C100: Great Images - Impressive Audio Too?
 

Nice sunny afternoon here in England and I finally found an hour to take a break from editing a corporate film. So I took my new C100 walkabout around town with a Canon 70-200mm F4 IS on (as its such a sharp lens) to get some long shots/see what this baby can do and especially to see how much usable audio I could get with just the C100, it's top handle and grip.

To my surprise I found that I could use the EVF for focussing too (with peaking 2 on/using magnify). Generally the ergonomics for run and gun are superb - but I already knew that - so much better than my 7D and getting close to the usability of my EX3.

Just had a quick look at the clips and as well as truly stunningly sharp, stable and usable images (which I was fully expecting) I'm amazed at just how good the audio is from the handle's in-built stereo mics. They picked up remarkably little of the IS noise from this lens (the noisiest one I have). Sure, in a very quiet room I know they will pick up the IS noise but outside it was no problem. At one point I got a bit of wind noise with the breeze, but otherwise pretty damn good.

I've read somewhere that the audio pre-amps in the C100 are remarkably good too, very clean when using external XLR mics - but I stress that I've yet to confirm that myself.

Anyone got any comments specifically about C100 audio to share?

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

This is great news - I'm on the cusp of moving from FS100 to C100 due to ergonomics, C-Log, EOS lenses, timelapse and on and on... but your Audio report is even more of a boon.

I need to do this test again with the C100:


Whilst not as bad as the EX1 mic pre-amps, the FS100's were acceptable but not up to your sound guy's SQN or 702 - of course it shouldn't be at its price point, but a lot of us are One Man Bands shoving a lav on someone's lapel as there's nobody to point a 416 (with its nice hot output) at the interviewee's orifice and therefore we ask a lot of the internal mic pre-amps.

Glad you like the 70-200 IS. It's looking like the ultimate R&G/Event glass cabinet is Tokina 11-16, 17-55 2.8 IS, 24-105 f4 IS and now the 70-200 IS (with the 50mm 1.4 of choice to hand too).

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

I recorded some audio with my sennheiser wireless and a tram TR50 yesterday to check things out. I am no audio pro...but I heard very little noise. Sounded great. One question I have is if there might be some way to use a mixer (sound devices?) bypass the handle audio and go right into the connection on the camera. I think in theory this would work? Someone would have to make the cable. I tried searching to see if anyone had done this with a c300 but didn't see anything. I'm just assuming that audio would be even better with a good mixer and would keep away camera movement during interviews, etc. one other question...does the handle on your c100's wobble a bit side to side? Mine does...annoys me a bit.

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

Very slight wobble on my top handle too with the locking knob done up tight. This is my second C100 - the first one had no wobble at all. Only about a mm at most and not what I would call loose. I think I have a simple non-destructive idea that might eliminate this wobble - but need to try it out first.

The first C100 that I had suffered from a very stiff/often difficult and non responsive joystick by comparison to this one. That one would often fail to recognise upward selections unless pressed really hard.

Funny thing is that I rejected that one for another reason (stuck sensor pixel) and thought it was just me needing to get used to the joystick as an aside! However, since this one has a lovely, so easy to use joystick, I now realise that the other one was inferior by comparison.

I can live with a slight handle wobble, not with a permanently stuck pixel! The lovely joystick is an unexpected bonus!

Regarding stuck pixels, in case anyone thinks they might have one, read the manual section about doing an Automatic Black Balance (ABB in the menu) as that may well cure them. If not, talk to your dealer and it might have to go back to Canon.

Back on C100 audio, I just want to stress that I have not had time yet to really evaluate how good the handle mics are - I would be surprised if built in mics on any camera were good enough for serious use. However, my first impressions are that the handle mics are much better than I imagined they would be!

Regarding how clean the C100s pre-amps are, if Matt could do one of his excellent tests, like the above that would be great...

Until we know more about the C100s audio performance I have slightly revised this threads title. EDIT: I now see the title change does not seem to have "stuck", ah well, I tried!

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

Andy T
It is still a bit early on Sunday morning so I may have misunderstood your posting.
Wouldn't it be easier to plug the mixer into one of the xlr sockets on the handle? This will give you a line feed into the camera.
BTW my handle wobbles too!

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

That's a good bag load of lenses.

I would also really recommend the very new Canon EF-S 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 STM IS lens.

I have read that that a continuous focus function will be added to the C100 next year and this is one of the lenses that this will work with.

It is a very sharp lens with a useful focal range for working in a documentary style situation.

And with the C100s one button ability to adjust the iris this lens could be a very useful addition.

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

Has anyone tried the EF-S 18-135mm mentioned by Mark? Great range (27-200mm, 35mm equivalent no?). Just the lack of fixed aperature.

Wondering how it stacks up to 17-55 f2.8 and 24-105 f4 in terms of sharpness, build quality, etc

Saving up for the C100, but I'll have to invest in glass, as I only have an old EF 50mm. Other lenses are m4/3 (shame as I really like the Panasonic 12-35mm f2.8).

If you guys could only have one lens for doc/news feature work (muchof which is handheld), which would it be?

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

Not tried the 18-135mm, but 'lack of fixed aperture' not necessarily an issue if you can work at the restricted aperture and beyond. As I'm adding a C100 to my NEX-FS100, which has a similar lens (18-200 f3.5-6.3), I did a test whereby I compared similar shot compositions from an EX1 and the FS100, and at f8 (!!), the big sensor camera had slightly larger bokeh than the EX (half inch chip) at f2.8, so smaller apertures aren't something to be scared of.


One lens? Tricky - I'll vote for the 24-105 even though I haven't got it yet. I've been using the 17-55 f2.8 as a standard lens, but about to get the 24-105 f4 IS - it's that extra reach and IS which tipped me over the 28-70 2.8 - I'll trade a stop for the longer reach and IS on something like a C100, just so long as I've got the 17-55 to fall back on.

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

OK since were on lenses still, not audio,..I agree with Matt. IS is a must have feature for the way I typically work (for all but wide angles) with lots of hand-held shots.

I think I've got most bases covered with my Canon 10-22mm EF-S, Canon 17-55mm F2.8 IS EF-S, Canon 70-200mm F4 IS L (which I much prefer over the original F2.8 version as I find that far too heavy for extended handheld use - it's razor sharp too), Canon 100mm Macro F2.8 HIS L (lovely images!), Canon 1.4x Extender and a load of old fast Olympus OM-Zuiko glass of moderate quality from about 20 years ago (which I can use via cheap adapters). Been using these lenses the last 2 years on my 7D and love them.

If I buy another lens it might be the Canon 24-105mm F4 IS L - but there is no rush for that as I've overlapped coverage already, it would just be for the L build quality. More likely I'll see what the new STM IS lens is like when I eventually get a chance to try one out at a Canon event.

Right now, if I could have only one lens for the C100 for hand-held/docu work, it would definitely have to be the Canon 17-55mm F2.8 IS. The IS on mine is very quiet and effective too. Images are excellent, very sharp. The build quality is so so, adequate, but only just. Range is terrifically useful, just occasionally I'd like longer reach. Others would favour the 24-105, but then there will be times in small rooms where you can't go wide enough - of course!

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

Sounds like its down to the 17-55 2.8 IS or the 24-105 f4 ... or possibly the new 18-135 (though reviews with the C100 or C300 look few and far between). How to decide ....

I find I often shoot wide with my GH2 (say around 30mm - 35mm equivalent).

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

Your point is a good one...I was just thinking outloud about eliminating the handle. Not sure if what I was thinking about is even possible.

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

Interested to hear more about this :)

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

I could be wrong on this (in fact, it's highly likely), but I believe the Stereo Minijack audio input on the C100 body basically gives you the same audio as the mic jack on a 5D Mark III. I've got a Sound Devices MixPre-D, and I can feed a mic-level signal via the TA3 connector to the C100. That would allow level control on the mixer, while being able to feed XLR mics into the mixer.

I'm not saying I'd do this, because generally when I'm in a scenario to use a mixer, I'd have no issue bringing the handle, but I'm pretty sure one could do this.

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

Hi Andy T. Regarding that Handle play I had 2 immediate ideas.

One is to put 2 narrow strips of tape on the underside of the C100 Handle's "foot" (either side of where the thumb screw hole comes through) and see if that reduced clearances enough to take out any tendency to move slightly. It's a bit like what I did on this thread (see post 87 on this link - which should take you direct to page 6). That was on my little TM900s shoe attachment, which in that case removed an annoying rattle - the last thing you need with an attachment designed to hold a microphone!!!

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/panasoni...-thread-6.html

However, my engineering background tells me that this tape idea probably won't work with this C100 thing as the force is a torsional (twisting) force. So the other idea I had was to use one or two strips of black modeller's 'Plasticard micro strips' and lightly superglue them in one or both sides of the C100s shoe, i.e. inside the folded over metal lugs, the bits that stop the Handle from lifting up.

That would effectively narrow the slot width by a tiny amount when the shoe is slid in and so reduce any torsional play. If that worked then I might replace them with metal strip or wire as a more robust solution.

In plain English, it's as if the shoe on the C100's top is slightly too wide (or the foot on the bottom of the C100's Handle is slightly too narrow).

I'd need to check that other things I have with shoes on fit OK into the C100 top shoe first. I know some items I have from various manufacturers have varying shoe width dimensions (sometimes by more than a mm!). I've had to file down some "feet" before!

In truth, this very slight play does not bother me as I know it's on very secure regardless. As long as it does not loosen and develop into rattle over time it's TOTALLY a non-issue - so I suspect I'll just leave it as it is, especially since I'm up to my neck with editing deadlines right now. Everyone want's their films before Xmas!

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

On a semi-unrelated note, I got to play with the c100 and c300 last week, and my biggest qualm on the 100 is that the EVF sucks... I found it hard to compose with, nevermind judge focus. Seems a SmallHD or similar would be required on it.

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

I'm wondering
Is there anybody out there that can compare the XF300 with the C100?
Wonder how this two compare in quality.

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

Turn your head sideways, rest the camera against your face, and then the EVF is not so bad, try using it as an ENG EVF and it is horrible.

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

just rendered out a little review video, the first thing i've actually done with the c100, and since this thread was on my mind i opted to try the onboard mic instead of my usual lav. so here's how it sounds in a fairly quiet room at about 2-2.5' away from the subject(me)

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

Sounds relatively good! What's up with the compression stuff going on in the background on the left?

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

well, grading avchd, compressing to 264, going through vimeo's compression, etc...

the original file doesn't look nearly that blockly, though there is some compression artifcating. don't know when i'll get a hold of a ninja but review videos like this i don't see the need to use anything more than the internal codec

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

here's another review i just finished, this time using my regular wireless lav. plugged into the xlr as mic level.

really damn clean, nice quality through there. this audio is boosted in post by 9db(i haven't bothered to figure out how to view mic levels on the camera yet...)

anyone used to dslr audio will definitely be pleased by this camera's preamps.

hope this doesn't seem like i'm plugging my videos... i don't shoot tests, i test by shooting things that need shooting.

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

After checking something again in the manual I have edited this post to remove information that might confuse people!

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

True - but even Atomos will state that the benefits of an external recorder are more about the ROBUSTNESS of the codec, and the benefits of an instantly editable one, rather than obvious improvements in picture quality.

For most corporate stuff, where there's only three generations, internal codec will be absolutely fine - NLEs including FCS and FCPX will automatically move any rushes that are 'treated' in any way to a 10 bit edit friendly codec.

It's only when your material is destined for broadcast, with its multiple copies and extra generations (can be 10, 11 generations away from rushes to final viewer), when the extra data in 4:2:2 comes into play. Or when your image will be writ large upon a projected screen and you happen to be in the front row.

Here's some tests I did with my FS100, which I've since recreated with the C100 with very similar results:

4:2:2 vs 4:2:0

I was shooting chromakey tests yesterday, and I had more issues with the FCPX keyer than I had with the difference between 4:2:2 and 4:2:0 (it's a hybrid keyer), Over in AE with keylight, much better key, from both sources.

As I'm doing keyed interviews next week, the recorder will come along mainly for audio quality (it's a Pix by Sound Devices after all), backup on internal codec (yet to test/trust the dual record of the C100) and best of all, the 'marker' function (both Ninja and Pix do this). Add 'essence' markers to video in real time to identify 'the good bits'.

Oh, and another thing, external recorder's rushes better if you're doing smoke, dust, high action and sport, but only if using ProRes HQ over ordinary ProRes, where the difference was moot.

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

I am running audio tests. I report on preliminary findings. I ran a Sennheiser MKH40 directly into the C100 and in a second test into a Sound Devices Mixpre D with line out into the C100 XLR. The difference was dramatic, The background noise, rumble, whatever you what to call it, disappeared with the Mixpre D. It was not even a subtle difference. Now have to see if a dual sound system is even better, but the sound with the MixPre line out into the C100 set to line in with a level near 10 was very good. So good that I would have accepted it with a dual sound system, but we will have to see how it finally compares. The best is always around the next corner.

One important caution. I am writing this from the field. Listening only through headphones attached to the C100. I need to transfer it to a more critical environment before making a final judgment.

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

Phillip, that seems odd. or perhaps you're using far higher end playback than i. i assume you were running the mkh40 into xlr?

i did another video, this time using the same wireless lav, but plugged into the 3.5mm port instead of XLR. didn't change any settings, and the different in tonal quality is vastly different. i'll have to go in and see what settings there might be to cause this, or different preamps for the xlr vs 3.5mm

so as a recap, my first video post was internal mic, second was sennheiser wireless lav to XLR mic level, and this is the same mic, to 3.5mm port

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

I have and use Sennheiser wireless lavs but they really cut the sound quality, and mask any problems further down the sound chain. The Sennheiser MKH40 is acknowledged as one of the absolute best cardiod mics. Most video people do not realize the value of good sound for audience acceptance, and suspension of disbelief. I was talking to a juror at Sundance and was told that Sundance rejects the majority of films simPly becuase of poor sound quality. Unless they are high end, and I can't afford the best, wireless systems simply introduce noise and distortion. You can minimize the damage by using after market lacs, like Sanken Co11 (the best), Countryman B3/6, and Tram. When I am doing critical work I use XLR wired COS11 lavs. The difference is huge. So, for the work I do I must do test with equipment that gives the best sound,and only then can I judge each element in the recording chain.

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

It was quite some time after I first started filming that I realised you don't need to use wireless radio mics for static interviews.
You can run an XLR cable from the mic into the camera. Which is a better solution.
I just mention this in case anyone else has overlooked the obvious. Because it often is not apparent when reading forums.

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

Depends on which mic you have available.

Also, i shy away from ever having anyone other than myself hardwired to the camera. takes all of 2 seconds for me to look away and for them to want to stand up for a glass of water or something for the camera to take a tumble.

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

Just to play Devil's Advocate for fun, a wireless setup can also help if you're micing up in an environment with lots of mobile phones in use - running via XLR is undoubtedly the best way quality wise, but it can pick up the 'der-dit-dit' of a cell phone trying to find a tower. A wireless lav doesn't get this (but can get 'splats' from competing systems and other energy sources).

A long while ago,I bought the Sennheiser G2 kit with transmitter, receiver and 'butt-plug' (not my choice of name but everyone seems to call them that - a dongle that's a phantom powering XLR on one end, TX on the other) - thus allowing the use of a COS-11 lav, CS-1 shotgun or even just a sound feed from a desk to go straight into the camera with no fear of phone interference (let alone Health and Safety and convenience).

It's nice to have the option to run wireless if you need to, but stick to wired when you can.

Really must do the Mic Pre demo again with the C100.

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

Of course I meant XLR WIRED lavs in my post as giving the best quality. Sorry for the typo, and my dyslexia? Corrected post to read properly.

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

The 3.5mm version sure sounds as if trimming the receiver's audio output down would help. Hard to be sure, but it sounds like the camera input is overloaded, constantly on the verge of nasty overmodulation.

Is it possible that the 3.5mm version video had some autogain setting enabled on the camera? I'm hearing the dialog almost overmodulated, followed by pumping aka breathing that might occur with some sort of dynamics processing like autogain, limiter, or compressor enabled.

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

you're probably right. can check on it at some point later on

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

you know what, i just checked and it does look like a solid case of user error. prior to doing that video i was seeing if any laptop mics would work and i was jacking up the levels, and the mic Attenuation was on, so that would make perfect sense the dynamics of that audio. will do my next video with proper levels.

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

Okay, so I re-ran my 'One hen, two ducks' test today, recording onto the C100 straight, onto my PIX220 with its wonderful mic pre-amps, and direct into the Roland UA-25 USB Audio interface, and measured everything up in Adobe Audition CS6. I haven't touched the 3.5mm jack yet.

Immediate conclusion is that, yes, the mic pre-amps in the C100 are very good. Better than the FS100 to my ears, and close to the PIX220 (though lacking that last bit of oomph on the lower frequencies).

I tried my Neumann TLM103, which belts out such a signal we're not really testing mic-pres, but provides a rich tonality. That was fine in comparison to the Pix and UA-25. Next I tried the COS-11, which has a far lower level. Again, no haunting discrepancies between the C100 and the PIX220/UA-25 - a little thinner, a little extra noise, but nothing like the difference between the PIX and the FS100.

I tried the limiter and wound up levels to give it a workout. It wasn't quite as natural or as unburstable as the Pix, but as always, it's a rubber sheet in case of accidents. You don't really want it there, but if there's a chance it might be needed...

I'd post up the movie or make the sound tests available for download, but really - it would be a very boring movie. Just a voice droning on about Macedonian oysters on rollerskates over and over again.

So, well done Canon.

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

Excellent info about the C100 pre-amps being pretty damn good - this confirms my intial impressions too, with a much shorter/less impressive XLR mic/gear list. I think much better than the audio pre-amps on my Sony EX3 :-)

Thanks Matt!

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

another sample, this one was rec'd with a mk66

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

All of these tests merely show that the C100 audio is better than DSLR audio, but then none of them are a direct A-B test with the incredible results you get using an external mixer. try it and be amazed. While the C100 is good it really shines when used with a mixer. All of my work that is not run and gun is now done through a Mixpre D. You have listen with good headphones, but even through in camera playback you will hear a difference.

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

i don't quite see the point of that, phillip...

either you have the ability to have a mixer on set or you don't, i don't think anyone is suggesting that any camera's built in mini dials or other functions are better than a proper mixer's.

the only point to this thread or any thread discussing built in anything audio related is whether it works well as a standalone, not as a replacement for any external recorder and/or mixer which usually and should come with their own operator.

Internal sound is useful for run and gun, 1 man operator, or any other situation that simply does not merit extra devices. it's practically always implied that if the situation and budget merit it, you're going to have external audio of some kind.

the consensus it would seem is that the c100/300's internal audio is as good and possibly better than most any other high end camera's built in audio, and that's all you can really take away from this, because no one is going to tell you that any camera's built in audio trumps a proper external mixer/recorder/audioguy

so my point is that you're right, but it isn't really relevant :)

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

Philip, I am with you on this - right up until the point I reached this morning, where I shoved a COS-11 and a TLM-103 up the audio-hole of my C100.

https://soundcloud.com/mdmatv/one-he...00-tlm103-into

So this shows how, given a nice strong signal (like the use of the Sound Devices preamp), the Canon takes it as read and is uncoloured. Unlike the use of a pre-amp, note that both mic recordings are uncoloured, so the Mic input is fairly neutral.

Now lets get tougher with a real-world microphone - the COS-11.

https://soundcloud.com/mdmatv/cos-11-tests-mixdown

I warned you! It's not the most exciting listen. Just to say that, unlike the FS100, the C100 can do decent audio given a nice mic at a good level.

https://soundcloud.com/mdmatv/one-hen-one-c100-final

Re: C100: Impressive Audio!
 

What I ahve not made sufficiently clear is that the Mixpre D can be mounted below the C100 and then you also replace the handle with a XLR to 3.5mm input direct to the stripped C100 body. Very compact, not much more in weight and much better sound. And I can have WFM and audio VU at same time. This is not a separate mixer but an attached mixer extension.