First thing first; If you are using adobe premiere, you need adobe premiere pro 1.5. second, the programs (at least premiere) only show you a preview of what the 24p is going to be, at this poin it is still in the 60i format. third, after editing within your 24p timeline, you must then use a mpeg encoder to export your video, becuase mpeg is the only one that will allow a the 24p to export as actual 24fps. when exporting you need to select the frame rate to 24 or the 23.976 or whatever its appose to be, then on the GOP settings, change the 15 frame number to 12 (all of this is in premiere, im not sure about others). the reason why you cannot export to AVI is because it is strickly a 30 fps setting, and premiere will not preform the pull down; also be aware that you cannot mix any 24p with any 30p or 60i video, because the timeline is stickly for 24fps. Alot of media programs like Windows Media Player & Real Player will not play the newly exported 24fps video well, because of the frame rate. Adobe Encore is able to burn the progressive DVD and be able to play back on all progressive DVD players.

The key thing is, is that the 24p is not 24fps until you export to a true 24fps through an mpeg or somthing else. It's a hassel but has good results.

So, can you record at 24p and then use a 30fps settings in timeline, if you can't do a true 24p, or 24fps? I'm still using AP 6.5/Mac and was told I could use the 24 setting on the cam and 30 drop frame for the timeline. Is this correct?

Lucinda

AP 6.5 will allow you to place the 24p footage into the 30 fps timeline becuase the 24p is actually 30 fps footage; if you scroll frame by frame, you will see that every other or third frame is repeated; which is caused by the 2:3 pull down or the 2:3:3:2 pull down that you have selected; when you export the video, its nothin but 24 fps trying to be 30fps which is really bad. AP 6.5 does not have any 24p compatabilities; so far adobe has only recently updated their software to handle 24p and this is only in the new Adobe Premiere Pro 1.5. You should try to upgrade to FCP or Premiere Pro 1.5; their way better then premiere 6.5 (work flow is much faster) and are somewhat simmular to 6.5, so the transistion is not hard.

OK, I understand. For the time being, I can work in 30fps and what about 60i? can't I use the 30fps timeline for that, and what happens when I export that timeline. I am getting FCP, but not 'til the Fall and I need to do some work before the Fall in the version of Premiere that I have with the Canon. Lucinda

Yes, the deck should just send the raw DV stream from tape over firewire
to your computer. Your computer simply stores this stream (in a wrapper
format) which it calls capturing. If the information isn't touched in these
steps (it shouldn't!!) then the flag is still present and any editing package
that understands this flag will be able to remove the pulldown.

Yes, you can also edit the footage with any editing package that does NOT
understand this 24p flag. However, it will just see 30 fps NTSC footage and
edit it like that.

Note: if you do the latter and output the editted movie the flag will be lost
in the OUTPUT file from that point forward. The source files will still have
the flag.

when you export the video, its nothin but 24 fps trying to be 30fps which is really bad.

This is what I'm concerned about. If I edit at 30p and then export will the footage look "really bad?" So, for the time being should I just edit at 30fps or 60i? please someone help! I need to know really soon. I don't want to start a film at 24 and then have to change or visa versa.

Lucinda

In AP 6.5 of what you have; it only allows you edit in the NSTC standard(their are no seperate 60i and 30p timelines, it just depends on how you should export the finish viedo), which is 29.97 fps. 60i is 29.97 fps and so is 30p; the only difference is that 30p is almost true 30fps because its progressive and 60i is like putting two frames together to make one, becuase its interlaced, so the overall frame rate is 29.97 fps. It is completley usless to edit a 24p movie and have the finish product be the wacked out 24p in the 29.97 fps setting. The 24p frame rates trying to be 30fps will not mess your video quality up, but the motion will be wack because when you insert a 24p video into a 29.97 timeline, every third or second frame will be repeated; because its 24 trying to be 30, so it has extra frames to make up the difference. If i were you, i would just film in 30p, and export in a "no fields" or progressive mode (interlace videos you usually have it set on "lower fields first" when exporting); becuase your videos are never going to be 24 fps unless you get premiere pro 1.5, FCP, Avid or vegas. and then after that you still need authorization tools (dvd burning software) that can handle the 24fps footage.

Ok, question #2--
Are plasma screens progressive scan or interlace? I'm producing something that will end up on plasmas, and am thinking that shooting in 24p is the correct answer. Can anyone confirm that plasmas are progressive scan?
Thanks!

They're progressive. 24p should work fine, and if you're making a 24p DVD should look great.

Graeme

Thanks so much.
This forum is great!

Why does 24p seem so "stobe like" or jumpy on the xl2?

Because it's 24p. Seriously, if you require silky-smooth video, that's what 60i is for. 24p can appear to strobe if you're not careful; you must be very careful with your camera movements (pan slowly). 24p is a particular kind of look... if you don't like it, don't use it... 30p is sort of a compromise, be sure to try it out. Choose the frame rate that best suits what you're doing.

Most people have their 24p shutter speed fixed on 1/48, because this is what actual film cameras use most of the time. If you have a higher shutter speed, that can also cause your video to look much more strobe like.

tru, i set my shutter to 1/24th because 1/48th is too stroby to me, 1/24th is much smoother, more film-like if you ask me.

Thanks Wes! I've been away and just got back to read your reply. What about the 60interlaced? couldn't I use that and export at 29.97? My other question is: I have a dvd recorder which I've been using for back up onto dvdr's as well as final output. If I use the 24p option, when I get FCP that is, will I be able to export the footage to the dvd recorder? Thanks Wes!

Yes about the 60i interlaced. But please dont get confused about the number 60, in the case of 60 interlaced frames, the frame rate is 29.97 fps. Its kinda hard to understand because it does actually take 60 frames persecond; but it combines 2 frames to make one, so it ends up bieng 30; this is where you here about people talking about horizontal video lines that you may see during fast motion, and that is caused by the interlaced frames; and then they will talk about ways to deinterlace the frames, which would be like 30p in a way. when you export interlaced videos, you usaully choose to export the lower field first, when compared the progressive, all you want to do is export no fields or progressive mode. I dont know much about fcp, but i would love to get a mac and get it; but people do tons of film work and 24p work on that so you should not have a problem. Im not sure about the DVD features, but ill bet it has one that will work fine when exporting your 24p project. you will most likley have to change some settings before you export it, so ask some more question to be well informed.

Is it better to shoot with 24p (or 30p) for a final product to be shown on a 720p television? Or will it still have that jittery motion quality?

Great work... It's very tricky judging exposure of the LCD monitors... especially if they are not calibrated correctly. Adorable kid! And again thanks for the footage online!

It's all very nice until you get to the shot of the girl with the pumpkin. We can't see her face - surely it shouldn't be in the shadow? IMO it makes it look amateurish.

Apart from that it's cool.

I have been a professional still photographer for about 15 years and recently got an XL2 and am going to be getting into making a how to build a hotrod video and wondered what would be best to shoot in 24p, 30p, or 60i? I seem to like how the 60i looks in test shoots but are there any pluses or minuses to using it if I'm planning on editing it and putting it on dvd and vhs to market eventually. Or should I be shooting it on 24p or 30p? Any help would be very much appreciated. thanks, Doug.

If DVD/VHS is the final medium, you are fine with anything. In my exeperience I find 30P works great for NTSC DVDs. It will give you extremely clear images with less stuttering than 24P. If there is going to be a lot of motion, 30P can create a nice effect when combined with a high shutter. Just test it out, you cant really go wrong. The only issues with 30P can be transferring to PAL or bumping to film.



ash =o)

what are the pro and cons of shooting or editing if I shot the hotrod video on 60i? does it cause problems if i mix it up some of it shot 30p and some 60i? thanks for any help.

It all depends on how you want your videos to look. If you like the look you see on the TV shows then 60i would be the best. 30p is heading towards more a film look but has advantages by not interlacing its frames, so i can help make motion look sharper. Im not a big fan on high shutter speeds, but thats just me; most videos have a 1/60 shutter speed for 30fps and 1/48 shutter for 24fps; this is because it allows more motion blurr for slower the film rate so their is less stobeness to the video. 24p will give you a nice cine/film look.
I would not recommend mixing 60i with 30p, because when you export you want 30p to be in "no fields" (progressive) and 60i to be lower field first.
Video is magical, becuase you can choose what ever you want. Mabye you want the hot rode video to look like it was shot on film, or mabye you want it to look like somthing everyone can picture seeing on tv.

You can mix it all you want... it wont really matter. I do it all the time, like I said, it is NOT best for film out or PAL transfer.



ash =o)

Wes,

Are you saying that when you work in 30p you shouldn't use "lower field first?"

Lucinda

Lucinda,

60i means 60 fields of imagery per second displayed as two separate horizontally striped fields and interlaced to create a full frame. You can choose Lower Field First or Upper Field First when working with interlaced video (its obvious when you've selected the wrong one).

30p means 30 frames of imagery per second displayed in full frames, one progressively after the other. You can't select Lower or Upper Field First working with progressive imagery.

I would not recommend mixing 60i with 30p, because when you export you want 30p to be in "no fields" (progressive) and 60i to be lower field first.
Video is magical, becuase you can choose what ever you want. Mabye you want the hot rode video to look like it was shot on film, or mabye you want it to look like somthing everyone can picture seeing on tv.[/QUOTE]

If it was confusing; i ment to say you usaully export the lower field first in 60i; also its ok to mix and match 60i and 30p as long as you deinterlace the 60i and then combind it with 30p again. These are just my helpful tips; anyone can do anything they like, as long as they like their results.

Correct, you may have to fiddle with the settings when mixing framerates... same is true when you use a high shutter...


ash =o)

Im not quite sure but i have believed that you want to shoot in 60i and have something like Final Cut HD to convert it to HD. Otherwise it wont work

Hey All,

This has probably been asked many times, but I searched and couldn't find an answer. I'm wondering if it's necessary to playback 24p 16:9 footage shot on the Canon XL2 in the camera itself during capture (Final Cut Pro 5), or if it can be played back and captured from any DV camera or deck, namely a Sony DSR-250. I'm looking to rent the Canon XL2 to shoot some 16:9 24p footage, and am wondering if I need to rent the camera long enough to do my capturing also, or if I'll be able to use our Sony DV camera for that purpose. Thanks!

It has to be captured from the camera.

Jay

Depends... 24P will work from anything, 24PA can be more picky...



ash =o)

What comes off the tape during playback/capture is always the same, 720x480 60i. It will be necessary for your NLE to understand that there is a pulldown to apply and that the pixel aspect ratio needs to be changed to represent a 16:9 form factor.

Also, even though you should be able to play back the Canon tape in any deck, I've already had an issue with playback on my Panasonic 953 with a tape shot on the XL-2. The reverse scenario, however, is ok. 953 material played in the XL-2 w/o problem. I didn't try both XL-2 cameras as a source so it may be a problem with only one of the cameras.

Hope this helps,

-gb-

I'm shooting an image from a computer screen soon. I thought I had read somewhere that when you're shooting progressive scan images, you don't need to worry about scan lines or using clear scan. Is this true? I did a quick test tonight and on my LCD monitor I didn't see scan lines in either 24p or 60i, I guess it's a progressive format. But, when I shot my wife's old iMac CRT monitor, it showed scan lines on both 24p and 60i.

I also didn't have the option to choose the clear scan mode in the menu. Anyone with experience with all this?

Thx!

Kevin

Hi Kevin. It's the LCD vs. CRT that makes the difference. The image on an LCD panel does not fade away the same as on a CRT, so you can capture the whole screen within one frame. When you shoot a CRT, you will get a black band when the shutter speed is too fast, or a bright band when it is too slow. Clearscan lets you try to synchronise the shutter to the CRT refresh so you get the whole picture without dark or bright bands.

Regarding how to select clearscan, Im not sure, but I think it is greyed out in automatic exposure modes. Have you tried with the exposure set to Manual?

Richard

Regarding how to select clearscan, Im not sure, but I think it is greyed out in automatic exposure modes. Have you tried with the exposure set to Manual?

Kevin,

As Richard mentioned, the feature is not available except in the Manual (M) or Shutter Priority (Tv) modes. This is shown on page 73 of the XL2 User Manual as the only two mode sysmbols shown with dark symbols. The chart on page 57 also shows that Clear Scan is only available in M or Tv modes and not available in Tv if EXP LOCK is selected.

Strange, because I was in full manual mode. I'll have to make sure it works.

What about using 24p? I thought you shouldn't need clear scan at all if working progressive. Is this not true?

Thx, guys.

Kevin

Strange, because I was in full manual mode. I'll have to make sure it works.

What about using 24p? I thought you shouldn't need clear scan at all if working progressive. Is this not true?

Thx, guys.

Kevin

Kevin, you have to select shutter speed to CS and then go into the menu to adjust the frequency.

What about using 24p? I thought you shouldn't need clear scan at all if working progressive. Is this not true?



Hi Kevin. No, it's not true. Even with progressive scan in the camera, what you actually capture in each frame depends on what the monitor is displaying during the time your shutter is open (sorry for stating the obvious!). If you don't use clearscan, the monitor will either display a partial frame (when your shutter is open for too short a time) or a full frame with a bright area that has been scanned twice (when your shutter is open for too long).

Richard

I've recently purchased the XL2, and it seems every shot i capture at 24p has motion blurriness. If there's any significant movement, like swinging your head to fast, or sometimes just walking across the screen, there's quite a bit of distortion.

I've never shot in 24p before, so i'm not sure if this is normal. But if not, should i adjust my settings? Most of the shots have been with autofocus, but it seems even in manual I get this distortion. of course, here's less at 30p and none at 60i.

Let me know if you need any info from me.

What shutter are you at? try 1/48 if you are at 1/24 What you are seeing is NORMAL. Despite what you read on this and other forums 24P is an EFFECT, not a way to make your images look better. Make sure it works with the project you are doing. 24P is best for slow cinematic moves, shallow DOF shots and for the EFFECT it creates. It is NOT for everything...



ash =o)

Thanks for your help, Ash. I just wanted to make sure it was normal, and I will try changing the shutter speed.

Also, be aware that the autofocus system does not function in 24p mode because of the slower scan rate of the ccd's which can't update fast enough to lock in on the subject. That's the dis-advantage of using a through the lens autofocus system.

You have to adjust your camera technique for 24p. As you noted, fast motion has a lot of blur. This is normal and you can't pan the camera too fast, or have rapid motion in the frame. Standard shutter speed for 24p is 1/48 which corresponds to a 180 degree shutter on a film camera.

There are lots of things to consider when you shoot at 24p. Unfortunately, it's not a turn on and shoot kind of image aquisition.

regards,

-gb-

This is a matter of shutter speed, not frame rate. Any still photographer will tell you that it's difficult to get a good static shot at 1/48 second, let alone one involving movement.

For example, if a still photographer shoots a car race, he'll use a shutter speed of 1/500 or faster, or pan like the best panner in the world.

So Samuel, I suggest you play around with different shutter speeds and panning techniques before ditching 24P for your project.

so are we talking like jsut a regular blur when something moves (like shutter speed) or are we talking about crazy pixelation like what you see on HDTVs when the camera moves a lot (mostly visible in liveish shows like Jay Leno and sports shows)

We're talking good old motion blur, due to the shutter speed

The motion blur is easy to get rid of - just increase the shutter speed. However, then you are left with the judder and strobing inherent in the slow 24p frame rate, and that takes a lot more care to work with.

Richard

set both your capture and sequence settings to 23.98 advance pulldown removal. I use sony trv 17. no problem.

Um, I would recommend that you do not try to "convert" any of your footage into HD. The only thing that can possibly do that is some super algabraic software that has yet to be invented. You really can't make a higher resolution picture with a lower resolution and expect any raise in quality.

However, a TV expert told me that most of the new HDTVs are rather sophisticated in that they have a chip that detects the resolution of the video stream and compensates for it. I have seen this with a wedding video I did and some nature stuff. Basically they way it works is the TV projects a lower resolution picture that matches the source of video. You get a good quality picture without pixels showing.

They way he explained it to me this is in most new (probably last year and a half) HDTVs. Just nobody knows about it. If the chip is not working Cable television will look terrible.

Your final decision for your progressive or interlaced footage should not rest on the TV because it will most likely project both the way the camera shoots it. So decide on what you want to shoot on based on how YOU want it to look.

Bill, choosing 24p or 60i is an artistic choice. If you have a camera that has true progressive scan (which the XL2 has) you just have to choose if you want a 'filmlook' or a 'reality' look. But it hasn't got anything to do with resolution.