Assessment of the HF10 vs the SR12

[Chris Hurd]

RED's Scarlet will sell for $3K, still leaving the $1K to $3K bracket wide open.

[Ken Ross]

That's true Chris, but it seems the level of performance will be unprecedented. We used to spend this much for much lesser performance. But man, it is one weird looking device!

[Dave Blackhurst]

Originally Posted by Ron Evans

Steve as far as I am aware LANC is a protocol not a plug. Sony in fact say LANC accessed via the A/V plug. In fact early on LANC was on a DIN plug on my Sony Super VHS deck I had an adapter for Din to 1/8" or 1/4" plug too. There are several posts around extracting LANC from the A/V terminal. It seems to have been changed to the 1/8" plug around the time of Hi8 deck introduction. The Fast Video Machine editor I had came with cables for DIN Sony and DIN Panasonic and I had adapters to go to 1/8"

Ron Evans

LANC would be the "software" or communication language - Sony service manuals refer to the pins on the A/V plug as "LANC". The only difference is that you have to activate the interface on the camera - lots of stuff on the A/V jack... but I've tested a number of existing LANC controllers with an adapter, and they work as expected, once the camera is signalled to expect the LANC input there.



It's funny, I think we all are having the same "fantasy camera"... IMO, you need to get bigger glass on the front end for light gathering, but I'm not sure that means you have to go as large as the FX7 (which was a greatly underrated cam, with lots of manual control!). Not much more than a slightly larger form factor, a bit better low light (manual slower shutter speeds), and a couple buttons and a wheel or whatever to adjust the settings... is that SO MUCH to ask???

Sony... are you paying attention? There's a HUGE HUGE HUGE gap between the $1K "consumer" cams, which are amazing for the money and the $4K (realistically the FX7 is gone...) "prosumer" lines.

I believe we should see SOME announcements soon with the CX7 and FX7 due for replacement (the CX7 came late in the year IIRC). MAYBE we'll get an FX9 or 11 or whatever and we can all smile! Right now sony has NOTHING competing with Canon HF series and the panasonic flash cams, and NOTHING competing with the upcoming Panasonic 150/170 and the existing Canon midrange... THAT won't last long... maybe soon we will all be able to drool over the "perfect" cam... until then, I'm pretty happy with the CX7, FX7, and SR11!

[Ron Evans]

I agree Dave that the SR11 produces better pictures that my FX1 in some circumstances ( most if I am honest !!!) The SR11 lacks the control need for difficult light conditions and likely lacks the lens etc for these too. The SR11 also is not as good at capturing fast motion closeup, fast movement across the scene when the image will blur slightly indicating to me that the encoder is having difficulties keeping up with the amount of data generated. When this motion stops the image detail increases back to the lovely depth of colour that the FX1 does not seem able to produce. I would love a camera that either had better controls and lens at a midway price to the FX1 or even a FX1 replacement with the newer technology. I too feel Sony will produce some new products in the near future to compete with the upcoming Panasonic 150. Should be a good Christmas!!!!

Ron Evans

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Ron Evans

There are several posts around extracting LANC from the A/V terminal.

On this site?

I would think you would have a very hard time buying an AV plug from Sony.

Yes -- i started with DIN and the came the mini-plug. My pistol-grip is a miniplug.

[Mike Burgess]

Now that I am through kicking myself for not getting an FX7 when the prices were good, I am quietly waiting for some kind of eventual announcement from Sony for a new prosumer cam (FX11?). In the meantime, I am enjoying my SR11 (and starting anew saving for a new prosumer camcorder).

Respectfully,
Mike

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Mike Burgess

Now that I am through kicking myself for not getting an FX7 when the prices were good, I am quietly waiting for some kind of eventual announcement from Sony for a new prosumer cam (FX11?). In the meantime, I am enjoying my SR11 (and starting anew saving for a new prosumer camcorder).

Respectfully,
Mike

Sony loaned me a V1 for about a year and while it was very good -- it was long and weighed too much. I could buy one from a friend who bought an EX1, but I don't think its what I really want.

Chris may know -- is it possible the companies are keeping a huge $ range because it so effectively divides the sales channels. I remember when the big box stores used to carry the prosumer camcorders. You could buy a VX3 anywhere.

[Dave Blackhurst]

Hi Steve -
Yes on this site - the hack was originally for the CX7, works on the SR11 as well. I'm trying to finalize detailed instructions on how to access the various functions on th A/V jack, just been swamped with other things. If you're handy with a soldering iron, it's pretty easy to make an adapter from a cheap chinese FS15 cable copy and a 2.5mm jack. Just have to know a couple tricks to make it work.

[Mike Burgess]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Sony loaned me a V1 for about a year and while it was very good -- it was long and weighed too much. I could buy one from a friend who bought an EX1, but I don't think its what I really want.

The sizes of the FX1/7 were not that bad for me do to the fact that I liked their mass and what that meant in windy conditions on a tripod. Also, they were easier to hold steady when doing hand held work.

As for the SR11/12, it is almost too small for me, but I do like the PQ it produces (98% of the time), as well as the ease of retrieving the files.

Respectfully,
Mike

[Bruno Donnet]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Like you -- given inflation -- I would gladly pay $1800 for a camcorder as that about 1/3 the cost of the Z7. Why is that segment gone?

The GZ-HD7 is/was in fact the only camcorder in this segment... I was ready to buy this model last year, but was desappointed by the product itself.

The fact that the JVC GZ serie encodes on the HDD in Mpeg-2 instead of AVCHD is a great plus IMO, espacially regarding the 'fast motion blur' problem that is still worse in AVCHD than in Mpeg-2 or HDV (spite a great progress in the last models like the Sony SR serie).

When will a new and better incarnation of the GZ-HD7 occupy this missing segment --a GZ-HD8--?

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Bruno Donnet

When will a new and better incarnation of the GZ-HD7 occupy this missing segment --a GZ-HD8--?

Given the surprising "I don't need no damn manual control" attitude I've heard from some, perhaps we shouldn't expect any better from anybody. JVC is following the pack to $1000 mom&pop camcorders. It's hard to go a different way when your are #4.

However, JVC have only themselves to blame. If you are going to aim at the $1800 market you better get OIS right. IMHO, image quality is high -- they just calibrated it to give super saturated colors with too much red push. Something that would be very simple to fix.

I've been testing the SR -- and it too suffers from skin tones that are too saturated (to be real) and with a bit too much red push. That's why Panasonic recalibrated their consumer camcorder for the "pro" group.

PS: I think I'll just buy a Scarlet. http://video.thedvshow.com/item/P1FHPW4J8X4J4FMX

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Given the surprising "I don't need no damn manual control" attitude I've heard from some, perhaps we shouldn't expect any better from anybody.

Steve, I don't think anyone is saying that. I have said several times that I would appreciate more manual controls. However (and this is a big however), given the choice between a camcorder that takes inherently better video and has slightly less manual controls (but more in certain other area such as bias controls) and another camcorder that no matter how I use the manual controls, it can't equal that of the one with less controls, I'll take the one that produces better video...in a heartbeat.

An examply of what I was talking about with a camera being used 'spur of the moment' like these cams tend to be used, occurrred this weekend. My wife and I were at a one year old birthday party. There were a number of 'spur of the moment' shots, as always happens with kids, that would simply have been missed had I been messing with shutter speeds and aperture controls. But having my exposure bias always instantly available via the front mounted dial, I had instant access to expsoure if I needed it. Most of the time the SR12 got it right anyway with no intervention needed.

So am I saying that I don't want more manual control? No. But I'll still always take the cam that produces better video regardless and doesn't need both manual intervention as well as post processing to 'try' to duplicate what another cam can do in full auto. The best of both worlds is having the cam that produces the best video and has the most manual controls. This is what others are saying too.

The JVC, with all its manual controls, fails because it's always tended to lag both Sony and Canon in the area of picture quality. All the manual controls in the world can not make up for failings in basic camera design.

[James Duffy]

I haven't read the entire thread, so I don't know if this has been discussed, but I think price is a very important consideration here. B&H has the HF100 for $630 and the SR12 for $1400. I think the fact that the Canon is being compared side-by-side to a camcorder that's more than twice as expensive is testament to its quality. Hell, I would hope that a camera that costs almost a thousand dollars more produces a better picture, otherwise the manufacturer has done something seriously wrong.

However, if the Canon produces an image that's almost as good as the Sony, I think it makes sense to buy the HF100, two 16gig cards, a wide-angle adapter, the DM-100 microphone, and a couple spare batteries off ebay, and still have saved a couple hundred bucks as compared to the SR12. That's just me, though. I don't see what the SR12 offers that justifies the massive price gap, so I'm definitely leaning toward buying the Canon.

[Ken Ross]

There are features that the SR11/12 has that helps to justify the price disaprity if they're important to you (don't forget the SR11 is cheaper than the SR12 price you quoted and the SR12 can be had for less than your quoted price too):

* Both hard drive and memory card recording for substanitally longer recording time
* Viewfinder for those that want to clearly see in very bright conditions
* Larger and higher resolution LCD
* 5.1 recording capability
* Zebra stipes
* Better auto recording capability

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by James Duffy

I think the fact that the Canon is being compared side-by-side to a camcorder that's more than twice as expensive is testament to its quality. Hell, I would hope that a camera that costs almost a thousand dollars more produces a better picture, otherwise the manufacturer has done something seriously wrong.

That's why earlier I said the HF vs SR comparison was Apples and Oranges. The SR should have been compared to the HG. So, I'm now looking at AVCHD camcorders from a different perspective: HDD vs SD card.

I have an HDD based camcorder and appreciate its virtues. But, I know full well that a year from now from consumer to pro camcorders will be based upon generic SD cards because AVCHD really makes the most sense for cards. (If you design a camcorder with an HDD, MPEG-2 makes far more sense. Why deal with AVCHD if you have 120GBs of recording space?)

So now I'm working with the SR as a "very popular HDD camcorder."

When can you trust Auto and when can't you? And, how can you best use it's touchscreen menu in those situations where it's little computer fails to figure-out the best solution? Especially when you can't SEE the menu choices clearly on the LCD and the camera won't show you the menu on the VF.

Bottom-line -- how can one get the best from an SR if that's the camera one owns.

PS: I'm also going to do a quick HD7 vs SR comparison test. The Sony should "win" but by how much will be interesting. My HD7 nearly matched an FX7 and beat a Z1.