1. It looks like in HD and SD modes, you can only shoot 16:9, which isn't too big a deal for filmmakers and others. Heck, at my TV station, our HD floor cameras (shoot anchors), they had to digitally put up a 4:3 "box" to show the camera crew the proper format, because the viewfinders are in 16:9, which is what we're broadcasting on. Apparently, the SD/DV signal gets shifted to 4:3, while the HD signal stays in true 16:9. Also, we have Tompson HD cameras, with the little "pipe/cable" out the back, so it looks a lot like the Viper HD camera.

2. There's a built-in digital wind cutter-downer (quite a technical term there), but I'd rather rely on a microphone windscreen.

3. They talk about the exposure lock on page 45, but I don't quite get it. I'm more of a man who learns better from seeing it done than reading about it. And yet I have an overactive imagination... ;-)

4. Page 46 deals with manual shutter and manual iris. (The drawings look like some of the "celebs" out of South Park...) Manual focus and manual zoom are on page 47. The iris and shutter sounds like a pain in the @$$, no wheels or buttons like on my XL-1. It's all done digitally. Select the power switch to a certain setting, press the Lock button, use viewfinder/LCD, press S/A once (a button) and do it all digitally. That's the shutter, the iris is the same, except you hit the S/A button twice. This sounds tricky, and many times, I will have to adjust on the fly and this doesn't make it easy. Nuts... The focus and zoom you have to turn off the auto in the camera, then adjust physically, which is a HECK of a lot better than doing the iris/shutter.

5. White balance looks easy.

6. Some typical effects found in consumer cameras. Yawn, since we shouldn't do anything to our initial image captures. Kind of a waste, maybe?

7. The advanced section looks like fun; you CAN do the optical stabilization, but it isn't a switch like on the XL-1 (sorry to compare so much), but you do it digitally, yet another slight hassle I'm sure I'll get over.

That's about all I found really interesting, for those of you who don't want to go through 92 pages! The iris/shutter is annoying, but if the shutter I choose can be locked, I can live with doing the wheel/digital adjusting of the iris. But a seperate thing would be nice, plus more physical switches to turn on and off auto zoom, focus, iris, shutter, etc.

heath
www.mpsdigital.com

The following applies to most consumer cameras -- and most likely applies to both the HD1 and HD10. But don't assme this is true about the JVC until someone tests it.

1. If you want MANUAL control you will power-up the camera in the M position. This is done once!

2. With a frame-rate of 30fps there are only two shutter-speeds you need when shooting under artificial lighting -- 1/60th in 60Hz power countries and either 1/50th or 1/100th in 50Hz power countries.

Otherwise, for NTSC cameras you want 1/60th S. Any slower and you will get blur. Any faster than 1/100th and you'll get strobing.

NOW IF YOU LIKE BLUR AND STROBE -- FEEL FREE TO SET ANY SPEED YOU WANT!

After setting a shutter-speed you, of course, want it to stay until YOU change it. So press S/A ONCE to set your shutter-speed. Dial in the speed you want. Do not press S/A again. (You are now using Shutter Priority AE.)

3. With shutter-speed locked, the camera will auto set the iris using the built-in light meter.

4. If you want to set the iris to control depth-of-field, press S/A TWICE and set the aperature. Do not press S/A again. With aperature locked, the camera will auto set the shutter-speed using the built-in light meter. (You are now using Aperature Priority AE.)

5. MODS COMING SOON.

6. MODS COMING SOON.

7. Press and hold the Exposure Control for 2 seconds. To unlock, press the Exposure Control once.


LAST POINT

If a camera has a good audio limiter AND you match mic sensitivity to the camera's MIC sensitivity -- there is, with 16-bit digital audio, NO need to adjust audio gain.

The limiter keeps the peak level below digital clipping (0dB) while the 16-bit dynamic range handles the entire range of the mic.

Most of us know if we own hi-output (-50dB) or a lo-output (-60dB) mic.

Now we need a spec. for the HD10!

Oh, and we need to know if the HD10 audio has a limiter or AGC. And, you can't go by what a company says. Some call a limiter, AGC -- which it's not. And, even if it is an AGC -- there are DSP-based AGCs that don't pump. Once again, without testing -- nothing can be said about ANY camera.


__________________

As far as i know, they are the same other than a selection for color bars. Plus you can set audio indicators to appear when recording.

Also see Manual Control 101.

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : As far as i know, they are the same other than a selection for color bars. Plus you can set audio indicators to appear when recording.

Also see Manual Control 101. -->>>

Thanks, Steve. Hope you all liked my summary of the manual. For those of us who want the quick summaries! :-)

heath

This company has had the camera (only one) in for a week or two, and I'm going in hopefully tomorrow or Wed. to demo it, along with an HDTV (small one) that I'll return ASAP after I'm done. My full report/review will be up soon after!

heath
www.mpsdigital.com

Excellent Heath! I look forward to the report. Fingers crossed about exposure control on this.

Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts9
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts1
www.PappasArts.com
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
__________________

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : Excellent Heath! I look forward to the report. Fingers crossed about exposure control on this.

Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts9
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts1
www.PappasArts.com
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
__________________ -->>>

Any advice, Michael or Steve?

heath

I figure this might be fun, since we're overly scrutinizing these new cameras. And the fact that I'm bored at work (as usual), why not ask what people would use this camera for.

Me, well, it's funny, I've shelved just about every film I had planned, to focus on our first big budget film (for us, around $300,000), 9:04 AM. And that will be shot on a CineAlta.

So, in the three years I'll be working on 9:04 AM, where will this camera be used? Well, I have some micro movies I want to do, fun stuff to premiere on our website (I'm working on that section with our absent webmasters) and other online places. We'll use it to document the making of 9:04 AM. I'll also shoot DV stuff for my TV station, do things at college with it. And if it's really good (or a competing mini-HD camera that I may buy comes out), we may throw a 35 mm lens on it and use that for 9:04 AM! Who knows?

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : I figure this might be fun, since we're overly scrutinizing these new cameras. And the fact that I'm bored at work (as usual), why not ask what people would use this camera for. -->>>

If I end up buying the HD10U (or other HD camcorder that may come out), I will use it some for DVD production. But probably more for shooting video for background imagery or other video to combine into my 3D animation. For most video work I would probably continue to use my XL1S until something with HD resolution capability and equal versatility comes out. At that time I will replace the XL1S.

Three words:

High definition pornography.

Barring no problems, I'll have the HD10 in my hands in about 9 hours! Clips and such to follow that evening.

heath

Got the camera, pretty cool; will be shooting later (I'm at work now).

Also, Computer Videomaker (I had a subscription when I was 13--1989--and DV was a distant dream) has an HD1 review. I trust this magazine, as the ad content (and lack of a free subscription) is lower. :-) Here's the jist:

Strengths: HD, progressive scan. Easy to use.

Weaknesses: Limited editing options. Quality depends on TV used.

No mention of the iris, etc. functions, which is interesting. Maybe
this isn't a thorough review....

The summary says it best: A pioneering camera that shoots HD for folks who own HD televisions.

They dig it. For more, check out the July 2003 Computer Videomaker!

heath

I'll post some stuff up under this thread of the HD10.

First impressions (since testing/demoing it):

1. It's EASY to focus, just like a regular camera.

2. More balanced than the XL-1, since the lens is small. After 4 years of dealing with that, I'm happy to see balance.

3. I put on the lens cap, fired it up, and it screamed, LENS CAP! Nice for the idiots out there (I've done it before, for a couple of seconds then realized how dumb I was).

4. It was easy to put the XLR/handle on.

More later as I record stuff. I get the HD monitor tomorrow (tiny Sharp 15 in. LCD, perfect for editing and field shooting).

heath

More:

The on/off switch is both easy and a pain in the @$$; it can be easy when I'm facing it, hard when I'm trying to do it from an angle, if that makes sense.

The iris thing is tricky, but I haven't used it enough.

I'm interested in what my XL-1 and this camera in DV mode will look like together, same shots and such.

heath

Steve Mullen and everyone else,

Which DVHS deck should I get:

1. The consumer model we've been talking about?

2. The new SR-VD400US that lists the same as the consumer model (but may be cheaper overall)?

Thanx,

heath

That's easy. Unless you need DTS -- save the money.

Get the 30K then have the free firmware upgrade if you get one under S# 157xxxxxxxxx.

As I was talking in another thread about this, I took the clips posted on the site here and used Vegas to make them 24p. So far, they look just fine. We need some clips with more movement ot test this, though.

The really cool thing is that Vegas imported the mpeg transport stream right away.

I'm optimstic about the future of pro-sumer HD now. I might not buy this camera, but I know that good stuff is to come having seen this.

Fast motion will definitely give problems going from 30p to 24p. Although Vegas does do a pretty good job. Vegas converts by shuffling the drop frame order to help keep motion jitters more random than a consistent pattern. The consistent pattern is much more noticeable to the human eye/brain.

Going to 24p from the 480p60 SD resolution on this camera is no problem at all.

I've decided not to buy the HD1/HD10U for now. But for any consumer/prosumer and gadget enthusiast people who have a HDTV and also a DVHS deck (or don't mind buying one) this is the perfect camcorder for their home movies and simple editing.

For serious stuff, if it needs to be in HD, I'll go rent a real HD camcorder and then I'll have the control and color range ability I need.

I have played with the footage I took while demoing the camera as well as a lot of what's been posted online - including quite a few of Paul's clips that were just made available. The noise and compression artifacting is just too much to get serious professional results out of this camera - especially if any significant amount of editing or compositing will be done. For home movies with straight edit cuts and minor color correction to put back on DVHS, this camera is awesome.

If JVC had put out this camcorder with a better ergonomic design, better optics, and true manual controls and a variable or adjustable encoding bitrate ability, I would have bought it - even at a bit higher price. This unit does tend to blow out bright areas, but this can be corrected with filters and a little thinking ahead and shadow detail isn't all that great, but color is good for a single chip camcorder and the CCD resolution is less than 10% different from a Varicam and other pro HD camcorders. IMO, what holds this camera back the most is the poor optics. It uses optics that are equivalent to $450 camcorders and it's usually pretty obvious on shots with a lot of fine details.

Anyway, it's great camcorder for what it is and a bad camcorder for what it isn't. I commend JVC on releasing this product, but I think I'll wait for round 2 of the HD camcorder offerings.

I'm not sure this review is that big deal now, when many people got a hold on it already, but here it is:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/TechTV/techtv_hidefcamreview030703.html

All in all, looks like they more like it than hate.
A fairly balanced review in my opinion.

Thanks. I didn't see/read this one yet.

Hmmm, it's called, "Shoot your kids - in high definition video style."

Shocking, but I'm keeping the camera. Though Steve has told me something COMPLETELY different than what Ken Freed said, and it makes sense, I think, I'll keep the camera.

The S/A button isn't something to adjust, right Steve, just whatever the camera feels is right.

And, yes, the XL-1's shutter and aperature adjustments are harsh, happening so quickly you can't use that. So I'll give the HD10 that it's smoother.

heath

When you get an HD monitor you'll be glad you did.

I've been watching movies tonight, and it's amazing how most set-ups are very simple. NO zooms. Very few pans.

Of course, all are carefully lit. It looks like it should be possible for us to figure-out what the optimum light level is for 1/30th. I expect a 1000W light kit will be enough. Especially something that mixes soft fill -- with a key light.

I've also found very dark shadows do not get noise -- the same result I've had with the VX1000. For dramatic a look, keep some areas well lit and others in deep shadow.

Reviewing what I shot to decide between 1/30th and 1/60th -- I noted that as I expected freeze frames of 1/30th were a tad too full of blur. (Afer all 1/30 is what 18fps silent 8mm used!) Of course, moving objects had far more detail at 1/60th as would be expected. (The DVX100 shoots 30p at 1/60th.)

But I was surprised that static objects at 1/30th didn't look as clear as when I switched to 1/60th.

I suspect that's because the aperature was nearly fully closed at 1/30th. Which says you must use an 8ND or 16ND filter if you want to use 1/30th or 1/60th -- which you do want to do. That should keep the iris from closing too far and lowering image quality.

I suspect 8ND is fine for cloudy days, but 16ND may be needed for sunny days. Anyone who has both, please run some tests comparing them.

Hi, it's become clear to me since getting my Monivision 720p capable HDTV yesterday and doing comparisons, that the ELecard and VLAN sorftware HD players degrade the image quality of the JVC's output significantly, and introduce a lot of color noise that just isn't there in the original. I would recommend to anyone trying out th JVC cam, that in judging the picture quality, they ONLY view it directly from the camera, or from a DVHS deck connected to a native 720p capable HD monitor. NOT on an "HD Ready TV" which will do conversions, or on a computer monitor. There is a wold of difference in the image quality when viewed this way, which is how it should be viewed. The software players, in doing their on-the-fly resolution conversions, are introducing at least 50-75% of the color noise that is visible on computer monitors. I was amazed at this finding, which I didn't at all expect.

Cheers

I expect that there is nothing wrong with most software decoders, and the problem actually is related to the different gamma curves and constrast ratios of computer monitor vs the intended output display. Standard definition production handles this by having a reference NTSC monitor next to the editing system. Computer monitors will always give false results.

David's precisely right. You will probably find the same phenominon on software DVD players versus stand alone televisions.

The point is valid, however - don't rip on the picture until you see it on an intended display device.

Of course, as I asked in a different thread, when you think about it there really is no good way of getting your material to an HDTV as of yet!

This just started happening. I was dumping to tape (DV mode) from my tibook/new 7200 rpm firewire drive on the HD10 (again, DV mode). The first few times, no problem. But lately, I'm getting video sparkles and audio "scratches or glitches." It's not in the computer and the cable isn't bad (just bought a new one today)...

Any ideas? FCP 3, btw.

heath

EXAMPLE: A horizontally moving rectangle and a fixed circle are shot at 24fps with a 180 degree shutter.

Then displayed at 24fps with a two bladed shutter. (Each fame is repeated twice.)

[This is 30p played as 60p.]

An apparent double image forms: When the projector shutter opens a second time on the same frame, your gaze point has already advanced half way to the ["anticipated"] position of the rectangle at the NEXT frame -- thus the rectangle is imaged onto your retina a second time, at a position displaced along the axis the object is moving.

>>>> The eye tracked rectangle doubles-up. <<<<<<<

[The second 1/60th display of 30p works the same way.]

[Note: the faster the object moves, the more your gaze moves, and the farther the displacement of the "double" image.

Slowing the shutter-speed only increases object blur thus turning the two distinct images into two blurred images which obscures them.]

As you track the rectangle while the projector flashes, the circle is flashed onto different positions on the retina: the circle will strobe. The camera usually tracks the motion of a foreground element in the scene; in this case, the rectangle is the foreground and the circle is the background. So the effect is usually called background strobing .

If, as in this example, the background comprises a single, small element, it will be mapped onto the retina in a periodic spatial pattern. [The strobe.]


In cinema, one of the functions of the cinematographer is to prevent excessive background strobing. He or she does this by controlling the speed of moving foreground elements with respect to the camera, and by controlling the visual content of the background. Background strobing only occurs when a foreground element is being eye tracked. If the cinematographer can make a good guess, based on the nature of the scene, on what elements the viewer will track, this will help to minimize the visibility of strobing artifacts.

Poyton goes on to explore how these artifacts will be more visiblw on a large screen rather than a TV -- and how CRTs differ from LCDs/DLPs.

Heath,

I haven’t had my HD10 long enough to really comment, but here’s a speculation. Have you tried cleaning the heads? I don’t know if it was a thread in this forum or on another forum altogether, but I read were someone was experiencing picture degradation with heavy pixilation. Turned out, after cleaning the heads everything got all better. I did note that a head cleaner tape was supplied with my HD10. Perhaps this format is more susceptible to dirty heads?

Or, the head design driven by the format can clog up easier?

<<<-- Originally posted by Raymond Krystof : Heath,

I haven’t had my HD10 long enough to really comment, but here’s a speculation. Have you tried cleaning the heads? I don’t know if it was a thread in this forum or on another forum altogether, but I read were someone was experiencing picture degradation with heavy pixilation. Turned out, after cleaning the heads everything got all better. I did note that a head cleaner tape was supplied with my HD10. Perhaps this format is more susceptible to dirty heads?

Or, the head design driven by the format can clog up easier? -->>>

Makes sense, except...It's not on the tape, it's when I'm feeding into the camera. I hooked up my friend's XL-1 to my camera and hard drives, and no problems with the signal.

heath

It's particularly evident in the cheap "turn off your cell phone" animation that usually plays before the movie in some chains. Since they don't render with motion blur, *all* edges are hard, and split into pairs during motion due to the double-bladed shutter.

Same thing with 30p video displayed as 60i or 60p. 24p is even trickier due to the 2-3 pulldown -- it's like projecting a movie with a shutter that alternates between 2 blade and 3 blade every other frame.

Also, this is what causes the so-called "rainbow effect" with single-chip DLP projectors. Since the RGB images are temporally displaced, while your eye is tracking an object, the non-moving background breaks up -- any bright edges against dark backgrounds break-up with color fringing. It really bothers some people.

///d@

I see really good "Buy Now" prices for HD1s on ebay but I don't see any for the HD10. Do you guys have any advice about where I can purcahse an HD10 for below list price?

I'd really appreciate any advice. Thanks!

How does the HD10U compare with a 3 chip camera like the XL-1 in terms of light sensitivity?
How does it compare to other single chippers like the Canon Elura?
Can you turn the gain off?

Thanks,

Jeff

B&H Photo. Just got mine today(HD10). They charged $3270 plus something close to actual shipping cost. Four year warranty for another $150. This is also a reputable company. When you buy from Ebay you never know.

yes, you can turn the gain off. i have only had experience with a gl-1 and a trv-950 (both 3 chip but smaller ccd) which both perform better in low light without gain. the low light on the jvc isn't very good (at least without AGC, i dont use it and i hear it doesnt do much anyway) but i dont think its a problem if you have control of the lighting....i dont think this is a camera for run-n-gun or average use...........my 2 cents anyway.

I found out how to put the audio levels display up (no sign of what an adequate dB would be, though, which is bad), but couldn't find a way to control the levels. It didn't seem automatic, since a lav plugged in kept peaking.

Any clues? Totally auto? If the audio can't be controlled, then I give up (again) and may go with a mixer, but that might not do much.

If I still had my XL-1, I'd go with a DAT because I was never happy with the audio going through even a mixer into the XL-1.

heath

The HD10 has AGC which means you don't need to know the dB -- only an indication that your mic is working.

In other words the limiter in the AGC prevents recording too high -- above -6dB. And, the Auto Gain in the AGC will bring up gain if audio is too low.

If you add a mixer it will mix -- but not set exact level. The relative levels will be passed through which is what you want.

The mixer output should be set to NOT overload the camcorder's input circuit -- which means it's output voltage must be for a mic input. This is normally the case for camcorder mounted mixer. (You do not want LINE level output.)

I'm trying to figure out how to transfer a DV project from an XL-1 to my HD10 to have it on Hi Def. Is this possible without hardware, etc.?

Thanks,

heath

"The biggest problem is that file types cannot be mixed. If the first file in the bin is HD, then only HD files can be added. If it's SD, then only SD files."

I'm not sure why one would ever need to mix these two.


"It does not appear to accept AVI or MPG files at all."

Now this is more serious since one can't repurpose NTSC sources.

And, as you found out -- simply encoding TO the spec doesn't work.

I'm finding the same problem on the OS X side. A seemingly perfect MPEG-2-TS file is rejected for recording by the camcorder -- yet the camcorder decodes it to analog component output.

dave k wrote:
>I think we need a utility co convert between M2T and MP2
>files while maintaining all parameters, without re-compressing.

i was under the impression that when using a utility to demux/de-multiplex an mpeg2-ts into its mpeg2+audio components (like Xmuxer on windows, for instance), it doesnt recompress on doing so.

Sound & Vision has an article on the 10U. I didn't read the whole article nor did I purchase the magazine. However, I read that the playback lines are 425 in DV, and that in HD mode it records 550 lines to tape. The author of the article is David Ranada. (That can't be a real name.) I just thought I'd mention this.

I am reading about these and i just have a lot of questions about this, so i'd really appreciate it if someone who owns one or has worked with one would instant message me some time, my screen name is "PARDON ME QUEEN" so i could ask them a few questions about this camera.

<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Kelly : I am reading about these and i just have a lot of questions about this, so i'd really appreciate it if someone who owns one or has worked with one would instant message me some time, my screen name is "PARDON ME QUEEN" so i could ask them a few questions about this camera. -->>>

If you surf around the board, you will find that a lot of questions will be answered. If you don't find them, post them up and we'll answer them, that way others can learn, too.

heath

When are the 3 chip consumer mpeg2 HD cams coming?

When you find out, let us know. :) I doubt any time soon, unless that recent GL2 rebate means something new is coming. Whether it'll be a MPEG2 HD 3-CCD model or something along the lines of a PDX/953 with a 16:9 option, we'll just have to wait and see. Perhaps JVC has something up their sleeves with the recent price drop of their Streamcorder. Why worry? At least 1-chip HD is here today.

Every now and then someone mentions they bought an extended warranty for $150 for the HD10. Where did you all buy it from and who handles the warranty? Mack Camera?

THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!

heath

Yes the B&H Warranty is through MACK.

<<<-- Originally posted by Randall Morton : Yes the B&H Warranty is through MACK. -->>>

Thanks!

heath

Does anyone here have experience with this "Cineline" camera? It isn' progressive scan, HD or 24p and yet JVC totes this baby as having the best resolution for film blowups. I would love to hear from people who have hands on experience with this camera or can at least shed some light. My interest is piqued and I might buy one!

It records in the standard-definition DV format on full size or Mini-DV cassettes, but it does have 2/3" CCD's which are native 16x9.