in the U.S. has sold through their allotment. They can't keep it in stock. Canon will definitely sell (already has sold nearly) every single one they make, that's why authorized dealer pricing has never fallen. After that rebate expires, you won't be able to buy one, because they'll be sold out completely. Plus, the manufacturer's rebate offer caused XL1S sales to jump way up from December '03 to the present.

<< which is why they make lenses because its a better payoff. >>

They make lenses because that's what they have always done. Canon is the world's largest manufacturer of optical glass. Lenses have been their specialty since before there ever was a consumer video market. Ken's statement is the correct one, it's much more profitable for Canon to make broadcast video lenses for the Pansonic, Sony, JVC etc. professional video cameras, and Canon video camcorders will *always* be consumer pieces (although some are used in a professional capacity).

<< I think Canon is a very cautious company that doesnt like to spend money in this segment or the prosumer segment >>

Canon is a conservative company, but they love to spend money. More than 8% of their net sales is spent on research and development (http://www.canon.com/ir/historical/08.html). They love to make money, too: last year Canon's gross profit margin was 56% (http://www.hoovers.com/canon/--ID__41862--/free-co-fin-annual.xhtml), compared to Panasonic parent corp. Matsushita's gross profit margin of 32% (http://www.hoovers.com/matsushita/--ID__41873--/free-co-fin-annual.xhtml).

<< Look at the near decade old Xl1 as an example. >>

The XL1 is not a decade old. It's forty months old (Jan '98 to Jul '02). The XL1S is about 24 months old (Jul '02 to Jul '04). I suppose I can understand why some people still can't grasp that concept, but the two models are completely different camcorders, only the body molding is the same. There is all the difference in the world between an XL1 and an XL1S, so much more so than, say, the bug-fix between the DVX100 and DVX100A.

<< Even thier booths at Trade shows are pretty weak, I actually couldnt believe thier mickey mouse booth at NAB. >>

Heh, I would hardly call an 80' x 100' booth (http://www.nabshow.com/floorplans/s3.pdf) at NAB "mickey mouse." Although it was smaller than the Pansonic and Sony booths, it was in fact larger than JVC's 70' x 80' booth (http://www.nabshow.com/floorplans/c3.pdf). Canon is the only manufacturer to present a "touch and try" counter at trade shows. All other video camera manufacturers will show only one camera of any model, locked off on a tripod, and you have to cluster around it and wait for that one overwhelmed rep to give you a minute of their time before someone else interrupts. However the Canon counter will always have at least six or eight cameras of each type, with just as many reps at the counter, and the cameras are not locked off, but may be picked up and handled at will. It's definitely the best way to show product. You can actually get your hands on it and talk to someone about it, and there are plenty of cameras and people to talk to. This makes a lot more sense than the way JVC, Sony and Panasonic present at trade shows.

Here's what really is "mickey mouse" at trade shows: the newest products from all the other camera manufacturers are made out of trees. Wooden camcorders. Balsa cams, not Dalsa cams. Termite food under glass which you can't touch and nobody knows pricing or availability -- just that it'll be very cool if the mock-up ever becomes real someday. The Canon booth always has working models, not wooden blocks, and they can be bought today (or within a couple of weeks), not in a year from now or whenever. They won't show what you can't buy.

<< Dont get me wrong, Im not saying canon is a bad company at all... that is just my guess. >>

Oh, you could go ahead and say it's a bad company, that's okay. But it sure wouldn't explain why it's the fifth most profitable (http://www.canon.com.sg/index.cfm?fuseaction=presscentre&prod_type=pressdetails&filetitle=152) company in Japan (way, way ahead of Sony and Matsushita), or the third largest patent holder (http://www.canon.com.sg/index.cfm?fuseaction=presscentre&prod_type=pressdetails&filetitle=152) in the world.

Yeah, that tired old XL1S, that one single product sure is dragging an entire multi-billion dollar corporation down to its knees. The XL1S has brought them to the brink of financial ruin! Canon could collapse at any moment! How can they just stand by and let that happen?

Third largest patent holder: interesting to know. What's the bulk of this--optics, electronics, code? Or other?

Chris,

Well said! My thoughts exactly!

Looking forward to seeing you this week in Lake Success ;-)

- don