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June 9th, 2008, 06:43 PM | #166 | ||||||
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You see Steve I have both Canon and Sony...I've got no grudge against either company and I have both of their HD cameras. I tried both the HF10 and SR12 and found the SR12 simply produced superior video that didn't need to be 'fixed in post'. Would I like more manual controls and dedicated buttons on the Sony? Sure. But the Sony for me is the best of the current crop, producing what to my eyes looks like the most accurate color and best dynamic range. Quote:
The other thing that seems to elude you is that videography and photography express their art in composition...not just the presence or absence of computer controls. All the manual controls in the world won't get you the proper composition Steve. Give me the guy that knows what he's doing and I'll give him a 'dumb camera' like the Sony and he'll constantly produce superior results to the guy with all the manual controls in the world but no sense of art. But there you are buying the Sony to 'objectively' test it. Okeedokey. I'll make the same prediction I made with the other guy who 'objectively' tested it. :) |
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June 9th, 2008, 09:35 PM | #167 |
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Basically you are saying that somehow a $1,000 Sony consumer camcorder is so smart and well designed that it eliminates the need for manual controls. (Zebra doesn't control anything!) And, you are saying your one day test PROVES your claims.
You may be 100% correct, but you are asking folks to believe that somehow Sony has repealed the laws of optics and that somehow Sony's shutter doesn't work like any other cameras shutter. Or, put another way, you are asking me to reject what I know about how cameras work by saying YOU don't see any problems. And, you are saying your one day test PROVES your claim. You've got to know that subjective tests test the viewer more than they do a camera. You seem unwilling to assume that had you used both cameras for a month AND really learned HOW to use the Canon you might have come to a very different conclusion. You made your decision in a few hours in a very limited set of conditions, posted a review, and now defend it. You made no tests of 24p or 30p (because you don't like how they look) and dismissed Cine gamma even though every posted pix shows it to look better. You didn't even consider that Canon was aiming for a look with deeper shadows and reduced highlights because many folks believe it looks more like film. I may not like that look either, but when I review a camera I do so in the context that other folks want/need different looks. Bottom-line you didn't review the camcorders. You compared camcorders only based upon what YOU need and HOW YOU want to work and the LOOK you want. That's not a review. It takes a month of experience to write a professional review of one camera. Several months to compare two cameras. That's why pro reviewers get paid for their reviews. It requires the objectivity you casually dismiss as a waste of time. I'm not biased in favor of the Canon as you claim. How could I be as I've not used it yet? I only mentioned the Canon to prove Sony had a choice. Size and cost did not force Sony to not put in manual controls. I fully expect I'll have a long list of stupid Canon issues -- like no VF. And, I'm not biased against the Sony either. Why not relax and let someone share their take on a camcorder even if it conflicts with your opinions? PS1: I shot indoors with sun coming in windows and blue skylight coming from other windows. A classic MIXED light situation. The Sony AWB was NOT accurate. (It was too blue) Only One-touch was. This is exactly what I predicted in my previous post. So already I know I can't trust AWB and I know a three deep menu system is going to be a bitch to use in the field. PS2: The AF seems as good as the V1/FX7 and if this proves the case, that is a huge PLUS for the Sony. PS3: Why would Sony put OPTIONS only on the screen. If you turn-off Display, you can't get to the Options. And, why not have only one OPTION menu -- in Movie Mode -- come-up with six most used in-field functions: Focus, Spot Focus, Exposure, Spot Exposure, WB, and SLO-Mo. There should be ONE toolbox under the Home menu. This is a major departure from the excellent menu systems in other Sony cams. PS4: Now matter how accurate the exposure and WB, every clip needs to be CC to make them match other. That's why CC is such a big part of production. Just like EQing and mixing audio.
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June 9th, 2008, 10:13 PM | #168 |
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I suspect that Sony may have done a good market research on the target buyers of their consumer cams. The findings may have indicated most of their prospective buyers i.e. soccer moms, parents of kindergarten kids, students on school breaks etc. couldn't care less about strobing, constant changes in exposure or depth of field or slightly soft images because of lens diffraction. Or they may simply have not seen them in their videos.
A good business decision therefore was obvious, making svelt-looking camcorders void of unsightly control knobs or buttons, shifting exposure be damned! Some questions remain, though. If the majority of casual users value simplicity of use above all else, why companies like Canon, Panasonic, JVC, Sanyo and the rest keep offering consumer cameras with physical controls on similar sized bodies e.g. Canon HF10, HF100, HV20, HV30 or most Panasonic and JVC models. Could it be that their target users are more knowledgeable or they have just done a poor research? Wacharapong |
June 9th, 2008, 10:37 PM | #169 |
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When did they remove the zebras from the Canon? My HV10 has them...
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June 9th, 2008, 11:05 PM | #170 | |
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But, Sony does include other features like Spot Exposure and Focus that seem to indicate they DO think their customers want to take control. Why not shutter-speed? Remember in one of my first posts I speculated they may use a Program to control exposure. Here's how they work. They start at 1/60th second, and as light increases they DON'T change the iris. They gradually change exposure TIME. When the TIME gets to some value -- typically 1/250th or 1/500th -- they decrease Iris 1-stop, and reset time to 1/60th. This, process repeats until they get to 1/250th or 1/500th at f/8. This gets them about a 9-stop range. Note how this makes f/8 the last resort. Ken may have never shot in bright sun on top of a mountain with new snow. When you lock the shutter at some value -- you restrict control to just the iris. Because the iris is mechanical, it is far less accurate than adjusting exposure time. So, to support rapid and accurate exposure -- Sony doesn't allow locking the exposure. One solution is to offer a mode where the limit is 1/125th. This can be used in conjunction with a Program starting at 1/30th. I wish Sony had provided this mode just like the SLOW SHUTTER Mode. A work-around is to find one of the special modes. For example, SPORTS biases speed to to 1/250th. Perhaps, there is a mode, that biases speed down. Another is to add an ND filter. Of course, you need to carry several ND filters. :) PS: I notice there is no flicker filter option.
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June 10th, 2008, 12:42 AM | #171 | |
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All manufacturers try to differentiate their products, and having designed products for various companies (not cameras) their feature choices usually reflect both the marketing research as well as their own values. Of course, cost matters, so features get traded off against each other for a given price point. For example, Sony has decided to eliminate some manual features and instead put the money into something else, perhaps build quality, which most people seem to think is better on the Sony For the buyer in the consumer camera class, this all usually means that no one camera has every feature they might want, so you weigh them and pick the combination that works best for you. What's important here is that different photographers/videographers value different characteristics and features. That's why Sony, JVC, Panasonic, Canon (and others) can all successfully sell cameras. If one particular model was right for everyone, the others would all go out of business really fast, which they haven't. |
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June 10th, 2008, 03:31 AM | #172 |
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A couple times when I was on vacation with my family I brought along my FX-1. My wife asked what (on earth) all those buttons and knobs on the camera were for. Didn't know what to say so I told her that believe it or not, these buttons and knobs just made my shooting easier, which they really did. I also told her I could have brought "the small one" (HC-1) but that would have made my life very hard with all the poking and squinting at the screen just to get some decently shot video. I could have gone full auto on THE SMALL ONE but then again this was just as easy to do on THE LARGER ONE.
How do you guys normally manage this? Best Wacharapong |
June 10th, 2008, 04:32 AM | #173 | |||||||
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As I've contended before, the Sony will need far far far less color correction in post than will the Canon. Even in post there will be times (more times than the Sony) that you will simply be unable to adequately correct the Canon. Again, I'll choose the camera with less manual controls (but still possessing some missing in the other camera) that produces a better, more accurate picture than the one with more controls. And yes, that's my opinion. To answer your question in your last post Steve, no, I haven't shot on top of a mountain with freshly fallen snow. But I have shot at the beach during an air show and saw no softening or any other lens anomolies. Just clean, razor sharp video. |
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June 10th, 2008, 07:13 AM | #174 |
Obstreperous Rex
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The caution flag is out -- drivers are advised to ease up and proceed with care.
Let's not get personal, folks. Please keep it technical. Debate the idea, not the individual. Thanks in advance, |
June 10th, 2008, 07:14 AM | #175 |
Obstreperous Rex
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Unfortunately the Canon VIXIA HF100 and HF10 flash memory cameras do not have zebras.
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June 10th, 2008, 01:56 PM | #176 |
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Really the debate is between...
A. a camera with a lot of artificial intelligence that seems to do a pretty good overall job, getting colors correct under most circumstances but allowing options to adjust, getting exposure correct with good lattitude and options to allow adjustment, and fairly reliable focus, with options to allow adjustment... B. a camera with more manual tweaks, that also does a pretty good overall job, but colors are a bit "off" (I owned an HV20 for plenty long enough to decide I did not like the rendition of certain colors, particularly reds and certain greens, blues and purples... and others report the same "opinion"), getting exposure correct, but requiring alternate modes to do it well, and missing some key indicators (zebras), and spot on iAF with limited access to adjustment... I find that a cam that gets a more accurate, clean, usable shot that I can almost leave alone in post or alter as I wish makes the most sense to me. I've found that with the SR11, I don't feel the "need" to try to make the footage look right in post - and that's a strange feeling when one is used to having to "tinker" to get the video to look like what you THOUGHT you shot... I hope that makes sense - it's the best explanation I can come up with. If I WANTED a color shift, I can do that in post, if I want to blow out the footage, I can do that in post, focus... well, that's got to be right, and a bigger screen and a VF help to be sure that is OK while shooting. Perhaps the REAL debate here is over how much "fix it in post" is required by a given camera... I think what the guys who have shot with the SR11/12 are saying is that it just requires less tweaking to look great - images are clean, sharp, and look accurate - hard to argue with THAT. I think all of us would jump at a camera with comparable IQ and a few manual features added in... but that's not how it comes out of the box, so we accept the "limitations" along with the RESULTS. That's how it is with technology. Maybe next year Sony will grace us by unlocking a few more features the way they did with the HC9... And I would be shocked if there were not a couple more new product announcements - there's no way Sony is going to let Panasonic steal all the thunder with the 150... IMO anyway. |
June 10th, 2008, 03:50 PM | #177 |
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Dave, I agree 100%. I think another key issue worth repeating is that this cam will be used in many 'spur of the moment' shots when we don't have the time to tinker with shutter speeds, lens opening, white balance etc. It's those shots that you must take in an instant or lose them forever. This is the area that the Sony excels.
When I do a shoot professionally, I have the luxury of time in setting everything right. Such is not the case when we use these cams for 'fun'. As you say, I want the option of doing what I want in post, not the necessity. |
June 10th, 2008, 04:19 PM | #178 |
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I think this is at least part of the point. Does one criticize the materials used in an oil painting? The brushes? The canvas? NO, one looks at the end result. Does one look at a classic movie and say it must not be good because it was shot with old outdated technology? Does the Beatles stuff done on a 4 track become invalid because it wasn't done on a 48 track digital workstation?
It's far too easy to get caught up in the tools and specs and so on and forget that the ultimate question is "did you get that shot"? If you have a small camera of satisfactory quality and captured the moment vs. not getting it because your big camera with lots of buttons was too much trouble to drag along... Are you going to sit there and critique the shot because the camera wasn't quite "perfect"... or be glad you captured the moment? Sure, if you're talking "serious" productions, these li'l guys might be a bit short on features for some things... but it's the operator, not the camera, and these are amazing little tools for the $. Just like when word processing became "common" and EVERYONE could be an author... you'll get both good results and drek depending on the nut behind the lens! Some of those results will be for no more than the amusement of family and friends, others shared over the web for 15 seconds of fame, and who knows, maybe some will lead to something much more. |
June 10th, 2008, 09:49 PM | #179 |
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I think you are forgetting four things that seem obvious to me:
1) I did NOT BUY the SR11. I have it from Costco for 90-days. If they had the Canon in stock, I would have brought it home first. So quit asking why I bought something and then criticize it. 2) One can tell a lot about a camera LONG before shooting with it. I already know the Sony menu system is a mess. I don't need to walk around in 100-degree heat to figure this-out! And, I build a list of tests to perform BEFORE I go outside and shoot. Given the heat and dust storms right now in LV -- I may not shoot for a week. So what? 3) I have already said that if I had the Canon -- at this point in the process I might have a longer list of "problems." Quit attacking me because I have different views than you. 4) AUTO Image quality is NOT the most important thing in the world. IMHO, what's important is the best image quality a skilled shooter can get using the controls provided by the camera. Or, for the person who MUST shoot in 24p, the camera that delivers the best quality in 24p. Pushing 60i quality is of no value to them. Or, the camera with the best ergonomics. I already feel the SR11 strap -- which is too low -- cutting into my hand. I already find my thumb not resting on the trigger-button. I already realize the zoom control not falling under my fingers. A camera that feels lousy doesn't get used. (And, don't bother telling me the Canon is even worse. I'll deal with the Canon when I have it in hand.) I know folks who bought the lesser known JVC HD7 because they could shoot weddings with a "pro" looking camcorder. They can't show-up with the same camera the bride's father has. These shooters know that 99% of those who view the wedding DVD videos will find the video shot in HD with ANY camera to look great. They know the key is what they can say in the sales pitch. THREE CCDS sound better than ONE CMOS. In the end -- I may not keep either one. I may feel the better VALUE is the Pana AG-HNC150. Or, maybe I'll wait until SD card prices fall. Walmart had 4GB (1 hour) cards for $60. When the price falls to $20 -- I can use cards just like tape. At this point HD-based camcorders make no sense TO ME.
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June 10th, 2008, 10:37 PM | #180 |
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Sure that's important, but a skilled shooter isn't who the camera is made for, so it should come as no surprise if those controls aren't there (or are there only partially). These camcorders are designed to produce the best possible image quality in the hands of an *unskilled* shooter -- that's the target market for this kind of camera. In other words, I don't think a skilled shooter should realistically expect to find much in terms of available controls on something like this.
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