Not sure I understand.. I said it was 24p 2:3 pulldown. If you are asking for aspect ratio, it was 16x9

FCP cannot edit 2:3 footage in a 24P timeline, you should edit it in a 29.97 timeline or use Cinema Tools to batch process your clips to remove the pulldown.




ash =o)

Try 30p on for size. It has smoother motion rendering than 24p and still retains a little of the old 24 frame motion blur magic. Plus you don't have to deal with pulldown. I'm kind of on the fence but it seems a little silly to shoot 24p/60i to tape-apply pulldown-edit 24p-author 24p DVD-DVD player reverses pulldown-watch at 60i? Imho the best thing about 24p is using 1/48th shutter when you're shooting in a club or at night. Good Luck.

Try 30p on for size. It has smoother motion rendering than 24p and still retains a little of the old 24 frame motion blur magic. Plus you don't have to deal with pulldown. I'm kind of on the fence but it seems a little silly to shoot 24p/60i to tape-apply pulldown-edit 24p-author 24p DVD-DVD player reverses pulldown-watch at 60i? Imho the best thing about 24p is using 1/48th shutter when you're shooting in a club or at night. Good Luck.

If it ended up LOOKING like 60i after all that, you might have something there. But it doesn't.

When 2:3 pulldown is added for viewing on 60i display, it retains all of the 24p aesthetic.

Every movie you've ever watched on a standard TV employs pulldown. Surely you can see a worthy difference between 24 fps film/24p video and, say, a soap opera?

30p is fine; a lot of HGTV-type reality shows are shot with it. But it's not quite 24p.

Hi There,

I'm using 24p standard while filming with my XL2 and wondering when I go to FCP whether to use progressive or interlaced. I put progressive and have been reading about it, but I'm not 100% sure at this point and don't want to blow it. I'm using 16:9 because I shoot at 16:9 and will output to TV and festivals. My timeline is 29.97 also. Sorry for a naive question, but I'm really not sure of the answer. Thanks again for any help out there!

Lucinda--

I'm not sure about FCP (I'm a Vegas guy), but you should be able to edit in progressive and then render to whatever your final output requires when the time comes.

I'm a bit confused though... You shot 24p and are editing on a 30p timeline? Forgive me if that's not what you're saying, but it sounds like it is. If so, that probably isn't going to work out. I'd suggest editing on a 24p timeline, since you should have more output options that way.

Hi There,

I'm using 24p standard while filming with my XL2 and wondering when I go to FCP whether to use progressive or interlaced. I put progressive and have been reading about it, but I'm not 100% sure at this point and don't want to blow it. I'm using 16:9 because I shoot at 16:9 and will output to TV and festivals. My timeline is 29.97 also. Sorry for a naive question, but I'm really not sure of the answer. Thanks again for any help out there!


Hi Lucinda,

I use FCP and XL2. If you are shooting 16:9 and 24p standard, you need only select DV NTSC anamorphic for your capture preset. FCP will see the 24P and apply the proper pull down for a 29.97 timeline on ingest. So, your sequence setting would also be NTSC DV anamorphic at 29.97.

When your sequence is finished, export it however you like.

regards,

-gb-

Yes, Greg, that's what I did...those are my settings in FCP. Apparently I can use progressive or interlaced with these settings, but I was just wondering which would be best. Do you use progressive with these settings or interlaced? As I mentioned, I was confused by the 29.97 and wasn't sure whether to use interlaced or progressive. I got an email from Graeme Nattress who said I could use either, but I tend to want to use progressive. What do you think?

CAn someone please explain to me the difference between the two. I shot an entire short on 24p, but my editor has problems digitizing it. The footage comes out choppy. PLease someone help and try to explain it to me. What other problems do you think are involved. He is using Final Cut. PLEASE HELP!

If shot in 24p, then capture/edit in a 60i, 29.97 timeline. If shot in 24PA, then capture removing pulldown and edit in a 24P timeline.



ash =o)

Hey all you gurus out there. Here's one for you. I've been trying to digitize my footage shot on xl2 24p to FCP, but the images are choppy and not converting. Do you think its the deck (is there a specific deck for xl2 24p) or is it in the software? How do you feel digitizing out of the camera? Help, can't seem to figure it out? And it is shot in 24p not 24pa.

I ran into this same problem for a while. When capturing video, the deck, or any other device you use to digitze, will send the data on that tape to final cut pro at 30 frames--because that is what video is read as. It will still appear 24P in the timeline and when you have eported it as well, but it will not allow you to capture 24P without dropping frames. Set everything to 30 frames--it's 29.97 I believe. I just recently purchased a firestore hard drive that enables me to edit true 24P footage in final cut pro, under 23.97 frames. Other than that, you should be going with 30 frmes. Good luck.

I ran into this same problem for a while. When capturing video, the deck, or any other device you use to digitze, will send the data on that tape to final cut pro at 30 frames--because that is what video is read as. It will still appear 24P in the timeline and when you have eported it as well, but it will not allow you to capture 24P without dropping frames. Set everything to 30 frames--it's 29.97 I believe. I just recently purchased a firestore hard drive that enables me to edit true 24P footage in final cut pro, under 23.97 frames. Other than that, you should be going with 30 frmes. Good luck.


The capture issues may be related to using a deck other than the XL2. I had that issue before. I would suggest that Allen try capturing the footage with the XL2.

As for FCP settings, if you have the current release 5.1.1 there is an easy setup for getting 24p advanced. See the image below.

-gb-

However, I have, myself, experienced instances where there is difficulty digitizing footage, most particularly footage shot on the XL series, when the camera is in the LP mode. In such a case, you'll need to use the camera to directly load the footage into final cut pro.

what kind of deck are you using? I have a Sony DSR-20 and that seems to do the trick in most cases.

If it turns out that you are shooting in the LP mode, then I must ask you why. You're limiting the quality for no real gain. Especially when you can buy Sony Premium mini-dv tapes at FilmTools for a mere $2.90 per tape. If you're not shooting LP, then there may be a scanning issue somewhere. But FCP can't tell the difference between 24p and a regular 30 frames per second. Good luck.

I am using Vegas with the XL2 and I was wondering if I had to capture my 24p footage with the XL2 or if it was ok to use a different camera such as the GL2.


Thanks
-Jim

the footage is shot in SP mode

What good is the 24p on the XL2, since major movements causes motion blur when trying to replicate using 1/48

It seems the 24p would only be good for talking heads interviews. Anyone have any tips on what the 24p is good for?

For narrative film...

You can see that motion blur too in film...

Adam, Are you asking this about 24p because you have used it or seen it and did Not like what you saw.......or because you just read about it and are not sure what it is for? The reason I am asking this is because I myself have never used it before and want to know if "24p blur" would come as a shock???

You might want to ask Panasonic DVX100 owners what good is 24P on their camcorders, because it's the exact same implementation on the Canon XL2.

The motion blur at 1/48 is no different from the motion blur on film with a 180 shutter... but I honestly don't know why so many people feel like they need to shoot at 1/48. When a dp working with a film camera wants to freeze motion, they just change the shutter angle, and the analogue on the XL2 is of course a faster shutter.

Or did I misunderstand something?

I try to shoot with a faster shutter than 1/48 most of the time... at least over 1/100. I just think it looks better.

Isn't 1/48 the "typical" shutter speed for 24p? The same as 1/60 is for 30p/60i?

Shutter speed in film cameras depends on the angle of the shutter. The most common, "cine" shutter angle is 180 Degrees, which means it covers half of the time and is open half of the time. This means that at 24fps, a frame is exposed for 1/48 of a second, and the gate is closed for 1/48 of a second (to allow for the next piece of film to moved into position and stopped).

A bolex has a variable shutter, meaning you can close it up past 180 or open more than, letting more light, or more otion blur in, or less light and less "Blur"


I have actually done some comparative tests between an XL2, DVX and a 16mm Arri S to test out how strobing in the XL2 looks compared to film cams, and it is about the same. usually, try and use a 1/48 or 1/60 to really emulate hollywood film (if that's important to you).

Exactly. Seems like 1/100 and higher would give you that no motion blur, super stuttery effect (gladiator, saving private ryan). Maybe that's what you're going for.

You cant flip the switch from 60i to 24P and have it magically look like film... well... maybe poorly shot film. You need to adjust the way you shoot, you have to shoot like film, controlling your movement, frame properly, control the DOF, etc. Someday I will get a reel together and you can see that 24P on the XL2 does not have to be juttery, it can be silky smooth.

As far as shutter, I will hammer it home once again. If you using ANYTHING but a 1/48th shutter in 24P (1/60th in 60i) you are applying an IRREVERSIBLE effect. There is no way to undo it in post. Using a shutter of 1/100th effectively negates the effect of 24P, might as well shoot in 30P at that point.


ash =o)

Hey ash

Although I agree that the 24p is an excellent tool, and really does, if used properly, mimic the look of film, there are times when using a 1/48 shutter is not advantageous...

the 1/24 shutter is often used in hollywood films to help in lowlight. Although shot on a genesis cam, I saw a 1/24 shutter in "Scary Movie 4" at night, and a few others that I can't recall right now.

Also, the motion qualities of 24p still show through, even at shutterspeeds like 1/60 and 1/100, but anything above that, yes... the motion is somewhat comprosmised

If you using ANYTHING but a 1/48th shutter in 24P (1/60th in 60i) you are applying an IRREVERSIBLE effect.

Ash, isn't this just saying that the choice of shutter speed cannot be undone? In other words, if you want a shutter speed effect of any sort, you cannot change it once the footage is on tape. So if you want a TV look, you need to use shutter speeds like 1/60 and should NOT use 1/48. Etc.

So we should choose the shutter speed based on the look we want...

I have shot at 1/24th in low light, it causes more motion decay but you can get images that are too dark for 1/48th. In this case, you live with the effect because you are compromising in order to get ANY image.

I am not saying you cannot opt for or like the effect of a shutter other than 1/48, just emphasizing that this is an effect, not a light control.



ash =o)

I have to say, I think that a fast shutter (like 1/210) on 24plooks different than it does at 60i. One way looks kind of action filmy, the other is like you're watching sports on TV.

They will look different because of the frame rate but you will not get the natural motion that a normal film camera with a 180 degree shutter will give.



ash =o)

Right, just saying that the two frame rates still look different with the higher shutter speeds.

I have to say, I think that a fast shutter (like 1/210) on 24plooks different than it does at 60i. One way looks kind of action filmy, the other is like you're watching sports on TV.

No matter which shutter speed used, one cam only has 24 image samplings per second to work with while NTSC video cams have 60, which gives it a more realistic look (if there's such a thing).

I think S. P. Ryan for example still looks like film even though it was shot with a high shutter value. All it means is there's less motion blur. The 24fps is what gives the film look (not only that of course) because our brain has to work harder to see motion (hence the dreamy look often described).

I find it funny that today we (amateurs and pros alike) resist the realistic look of video because we like the film look better, even though video is clearly a better technology sampling wise (not talking about interlacing, THAT is some crappy stuff, just refering to sampling frequency).

I'm including myself in there, everything else being equal and shooting conditions not too extreme, I usually like the 24p look better on my XL2. But to me it's just like saying I like B&W more than color. Both get you farther away from reality (what your eye sees), not closer.

OK now I'm just rambling so I'll stop.

Um. . .not to get into a whole new thing here, but I don't know about video being a better technology, interlacing aside.

Film is still generally a higher resolution image (except maybe compared to the very highest quality "video" cameras, like the genesis, etc.), has more lattitude, and more color depth.

Josh, re-read my post, I'm strictly talking about sampling frequency (24p vs 60p) when everything else is equal. I'm refering to the fact that in this very rare case, more isn't always perceived as better, which I find interesting.

I am talking real world observations, not technical. 24P at 1/48th is the natural motion of film that you simply cannot get from 60i. 24P with a higher shutter, looks more like 60i with a higher shutter as the motion of both becomes disguised at a high shutter.




ash =o)

I must be blind.

I recently shot some 1/48 24 p footage and then the same thing in 1/60 30 p footage. I just could not see that much difference.

It seems to me that faster shutter speeds are more of a problem in the 60 i mode. I have found slower speeds ( 1/48 or 1/60) always make for better images.


Please correct me if needed. maybe I have missed the point here.

Some people can't tell the difference between 30p and 24. Some people can't see the difference between 60i and 24p, for that matter.


As for 60i and fast shutter, 1/60 is the "proper" speed for 60i (30fps interlaced) footage. I would only shoot faster speeds if trying to capture action that blurs too much at 1/60.

Hello everyone. We produced a commercial and we shot it 24P (NOT ADVANCED) and 16:9. We edited the commercial in FCP 5 using the sequence settings for 24P with advanced pulldown. This commercial is going on braodcast so we had to take the timeline and drop it into an uncompressed 4:2:2 timeline (29.97). We have to print to tape with our SONY DSR 1500A with SDI using the DVCAM tapes, which will be converted to BETA SP. Question is do we keep the timeline at 23.98 and lay it back out to tape, or do we change it to 29.97? Thank everyone out there in DVi land that may respond.

Actually, you should have edited in a 29.97 timeline if you did not do 2:3:3:2 (advanced). If you did not process your clips with Cinema Tools you probably have funky "c" frame artifacts or jerkiness. You can output from a 24P timeline, you just have to tell FCP how to output it... I assume you are using a Kona card or AJA box so you will have to have that set up as well.




ash =o)

I did not process it in Cinema Tools, but i did edit it on a 23.98 timeline. I can put it on a 29.97 timeframe. By the way, how do i process it in Cinema Tools as i have yet to use it.

Pretty easy, just open it up and play =o) It will properly remove the pulldown in a 2:3 (24p normal) stream.


ash =o)

i will be shooting a wedding with an xl2. what setting would be best? 24p 30p or 60i ??


thanks

Dave-

I'm no expert one this... but I'll give it a try. Im not sure of your level of experience, so take this for what it;s worth.

If you use 24P or 30P you'll have to keep your pans real smooth. You should be fine if using a tripod with smooth pans. The good part is that weddings are not often full of high speed action. Well... the reception can be at times... i suppose.

If you shoot at 24P keep your shutter at 1/48. As long as your NLE can work with 24P you should be fine.

If it was me, Id shoot 16x9 at 24P. I think it looks the best. However, some people do not have 16x9 Tv's... This presents a whole other issue.

If you want to play it safe go for 60i at 1/60 shutter...

Tim has it summed up, but to add a bit based on my experience, I usually shoot everything with the XL2 in 30p and whenever possible 16:9. I would shoot 24p but PPro 2.0 which I'm using still has bugs with 24p so I reserve that frame rate for personal projects where I actually have time to find work around solutions to the bugs I encounter.

I don't do weddings, but regardless my clients like this look A LOT. I always get comments on how it just looks "neat" or "less annoying than TV video". Those are all comments I get on a regular basis and even if it's just a psychological effect of me selling this option well, it keeps more of them coming back. To the point where my last client asked me on a 2nd project with him not to forget to use those "frame speed things" (actual words). It differenciates my work from all the other 4:3 60i low budget productions out there which are most of them here in Montreal.

You can even use this as a selling point if you know how to, especially for the wedding industry. Just enough technical mumbo jumbo to let them know that with you they get something unique, they get a film look (people always associate film with high quality even if we all know there's much more to it).

Not to mention that progressive scanning is such a superior format (personal opinion) to interlaced video, none of those archaic interlaced fields and artifacts. Can't wait for the day 60p will become a standard. And the XL2 is so sharp that in progressive scan it will actually allow you to zoom in by as much as 10% without noticeable resolution loss (works better with closeups). This is great to do slow crawling zooms in post on some of the footage to add production value, or just reframe a less than perfect shot. If you were to do this in 60i you'd have to deinterlace in order to avoid artifacts.

But like Tim mentioned, if you're going to shoot 24p or 30p, know the limitations, because they are not the same as 60i shooting.

I say 30p, 24p might make any fast shots very stroby. I suggest 30p because it gives a little more smoothness but keeps that cool looking Progressive look, 60i might be too video looking. If you do go with 24p or even 30p ide watch out for any fast camera movements, they could look very choppy.

-Kyle

Hi,

I work on PC. Haven't gotten Mac yet.
I have been shooting at 3op so far. I want to switch to 24p.

Which of the folloing softwares are good for 24p and which one are good for 30p? If I am missing any good one, shoot it.

Pinnacle Studio 10, Adobe Premier, Vegas..

Also, will pinnacle 10 catpre true 24p and/ or 30p? or it will convert it to 60p?


Thank you...

Can't speak to Pinacle...

Sony Vegas will handle both no problem.

Adobe Premiere Pro will also handle both. Some export issue with Pro version 1.5, version 2 was "supposed" to resolve, but I hear rumblings there are still some issues.

Avid Liquid will handle both, so will Avid Xpress and Avid Xpress Pro.

All these programs offer trials, so give 'em all a try and see which one you like the best and handles the 24P for the money.

You bet there are still issues with Premiere Pro 2.0 and 24p, might I even venture to say more?

What Adobe solved compared to 1.5:

-Premiere would convert standard 3:2 24p footage in a 60i timeline to true 24p by removing the pulldown frames even though it was not meant to be. This would result in de/re-interlacing with all the artifacts that come with it. This has been solved in version 2.0. You can now treat 3:2 24p footage as regular 60i footage.

What has not been solved:

Audio glitches are still there. When you export a 16:9 true 24p timeline back to tape, you will get random static noises that will render the audio track useless. This only happens for 16:9 footage. For some obscure reason, it doesn't for 4:3 footage. This was also a bug found in version 1.5. Doesn't matter much anyways, as this is now the least of your problems, read the following to understand.

24p bugs that have been introduced with version 2.0:

-It is now impossible to export 16:9 true 24p footage back to tape. When you do, you will have this odd bug where the aspect ratio jumps back and forth between 4:3 and 16:9 about 2 times a sec. You could export it using the software aspect ratio conversion option instead of hardware or use no conversion option but why would you do that, as it would prevent any future NLE to read it as native 16:9 footage.

-You cannot export a true 24p timeline to DVD. That's right, not only can you not export it to tape, but because of a bug in the Main Concept codec or its implementation in PPro 2.0 (aknowledged by Adobe), you will get an error message when you try to create a 24p DVD via the Main Concept encoder. You can still export audio and sound by changing the GOP setting (N frames) from 15 to 12 but this will speed up the image while leaving the audio unchanged and the sound and image will be completely out of sync.

By the way, I spent scores of hours doing extensive tests on these issues and still could not find a practical solution. Be it noted that those tests were performed both for 1.5 and 2.0 on 2 completely different systems, one AMD based, the other Intel. So while I can't be a 100% sure this will occur on all systems, based on those tests, chances are it most likely will.

So as a result of a (once again) [expletive]-poor job by Adobe in integrating the 24p option in PPro 2.0, I would urge you to run away from it as far as you can if you're planing on using 24p editing.

I never offer 24p to my clients because of the nightmare it is to work with in PPro 2.0, I use 30p instead with which I have not encountered problems. And I can sometimes use 24p for short projects (like a music video) where I can afford the time and hastle to work around the bugs (like exporting an uncompressed 24p file and using this to export back to tape using a friend's Vegas system).

Hello all,

First, thanks for the wonderfull resources you've brought to this site. I'm borrowing an xl2 from a friend who just upgraded, and I'm having a blast
with it.

Before he left the country, he mentioned that there is 24p and 24Pa.

Now I THINK I understand that 24p will give interlaced output. I'm pretty sure that I want 24pa.

BUT, the 1,000,000 question is : How do I know which I'm using? Is there a way to set 24pa? I don't actually have a manual, and I've read the PAL
manual for a clue since the NTSC one doesn't seem to be online, but I'm lost!

Thanks!

Here ya go. :) (Google is great.)This'll give you an idea of the differences between 24p and 24Pa. Now as far as getting to that kind of a setting on the xl2, someone else here will have to elaborate and let you know if it's even possible.

https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/support/mvp_e/user/point/dvx100/24p24pa.htm