My opinion on the subject would be:

60i: for mostly 'real' things: soap operas, sport events, skate videos, news coverage, maybe documentaries

24p: for narrative film, shorts...

30p: a kind of compromise between this two, it's also progressive but it has more frames, as Keith already mentioned.

Of course, you can use 60i for a short and 24p for a skate video, this is only my opinion about it.

it does not really matter since most conversion software reformat the video to specific parameters.
interlaced is a pain if you are using resized video (except half or quarter sized, since this allow to skip a full frame), so reducing video first to half size is often a must
24p probably brings no benefits and is often difficult to process, since most codec are based on either 25 or 30 images/sec.
25p or 30 is great but unavailable available on most DV camera.

Having just upgraded from xl1 to xl2 these options were previously unavailable to me. I video in several arenas but most of it has to do with the outdoors. (hunting, wildlife, sporting events) Would someone please educate me.

Hi There

25P is available is you have a PAL XL2. I tend to shoot all my stuff in 25P as I just like the look. At the end of the day all these things that relate to the aesthetics of video or film are just subjective. For example I was looking at some HD footage the other day and I thought it looked just plain crap. What I mean by that it looked too sharp too clear just too perfect. It all comes down to taste. Getting back to the point I would rather keep the frame rate at 25 for web based stuff and lower the quality value. If you use h.264 you can end up with pretty small files that both look and importantlysound pretty good.

24p = Excellent for internet videos and the like, movie quality look

30p = Excellent for internet also, but not as staccato motion as 24p mode, but still gives the same effect

60i = 60 frames, bigger file size when compressed vs 24p and 30p.

My two cents.

As a matter of PERSONAL preference, 60i just makes me sick now that I have 30p and 24p. However, I live in the Louisiana area as well and see a number of hunting and wildlife shows on cable access that use 60i (this makes them look VERY local though).

Will you be shooting with a tripod or monopod, or are you going strictly handheld? If you're going handheld, stick with 30p. 24p can get very jumpy if you don't have smooth, slow movement, and I would think that following a duck in the air would require some high-speed panning.

You may want to consider shooting a combination of 60i and 30p, which would help differentiate the feel between hosting/interview segments and action segments.

Regardless, everything comes down to preference, so play around and see what works best for YOU.

For your outdoors (hunting, wildlife, sporting events) shooting, especially if you intend to eventually sell the footage to TV networks or as DVD format, it is far better to stick with 60i.

Why's that?

If he planned on converting to PAL for any given reason, I know 24p or 60i, but is there any reason 30p wouldn't work for TV or DVD?

Will you be shooting with a tripod or monopod, or are you going strictly handheld? If you're going handheld, stick with 30p. 24p can get very jumpy if you don't have smooth, slow movement, and I would think that following a duck in the air would require some high-speed panning.


This is generally solid advice, but I'd point out that following an object is a way to minimize strobe -- everyone will be paying attention to the duck, which will seem stationary on the screen (more or less), not the strobing background.

If he planned on converting to PAL for any given reason, I know 24p or 60i, but is there any reason 30p wouldn't work for TV or DVD?

Plenty of reality shows are shot in 30p.

Exactly, that's why I didn't understand the advise. Or rather, I was worried I personally was missing something and going about things all wrong.

I've edited a few TV shows that were shot in 30p (mixed with 60i), editing back down to DVCPro and not seen a problem when aired on cable...

30p looks great, it does not go to film, PAL, or to a 24P timeline very well... If you plan on mixing 24p and 30p, stick with a 29.97 timeline...



ash =o)

Don't know if this topic has been covered, but we are in dire need of a solution for the setup that we have. We have an XL2, and have shot in all of the formats on the camera. However, back at the lab, our FCP setup doesn't say that the footage was captured at 24P. It still says 29.97. I was on the phone with Rudy (AJA Tech Support) as we have an AJA i/O box, XSERVE RAID, SONY DSR 1500A with SDI. Although we changed the settings in the easy setup when we did a simple capture we checked the properties of the clip and it still says that the vid rate is 29.97. Any suggestions, and if we are all over the place, then we apologize for rambling. Thanks for any and all assistance on this issue.

Which mode of 24p did you shoot in? 2:3 pulldown or 2:3:3:2?

First off, if you shot 30P and will use much of it, you should edit in a 29.97 timline, 30p to 24p looks pretty gross. Sounds like your pre-sets were off... easy fix, use Cinema Tools to process the captured footage...



ash =o)

not to sound ignorant, but how do i process it in Cinema Tools?

So sorry to belabor this issue, but I am a little confused and would like some clarification about the 24P, 24Pa issue. I've read many of the posts about this and get the impression that I should go with the 24Pa because this is true 24p. I'm using FCP and I have both a TV monitor, my LCD screen on the IMac and a JVC high res monitor that I purchased for in the field and post work. If the footage is progressive, how will that read on the tv monitors? I do see how to do the settings in FCP. I figured that out. But, I'm still not sure whether to shoot in 24P or 24Pa..... I show my shorts on TV, Galleries and Festivals. I'm filming tomorrow and will try the setting import into FCP and see what it looks like, but if anyone could help that would be great. One problem is that people here have different opinions about settings and such and that's why I get a little confused because I'm new to using 24p. I wanted to try because I have been using 30p on my XL2 and loving how it looks, but I originally purchased the cam so that I could have the broader range and use 24p.

Lucinda

I was very confused for the first few months. Here it is simply.

24p, be it advanced or not, has a certain look. It looks more like film due to the stuttery motion.

24p (2:3) Records 24 Progressive frames, and then adds a pulldown so you can edit in a 60i (regular) timeline. It still looks like 24p, but you master normal DVD's, export to VHS, ETC.

24pA (2:3:3:2) Records 24 Progressive frames per second, but adds a 2:3:3:2 pulldown which means you capture it in a 24p timeline, not a 60i timeline. Your NLE is smart enough to remove the 2:3:3:2 pulldown (it can't remove a 2:3) and give true 24p. This is great for 24p DVD's and if you plan to export to film.

It really becomes a choice between which timeline you want to edit in, and how you want to master the film. But be warned, mixing the two 24p styles on one timeline can be a pain in the arse, and you can't record 24pA on the same tape as 24p!

Matt

Matthew,

Thanks for the tip about not recording both on the same tape! I had been planning on doing a test today, using actually three different tapes because I would like to record at 30p and see what the difference is.

I do make dvd's and dvd-r's. Would I be able to do this is I use 24p advanced? or only 24p?

I also screen videos on tv. Would I be able to make a VHS, S-VHS and dvd-r's for this output?

These are my concerns.

I think I have the settings in FCP correct and I do understand the pull down info you sent.

Some threads have mentioned that 24advanced actually looks better than 24p, so that makes me feel that I should go with the former and not the latter? what say you?

I really appreciate your advice because I start shooting tests this afternoon.

I'm going to read more on this, as much as I can, to make the right decision.

One more thing: is it the case, as I think has been said on these forums, that I should use 29.97 in my timeline? for the 24p? I already have the settings for 24advanced....will they both 24padvanced and 24p stutter when I'm looking at the tv while editing?

Sorry to be a novice! in this at any rate. I've been using 30p and as I said, have been delighted with the quality of my Canon XL2.

lucinda

Ok, you can burn 24p DVDs, and most DVD players have intelligent pulldown appliers, which add a 24 pulldown to 24p DVDs so they show on interlace TV screens. As for VHS, I haven't tried. You might run into a dumb DVD player and it'll look funky, but if it's hooked up to a progressive scan TV, the 24pA looks amazing.

I usually shoot the 2:3 pulldown, not 2:3:3:2 cause it looks jsut as good. It keeps it simple and can go on any tape or DVD or VHS! Just not to film (well it can, but complicated).

Matthew:

24p stutters,not on the monitor, but on the TV and 24p advanced doesn't move on the TV, but does on the monitor and does when I watch it from the XL2 on the TV......ugh! what should I do now? anyone? please help! can I not watch the output on a TV monitor using 24pa? what should I do about the stuttering in 24standard. I remember reading about that, but don't remember where....and I have my people coming in half and hour...ugh.

A few points --

ALL DVD players can insert 2:3 pulldown when playing a 24p DVD. Every Hollywood movie is put to disc as 24p.

Lucinda, what kind of a "stutter" are you talking about, and what are you playing it from?

24p (in general; any pulldown, and 24 fps film as well) will strobe, and possibly badly, if you move the camera too quickly. If you have that kind of a strobe, there's nothing that can be done about in post; the only fix is to reshoot and move the camera more slowly.

You can watch 24pA footage on a monitor, because it, too, is in 60i; the frames are just arranged differently. However, it's not ideal for for it because it will have more pronounced stutter issues, due to back-to-back repetition of frames in the 60i stream.

Going to a 24p DVD, you do not use a pulldown scheme -- neither normal 2:3 pulldown, nor advanced 2:3:3:2 pulldown. You encode a straight 24p file, and then the player inserts 2:3 pulldown.

FCP should have no problem previewing out from either a 24p timeline or a 60i timeline to a TV.

If you shot in 24pA, then edit in a 24p timeline in FCP, and capture accordingly. You can then either render a straight 24p file (MPEG) for making a 24p DVD, or you can render out as DV, re-inserting 2:3 pulldown, to go out to DV tape or VHS.

If you shot in 24p (standard pulldown), then in FCP, it's easier to edit on a 60i (29.98) timeline -- but you will have to go through a number of hoops to make a 24p DVD. Because you never remove pulldown, making a DV or VHS tape is no worry.

David,

Thanks for answering my call for help.

I meant that the footage looks somewhat jerky on the TV, not the IMac, not in FCP and this is in standard 24p. I was able to watch on the TV monitor with this frame rate, but when I tried to watch the 24padvanced, the TV just stayed on one frame while it progressed on my timeline. It I scrubbed the timeline, the images would scrub on the TV, but so far I've not figured out how to get the TV to work properly, to move as the timeline is. My settings in FCP are for the 24padvanced, not 24p. Are you saying that I should have shot the test footage in 24padvanced and then used settings not for 24padvanced, but 24p in FCP? I used the 23.98, instead of 29.98.

It seems to look lusher, the colors and clearer in 24pa too. Is this the case? or are both 24standard and 24advanced the same? I know one is true film frame rate and the other is not.

Also, I have a dvd recorder, not a burner. I record my dvd's in real time...dvd-rs, so I'm not sure that my Panasonic DVD recorder will read and burn 24p or 24padvanced. Do you know by any chance?

Thanks so much if you can help me with this.....I am so very grateful. I am reading and researching as much as I can and am sure that I'm find the answers.

Well, unforunately, I don't have enough time in the trenches with FCP to really pinpoint your problem there, but if you captured the 24pA footage correctly and are editing in a 23.98 timeline, then FCP should be able to display it properly on your TV. You might want to check in the FCP areas for advice on that. I'm actually a Vegas guy.

There's a persistent myth out there that 24pA is "true 24p" and that 24p standard isn't, but that's just not so. 24p and 24pA should look, in terms of color, etc. identical unless you shot them with different settings. The only difference between them is how the frames are split up and put into a 60i stream. Otherwise, they're the same. They are both acquired by reading the CCDs progressively (whole pictures, not fields) 24 times per second. They're both recorded to tape as 60i -- just in a different arrangement of fields as compared to the original 24p frames.

24pA is more efficient in terms of extracting the original 24p frames from the 60i stream, so it's ideal if you want to edit in native 24p. But it's no more "true" 24p than 24p standard is.

About your DVD recorder --

I doubt seriously that it burns 24p discs, because the feeds going into it are going to be 60i (29.97). Your preview feed from FCP will be, so it will record to DVD as 29.98. That being the case, make sure FCP is previewing with 2:3 pulldown (which I'd think it does at default, if you even have a choice). As far as your DVD recorder will be concerned, it's just receiving a 29.98 feed.

The only way to burn a 24p DVD is to use an authoring program capable of it and burning it with a burner, because you have to make a 24p file, no pulldown at all.

(NOTE: 29.97, 29.976, and 29.98 all generally refer to the same thing; different apps note it differently, because all three of them are just approximations. Same with 23.976, 23.98, 23.97, etc.)

Lucinda,

I strongly advise you to go to http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/index.html and scroll down to where you see in bold type '24p standard' and read those two sections and look at the graphics next to the text. Adam has one of the best explanations I have seen regarding the difference between the two methods of recording 24p into a 60i stream and then recovering it back to 24p.

The difference is subtle, but there is a difference in the two modes. After all, if there were no difference, Canon would not have needed to include both methods in the camera. And as Adam notes, not everyone can see the difference in the two during playback.

regards,

-gb-

Thanks David, for your explanation. I'm still not understanding why the picture on the TV stays on one frame rather than progressing. I think I have the right settings unless FCP is changing them back to some default....

I'm not sure about the dvd-r problem tho' and will research that further. I can just try to make a dvd-r and see what transpires. I have a few weeks before my next shoot and want to make sure all is correct in terms of which frame rate I choose.

Someone said on this forum that you can make dvd's, but that might be as you say, if you use an authoring program rather than using the dvd recorder.

I do have FC Studio which comes included with an authoring program...so I might have to go in that direction with this film.

Thanks again for your help!

Lucinda

Hey guys, please read the embedded email exchange and tell me if Tom is right. Thanks.

Chuck

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's 24p advanced. That cannot be imported correctly into FCE. It needs to be imported with advanced pulldown removal and is designed for editing in a 23.987 sequence, which FCE cannot do.


On May 29, 2006, at 8:01 AM, Harambe823@aol.com wrote:

Tom, how do I set up my FCE settings to import video shot in 16:9/ 24p with my Canon XL2? I went into Easy Setup and I note 'DV-NTSC' and 'DV-NTSC Anamorphic.'

My camera (as you probably already know) is designed to shoot 16:9 and in fact, I'm told, it is preferred that people shoot 16:9, because the video is better. Then the image is cropped at 4:3, if that is your preference for conventional TV screens.

The FCE Help section alludes to 'Anamorphic' but I believe the instructions are geared toward people with Anamorphic converters. I'm confused.

Please tell me what setting I should use to import my video into FCE with the format I shot it in -- that is 16:9, 24p 2:3:3:2. Also, I used 16 bit audio. Thank you so much for your help.

Chuck

PS: I have your book, 'Editing Workshop.' Nice work.

Yeah, FCP only.

I do have FC Studio which comes included with an authoring program...so I might have to go in that direction with this film.

You've got a very good authoring program in DVD Studio Pro. It will do anythng you want to do with it.

-gb-

That's great Greg. I'm sure I'll get around to learning it.

I've got everything figured out with this problem. 24P works fine and looks fine. So all is set to go for my first shoot.

Thanks so much again for your help!

Lucinda

Hi,

I did my first shoot with my XL2 in 16:9 24p standard, and editted in Premiere Pro 1.5. For the most part everything seems fine. I export the footage and it looks good. However, there is two short scenes that exhibit a strange behavior. They seem to flicker horizontally at a high rate. This only happens when I play it in windows media player. Watching the original footage captured from the Camera, also on media player, it looks fine. The problem happens when I export from Premiere. At first I thought I cut in the wrong place, so I tried several exports of this area, but they all exhibit the same flickering problem. The flickering problem is not normal. The aspect ratio seems to keep getting squished and extended horizontally at a high rate. This only happens for these particular scenes. So the clip runs fine, until it reaches this point, then for the next 3 seconds it flickers, then it continues fine.

Is there some setting I'm missing? From what I understand, after reading the rest of the posts, 24p standard just gets written in 60i using 2:3 pulldown. In post we can edit on 60i timeline normally.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
amir

This is a known bug in windows media player. It can't handle 24P material correctly and may be getting confused during the export. Have you tried playing the file in another media player, like Quicktime?

Paul,

Thanks for the reply. I have tried WinDVD and I have tried actually making a DVD out of the footage. In both cases the footage looked fine, although it looked a little too stuttery, I'm not sure if that's normal.

what confused me, is that when playing it in media player, it was fine for the most part, except for specific segments. I'm not so sure what's so special about these segements.

I will try it with quicktime player and see if it has the same problem.

I'm also wondering if premiere pro 1.5 has issues with dealing with 24P. I read something on their site, with regards to that, but it was not so clear.

thanks
amir

It has nothing to do with WMP... this is a terrible bug from Premiere that ONLY exists in PPro 1.5. It is the ONLY editor on planet earth (including Windows Movie Maker) that will handle DV but NOT 24p standard in a 29.97 timeline. It INCORRECTLY rebuilds the "C" frame thinking that it is 24P Advanced or 2:3:3:2. There is no fix, there is not workaround, you simple have to use another program. ANY other version of Premiere will work. LAME LAME LAME from Adobe... I make such a stink they gave me a free upgrade to 2.0 although I am using FCP more and more... here is an example of the "C" frame from footage that PPro 1.5 improperly interpreted as 2:3:3:2 24PA...

http://members.aol.com/ashvid/Cframe.jpg



ash =o)

Ash:

So, when we are using PPro 2.0 and shooting 24p Normal we should just edit and export in a normal DV NTSC 29.97 timeline right?

Yup, works fine in every DV editor besides PPro 1.5, works perfect in 2.0...and 1.0 for that matter.



ash =o)

Thanks Ash...it seemed to be working fine, but then again I am a little crazy. Seriously though, thanks for all your hard work responding on these forums, especially with a busy normal life.

That's good to know. I never witnessed that since I have always edited in PPro1.5 using 24p advanced. I figured that if just for kicks I ever want to film-out my stuff, there is nothing to change. The judder seems to be the same from 24p and 24pA anyway.

The Windows Media glitch is a real issue, even with 24pA. Some versions of WMP even have trouble keeping the damn 16:9 ratio intact during playback.

Other than this, is it worth going to PPro 2.0? Does PPro 2.0 handle the new XLH1 24f frame mode from Canon?

Hello Amir,
I just purchse Canon XL H1 and going to shoot a commercial, and I want to have a film look, I beleive I should use 24f SD 16:9.
Now when I import to Premiere Pro 1.5, could you please tell me, what preset I should use, and then if you can giude me, how should I export on DVD so thy can broadcast. I really get confused with the frame rates and pull downs, how do they acctually work, if you can please educate me with couple words, or just give me step by tsep instruction, what preset to use, after I capture, do I need to interpret footage? and how should I export to have the movie look, video..



Thank you in advance

The bug is always there, it is just particularly noticeable in areas of brightness or contrast and is vastly accentuated if you have a transition or cut happen in or out of one of the bogus "C" frames.

Premiere Pro 2.0 is a great product especially when paired with Raylight or AspectHD. It is definitely not without bugs/quirks though...


ash =o)

Thank you all for the input. I tried using PPro 2.0, and the problem went away.

Nerses,

I have the Canon XL2, so I'm not quite sure how similar it is to the XL H1. But I did shoot footage in 16:9 24p, and the footage does have the film motion look. In the XL2 I set the following presets to give it a look that I like, (note, this is just personal taste though)
- Pressd the blacks
- set the Gamma and color matrix to cine
- brough the pedestal down almost all the way
- I also used 1/48 shutter and kept the iris open 1.6

In Post with PPro 1.5, I just select a Widscreen project and just capture the footage I took from the Camera. With 24p standard the Camera captures in 24 frames/sec progressive, but then records on tape in 60i using the 2:3 pulldown. PPro automatically removes this pulldown.
The Pulldown is just a method that's used to convert 24 frames/sec progressive to 60 fields/second interlaced. 2:3 pulldown is good for film look if you're not going to film. the 2:3:3:2 pulldown is good if you plan to take your work to film. Below are a couple of links that explain these pulldowns in more details.

http://www.zerocut.com/tech/pulldown.html
http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/#24pRecording

Note, however, the problem that I ran into using PPro 1.5. When I exported some 24p footage, it exhibited strange behavior. You might run into this as well. With PPro 2.0 I didn't see this problem.

Once in your footage is imported in PPro, you can just edit normal, as you do with 60i.

To get the film look, you'll need to get the lighting right while you're shooting, and then play with color correction in post to get the final desired look for your commercial.

I haven't gotten to the point where I produce DVDs yet. But I have done it before with 60i footage, and as far as I know it should be the same process. You just export your footage in DV format, then use your DVD authoring program to make the DVD.

However, there might be other tricks with 24p DVDs that I'm not quite sure about. I have read some posts on the Canon XL2 Watchog board, that might be helpful. Here is a link to one

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=68206

Hope this helps and good luck with your commercial.

thanks
amir

I just got an XL2 and am about to start a large outdoor project, and am going crazy trying to figure out what setting to shoot on. I'm thinking about 16X9 24p advanced, but I had some questions...

I've heard something about the way that 24p with normal pulldown is recorded. Is it true that there are particular points in the footage where transitions don't work as well, since certain frames are duplicated?

I want to shoot 24p advanced so I can work with true 24p footage. Is it true that a DVD player can recognize this and add pulldown on the fly?

And what if I need to add pulldown to this same footage manually so that I can make it available for TV? What I'm saying is can standard editing software take a true 24p timeline and convert it to a 2:3 pulldown format once the project is complete with all its bells and whistles?

you will need something like Final Cut Pro I think. If you don't have that use the normal 24p

I want to shoot 24p advanced so I can work with true 24p footage. Is it true that a DVD player can recognize this and add pulldown on the fly?

Yes, this is absolutely true.

And what if I need to add pulldown to this same footage manually so that I can make it available for TV?

You can do this on your final render with your NLE. As already mentioned Final Cut Pro will handle all this, but so will Avid, Vegas, Premiere, or Edius. Pretty much any mature NLE you find can now handle both native 24P advanced and pulldown removal/insertion.

Bryan:

From what Barry Green says, shoot 24pA if you're going to DVD or filmout AND if you're going to be on a 24p editing timeline only. If you are going to be mixing footage, like interlaced and 24p on the same timeline for whatever reason (because you are using two different cameras), then shoot 24p and edit on a 30i timeline.

That's close, but not QUITE right.

Your final output is important, but for choosing which pulldown to use, the ONLY question to ask is if you're going to be editing in 24p. If you are, then always shoot 24pA. If you're not, then always shoot 24p standard.

Now, when should you edit in 24p? The simple answer is, if you CAN edit in 24p, always do it. (There's an exception that I'll handle separately below, but I don't want to confuse things now.) You will have the option of outputting any which way after you're done editing -- to tape, to Quicktime, to WMV, anything -- but always edit in 24p unless you can't.

So, that basically means, unless you CAN'T edit in 24p, always shoot 24pA.

Obviously, for certain things, like making 24p DVDs, you MUST edit in 24p or you just can't do it.

Most of the top prosumer-level NLEs handle 24p and pulldown removal in some way -- except for Avid Liquid (formerly Pinnacle Edition). In my opinion, the one which stands head and shoulders, by FAR, above the rest for 24p editing is Sony Vegas. It's 100% hassle-free 24p handling.

So, work with Vegas, or Premiere Pro, or Avid Xpress, or Final Cut Pro, and shoot 24pA.

Now, for exceptions (and echoing a bit of what Hugh said):

If you're mixing footage -- 24p and 60i -- and want to retain the look the 60i footage (for showing the difference between the two, for example), then yes, shoot 24p standard and edit in 60i -- otherwise, converting 60i to 24p will destroy the look of 60i and it will look more like 24p.

Or, if you're mixing it with 30p footage, edit in 60i, because 30p is horrible for conversion to 24p.

But those are the only two reasons not to edit in 24p if you can. And, to reiterate, if you're editing in 24p, always shoot 24pA.

Hi,

I've been poking around 24p.com and seaching here and I don't see any clues about the problem I had last night..

I shot in 24p, and brought my footage into FCP and specified on the sequence 24fps (from 29.97). And my audio is pretty far out of sync. If I use 29.97, its totally in sync. The sequence shows a frequency for the audio of 48khz. I tried changing that to 44.1 and it was just out of sync in a different way.

Is there a workflow or tipsheet somewhere that can help with bringing 24p footage into a 24fps sequence and getting audio synced?

Should I post this on a FCP forum?

Thanks.

David

Did you shoot in 24P 2:3? or 24P 2:3:3:2?



ash =o)

24p 2:3

David

Did you capture the footage in 2:3 as well?