Hi Bill,

I'm guessing that your final product will be a DVD? If so, it really is entirely an artistic choice, since the DVD will yield an NTSC standard signal and the TV will be able to play it. People like 24p for its film-like appearance (if it is done properly, of course) AND it allows about 20% more material to fit on a DVD. Using 60i tends to give more the fast-action video look -- great for your kid's ball games, etc.

On DVD, 60i is simple...29.97 frames/second, each of two fields. In 24p, flags are added to tell the DVD player what fields to repeat to reconstruct a 60i NTSC signal with the ol' 2:3 pull-down scheme to give the film-look. This Vegas document describes the DVD workflow (which will be similar in other editing and authoring apps for any camera using Panasonic's 24pA scheme, which includes the XL2) starting on page 7:

http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.com/support/productinfo/24p.pdf

It is a quick read and well worth it for anyone doing 24fps work with just about any software or DV camera.

Remember that each format has it's advantages and disadvantages:

24P: Better resolution on each frame. Not as good for fast motion, quick pans or zooms though and hand held camera shake looks jarring. Also, autofocus takes about 4 times longer to focus. Footage can't be slowed down for slow motion effect (though you can temporarily go back to 60i for shots you know are going to be slowed down). Really the best choice if you are doing movie style camera work with lights, tripods, dolly shots and good looking talent.

60i: Half the resolution on each frame, but twice as many of them. Still the best thing for run and gun work. Fast pans and zooms look smoother and handheld camera work isn't nearly as jarring. Brighter image in low light. A much more forgiving format. Not as pretty though.

Is it to okay to mix up 60i footage with 24p footage on premiere pro? basically i want to shoot footage that will be in slow mo in 60i because it has more frames but non-slow mo footage will be 24p

Kind of surprising, but from the lack of response to a very similar question the other day in the Premiere forum, there seems to be not a lot of experience with that:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=50068

Since your question is so similar to Marc's, let's use that existing thread to continue the discussion, and hopefully we can compile more info on this subject in the near future.

I've been inserting 24p footage into 60i sequences lately, and Premiere seems to handle that fine. I used the default 60i NTSC preset for the project. It appears to add some sort pulldown to the 24p footage, so you end up having to render the 24p footage to preview it properly on an NTSC monitor. But other than that, I haven't seen any problems.

I haven't tried it the other way around, however (inserting 60i footage into a 24p sequence). I'd assume in that case that Premiere would automatically try to convert the 60i footage to 24p, dropping frames in the process. Converting 60i footage to 24p in order to do slow motion is something that would best be done by Twixtor in After Effects. I use Magic Bullet to do a film-look conversion from 60i to 24p (non slo-mo), and I know for a fact that there is nothing in Premiere that can do anything like that.

For what it's worth, I've been mixing footage in order to trim down a feature length film I'm working on. I have scenes that have been edited in Premiere and then color corrected and converted to 24p in After Effects. Unfortunately, my film is too long right now (over 2 hours) and I need to chop stuff out. And since there is no way to "refresh" a project in After Effects (i.e., when something changes in the Premiere project, it also changes in the associated After Effects project), I just have to cut down the final renders in Premiere.

So I'll stick a 24P render back into its original 60i timeline, on an upper Video track, and then trim all tracks at once when cutting out shots or sections of a scene. After that, I export the audio to Sonar via Automatic Duck's new PPro Export (a great plugin which I beta tested for, and that I probably couldn't live without now) for final audio mixing, mastering, and export to a wav file.

After all of that, I create a new 24p project, and just copy and paste the re-edited 24p tracks from the 60i sequences into the 24p timeline. I then add the mastered wav files in, line them up with the start of each scene, and then export out the whole thing to a 24p mpeg2 for DVD authoring.

It seems complicated, but it works out pretty well. I wish After Effects would pick up on changes made in imported Premiere sequences, though. That would make things much easier.

Ryan

Okay, found it in another thread

http://rarevision.com/articles/slow_motion.php#

Ooops. Sorry if I'm cross-posting, Chris.

Little late coming into this...I use my first gen' Optura for capture, basically a mini DV deck. My XL2 never gets hooked up to my computer as I have no need.
I've been using the same brand tapes in both, Panasonic AY-DVM63MQ, and haven't had an ounce of trouble from either camera or Final Cut Pro.

Hi Cory, I hope the above has helped. I don't want to hijack your thread, but my original related post went unanswered and perhaps these kind gents above might be able to assist:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=49848

Thanks to any who might have a chance to inspect the above.

There are two issues here: crossplay and pulldown. "Crossplay" is the ability to play a tape on any machine which adheres to the same standard (in this case DV) as the machine on which it was recorded. Unfortunately I have seen several reports of inability to play back tapes recorded on XL cameras on other DV machines. If it's any solace decks, as opposed to cameras, seem to be able to tolerate more latitude.

Independent of crossplay is pulldown. This is not a problem between machines as long as crossplay is working OK. It has already been mentioned that the camera video output is 60i irrespective of the mode of recording. In 24p the camera records 24 frames in a second. Call these A, B, C, D and so on. For recording these frames are separated into interlaced fields i.e. A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2, D1, D2 and so on with A1 being the first field of the first frame, A2 the second field of the first frame, B1 the second field of the second frame ... These are written to tape at 60 fields (30 frames) per second thus: A1A2, B1B2, B2C1, C1C2, D1D2. Thus four out of every 5 frames contain fields from the same camera frames but the one in the middle contains fields from two camera frames. The results of this are that frames A and B which were taken 1/24th of a second apart are shown 1/30th of a second apart and B and C, also taken 1/24th of a second apart, are displayed 1/15th of a second apart with a mix of B and C shown in between. This results in a somewhat jerky playback particularly in the mixed frame if there was motion between B and C (an object and its "ghost" may be seen simultaneously). On average, though, 24 frames per second are displayed. Because of this jerkiness there is little reason to use 24p unless you need to get eventually to a 24p medium i.e. film. When you do that you need capture hardware/software that takes the first and second frames off the tape, throws away the third frame, then captures the fourth and fifth frames and repeats this pattern. Such a system captures A1A2, B1B2, C1C2,D1D2,E1E2... i.e. the frames taken by the camera. (Note: actual frame rates are 30/1.001 and 24/1.001. Also note that I don't know which fields are used in the mixed frame so I guessed B2C1 which seems reasonable but I don't know that it's not actually B1C2 or even C2B1 for that matter.)

24p is supposed to look like film right? well i shot some 24p footage today and i dont know about you but this doesnt look like 24p to me... it looks like its doubling frames or something...any suggestions?

http://www.marlontorres.com/films/24p.mov

It looks okay to me. Keep in mind that 24 fps (especially progressive) footage
is inherently more "skippy". Especially compares to 30 fps interlaced. At what
shutter speed where you shooting? 1/48th is a good number to use with 24 fps.

You carefully need to think about motion in 24p. Especially pans and things
like that. Another reason to compose "elegant" moves. If you are going to
shoot high speed action it may be wise to move to 30p or 30i and then slow
that down (go to 24p)for example (better with 30i).

Were you in 24P or 24PA? Looks more like 2:3:3:2 pulldown or 24PA. Either way, your footage is perfectly normal. 24P exhibits similar motion as film but in no other way makes video look like film. 24P IS AN EFFECT, it is NOT I repeat NOT a way to make your video look like film. I have this fight over and over with people and I shoot 24P quite a bit but it must be MOTIVATED like any other effect.

You can argue all day about the technical aspect but 24P video does not look to the eye the same as 24P film when both are pulled down to 60i. Most the differences come from the way the source is shot. DP's on film know the limitations of 24P and how fast they can make moves, etc. IMHO, 24P video is best for slow cinematic moves or environments were you will have a shallow DOF. It CAN help you achieve a film like look but it does not in any way shape or form make up for inferior operation or production values.



ash =o)

Hi Marlon. You can play around with the shutter speed to trade off motion blur against strobing, but basically, 24p is like this. If you don't like the effect you either have to avoid this type of action and movement, as Ash mentions, or else capture more images per second i.e. shoot 30p or 60i.

Richard

Rob,
You mention "30p and 30i". I thought that there is only one '30" setting on the xl2.
Bruce Yarock

He probably meant 60i.

Jay

it seems using magic bullet makes 30 or 60i footage look more like film than just shooting 24p.

Hi Marlon,

There's a lot more to the "film look" than just the frame rate. We have an entire forum dedicated to it, so you might want to research the various discussions there. The link is:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=34

I am getting tired of people saying that 24p look jumpy..

Go watch a feature film in your local theater. THAT'S WHAT 24 FPS looks like! Less Frames per second=more gaps in motion.

I love the XL2 24p

You should too!

24P absolutely looks jumpy, you dont notice it as much at the theater because the screen is huge, it is being SHOWN at 24P with no pulldown and it is being filmed by DPs who know how to make up for the limitations. You state it yourself, "more gaps in motion" means less smooth.

ash =o)

24P absolutely looks jumpy, you dont notice it as much at the theater because the screen is huge, it is being SHOWN at 24P with no pulldown and it is being filmed by DPs who know how to make up for the limitations. You state it yourself, "more gaps in motion" means less smooth.

ash =o)

Examples:

A pan across a room at x speed may look jumpy.

A pan across that same room at x speed following an actor will look less jumpy because the actor is staying semi consistent in the center of the frame. This draws the eyes away from the jumpiness in the background.

A pan across that same room at the same x speed with a 35mm Prime lens following an actor is even less jumpy if the background is out of focus and that further drives the eyes to the subject that is is focus and staying somewhat consistent in the frame. Additionally the softer out of focus background eases the jumpiness by eliminating sharper edges.

24p requires careful planning.

And everyone should remember that it is less "juttery" when encoded in a traditional 3:2 pulldown rather thant the 2:3:3:2 also. I notice a nice improvement when watching the final 24P DVD's versus the raw footage.

FWIW.

I shoot almost everything at 30fps and mostly make it look more like film in post. 24p great and all but IMO very overated. It's all about content, lighting, DOF, and your post methods that really create the biggest similarity to film.

it looks like its doubling frames or something...any suggestions?
You are right, that doesn't look right to me, either. Take a few deep breaths..

First, nomenclature:
24ProgressiveNormal is 23.976Fps with a 2-3-2-3 pulldown, basically a "playback" format.
24ProgressiveAdvanced is 23.976Fps with a 2-3-3-2 pulldown, basically an "editing" format.

When shooting on an XL2, it's important to know whether the footage was recorded with a 2-3-2-3 pulldown OR with a 2-3-3-2 pulldown because the editing process is different for each. A mixmatch of settings will undoubtedly cause footage to appear a bit "off."

Successful editing of 24Fps content requires knowing all the steps and getting them all right. If you get all the steps right, the footage will look right.

Right now there isn't enough information presented here for you to get the help you need... Please, let us know the following:

1. What pulldown settings were used on the camera.
2. What editing software you are using along with the capture and timeline settings.

Then, someone can probably help. If you're on a Mac, I could probably help.

Hello,
I'm just wondering which of the 2 24P modes (2:3 or 2:3:3:2) I should be using all the time and whether there are advantages to using one over the other in terms of the look. I don't plan on transferring to film, but I was just curious as to whether the second method will add to the look.
Thanks

Andrew, there was a long discussion about this at:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=47160

Skip the first 5 posts as they have inaccurate or incomplete information. Start at my post (post 6) and from there on is a very detailed answer to your question.

excellent, thanks for the link

i just tested 24p footage in 60i timline in premiere pro 1.5 and its way to jerky...
i did the AE 200% drop and its nice and smooth slo motion.... but still cant figure out how to edit 24p and 60i togther easily... if i missed something..post up..
thanx guys
Saturnin

Is it okay to record 24p and 60i footage on the same tape?

Yes, it is okay to record 24p and 60i footage on the same tape.

I really don't know where to edit my footage, shot in Canon XL2 at 24p and 16:9.

Currently I'm on a Pinnacle DV500 Plus-Premiere 6 system, and apparently they don't support 24p.

Tried using Premiere Pro 1.5 but somehow it couldn't connect to the DV500's capture board (DV/IEEE1394 option is displaying "Unable to connect to capture driver" stuff in Premiere 6, and that seems to be the same case for P-Pro 1.5 as it keeps saying my camera is "Offline" at the Device monitor + I couldn't see anything from my camera in the capture screen). I'm connected via firewire. Adobe (and Pinnacle) doesn't seem to support the XL2 at all? (Canon's fault for releasing XL2's 24p mode too late, I think?)

So maybe my DV500 board has finally been unable to keep up with the current 24p trend, and now is about to be trashed? (been using it for 8 years already, despite the frequent difficulties I've experienced with it. I'll surely miss its bluebox)

So I'm now considering buying a new capture board. What could be the -Best- NLE system for 24p 16:9 Canon XL2 footage out there? One that could also support analog input, not just digital (via firewire)? Currently eyeing Edius NX for HDV because it still has analog support (like DV500... not sure though if they have solid support for 24p 16:9 footage) but I want it to work with Vegas...

Or could I just buy a generic IEEE 1394 OHCI firewire card to work with Vegas? (is there image quality sacrifice here if ever? I would want to work faster so I'd really appreciate it if there's some realtime stuff in the NLE system too, like in DV500). Please suggest anything worth the price.

Theresa,

You won't need any specific capture card. Just use your firewire port. Oh, you wanted analog out. Well, guess what? You already have it. Your XL2 will act as an analog pass through so you can hook up a vcr or whatever it is that you want to go analog out to. You don't have to record to tape to get the analog out. That's why it's considered a passthrough device.

good luck,

-gb-

My PC doesn't really have a native firewire port.

It is the DV500's card that has a firewire port, but I really couldn't get it to work with either Vegas or P-Pro or even at DV500's DV/IEEE1394 capture mode (the "Unable to connect to capture driver" thing... I can usually only do digital/firewire capturing when I'm using DV500's Pinnacle AVI capture mode.)

My PC doesn't really have a native firewire port.

It is the DV500's card that has a firewire port, but I really couldn't get it to work with either Vegas or P-Pro or even at DV500's DV/IEEE1394 capture mode (the "Unable to connect to capture driver" thing... I can usually only do digital/firewire capturing when I'm using DV500's Pinnacle AVI capture mode.)

You can get a firewire card to put in place of the capture card for next to nothing. Also, keep in mind that no matter what mode it's shot in, the signal off the tape is still always 60i so it's really up to the NLE to understand how to interpret 24P. You should get something, albeit with jerky motion if your NLE doesn't do 24P.

-gb-

ok, I finally bought a firewire card, an InnoDV DV1000. I can finally see my footage streaming in at Premiere Pro.

I couldn't get the "Capture video" function working in Vegas though... what's wrong? (sorry for sounding too much like a newbie, I guess I'm just too overwhelmed =( )

I can't tell what's wrong with the new card, but Pinnacle's cards have been trouble for years. They are designed to work only with Pinnacle software (surprise!) so the solution is to get a rock-bottom, dirt-cheap, plain-vanilla, ultra-generic IEEE 1394 card. It's been years since I tossed my Pinnacle (should be Barnacle) card. I recall something about OHCI compliant chips vs. Texas Instruments chips, but the ports I have now are built into the mobo (Intel) and PPro 1.5 works like a charm. I use it to capture off a Sony DSR-25 DVCAM deck.

While there is no technical reason not too, you should at least be aware that when using some capturing programs the 24PA flag is detected at the beginning of the capture and stays constant throughout. Where this could be an issue is if you record 24PA at the beggining and then switch to 60i later, the 24PA flag may still be set for the 60i footage. Your editor may try to drop what it thinks are duplicate frames from the 60i footage.

It can be an inconvenience and you may have to do multiple captures for the 60i and 24P segments to insure proper pulldown.

i'll be using premiere pro, will that be a problem?

((btw, I'm thinking of boxing away my DV500 board, and eyeing the Canopus DVStorm2 Pro... what do you think? Same functions like analog/digital IO but Canopus' better? Or should I wait for another two to four years and just buy myself an Apple/FCP?))


I think nothing's wrong with the new firewire card. It's just that it seems I couldn't connect Vegas' Video Capture function to the card (as in Vegas' Video Capture function does not run when I press its icon). Vegas' Preferences menu isn't giving me any hints.

(visited the Vegas site, went to support, says I have to download the 6c update or something because some systems really behave that way. downloading it now... will update you later if the Video Capture function finally works)

The card's ok with Premiere Pro, I can see things, but I really want to do it the Vegas way >=)

((btw, I'm thinking of boxing away my DV500 board, and eyeing the Canopus DVStorm2 Pro... what do you think? Same functions like analog/digital IO but Canopus' better? Or should I wait for another two to four years and just buy myself an Apple/FCP?))


I think nothing's wrong with the new firewire card. It's just that it seems I couldn't connect Vegas' Video Capture function to the card (as in Vegas' Video Capture function does not run when I press its icon). Vegas' Preferences menu isn't giving me any hints.

(visited the Vegas site, went to support, says I have to download the 6c update or something because some systems really behave that way. downloading it now... will update you later if the Video Capture function finally works)

The card's ok with Premiere Pro, I can see things, but I really want to do it the Vegas way >=)

Theresa,

The firewire card should be a transparent part of the process at this point. It's fully supported by the OS and any modern day NLE should be able to work with it barring a program glitch such as what you described. I hope the 6c works okay for you.

I finally gave up on Pinnacle Liquid Edition awhile back and went with Mac/FCP. Have been really happy with it and it's so much nicer connecting to the internet without having to have a myriad number of software programs in place to guard the computer.

Anyway, this thread is not really relevant to the XL2 so we better end it or I'll have to find it a new home. :-)

-gb-

i'll be using premiere pro, will that be a problem?

Yes??? That is the exact app that I have the problem with! I usually use vegas 5 to capture my video and Premiere pro to edit. However I have not tried using the "scene detect" capability in PPRO. I think it has it. Vegas does this by default and that is why I started capturing with that app. Essentially the capture software starts a new .avi at each new scene on the tape. Therefore every scene redetects the cadence and it is set properly for each clip individually. Another thing that can cause this is a dropout on the tape. That can mees with the recorded cadence also.

Again, you may be able to set Premiere Pro to do this but I have not looked into that yet. It is also important to note that sometimes this is not an issue. I have seen it when I have just 24PA on my tape but I have multiple sessions. Meaning I recored 2 segments at different times.....thus the 24PA cadence may not be in sync on both sections of the tape. Premiere seems to lock on to the first segment and then carries that cadence into the second.....regardlees if it is in sync or not.

Good Luck. As I said, I have captured many tapes without incident in Premiere but occasionally it loses track and messes up everything! In Vegas it is alway dead on....at least so far. Plus I have learned to love having many discreet .avis to work with rather than one large one.

Hi everyone, I'm playing around with my week old XL2. I notice that when i'm in 24p mode that set with auto focus it doesn't focus well or at all when i'm doing ECU shots. I have a full batter and i'm really holding it very steady but its still out of focus. Am i doing something?

Hello Mike... have you tried focussing on a single/flat plane at the same distance as is causing the problem?

I just tried focussing on my laptop monitor, to check if my XL2 did the same, and it doesn't.

The other thing you can try, if you haven't already, is to manually override the auto focus, it is allowed, and works well.

But you say the problem is peculiar only to 24p mode, so I must assume that you've tried all I've suggested. -- phil.

Lame answer but learn to use manual focus... the DVX doesnt even try to focus in 24P. If you are in lower light, forget it....


ash =o)

The Canon autofocus does not work at 24P. This is stated in the manual. The autofocus is sampling the image on the ccd's and 24fps doesn't provide fast enough updates.

-gb-

My apologies Mike, I assumed, wrongly I see, that 24 & 25p would behave the same when it came to autofocus.

Interesting that the XL2 won't auto-focus in 24p NTSC, yet it does in 25p PAL. I guess there's a technical reason for that (maybe the pull down pattern) that I don't know.

The manual for the PAL XL2 says, "In 25p mode autofuocus takes longer than in 50i mode."

That's definitely my experience, and in low light, if the focus is way off it's easy to grab a manual focus.

Yeah, the slower the frame rate, the tougher time the autofocus has. Low light, low contrast, lack of vertical lines, a lot of motion all make the job of the autofocus more difficult. Under challenging 24p conditions, you're probably going to be better off with manual focus. Page 40 of the instruction manual.

Even in brightly lit scenes, I've noticed that the autofocus will hunt more in 24p than in 30p (and probably a lot more than 60i, but I've not yet shot a frame of video with my XL2 in 60i to verify it).

On the XL2, autofocus actually does work in 24p, but it is very slow. Autofocus needs information from previous frames and gets its updates from one frame to the next, analyzing it one frame at a time. So the slower the frame rate, the slower the autofocus. When in doubt, go manual. Hope this helps,

On the XL2, autofocus actually does work in 24p, but it is very slow. Autofocus needs information from previous frames and gets its updates from one frame to the next, analyzing it one frame at a time. So the slower the frame rate, the slower the autofocus. When in doubt, go manual. Hope this helps,

Well that's true. It's not actually disabled by the camera in the 24p mode, but as you noted, it's very slow. So slow that I consider it unusable and that's what I meant when I said it 'doesn't work' in 24p. :-)

-gb-

Thanks in advance!


Andrew

For smooth slow motion without having to use third party software, you should shoot it in 60i mode. It'll give it the smoothest look. For an example, check out this spec commercial I shot:

www.meydenbauerentertainment.com/heineken.html

We shot 60i and slowed it down in post.