Hi all, I rarely post, but I figure I should share what I've been told. I've been researching the 5D a lot lately, and am eagerly awaiting the 24p firmware (I shoot stills and video). I've been hesitant to drop the money on one until the firmware comes out, just in case it ends up not happening, but now I'm sure enough it will.

I was out at CES over the weekend, and on Saturday I went to the Canon booth and asked one of the reps who called himself a "junior tech" or something to that effect (he's new, basically) what was up with the 24p update, and is it actually happening? He said it's 99% likely that it will come out and that a guest at CES had brought him a new 5DmkII that had already had the firmware from the factory, and he claimed (not me, I didn't even ask about this) that it had 720p60 as well. He said that Canon would release the firmware in new cameras from the factory before it was made available online, which he claimed should happen soon. Not a lot of specifics beyond that. I asked if he was sure it was a 5DmkII and not a 7D that he saw (since he seemed green), and he said he was sure it was a 5DmkII.

Naturally since he's new I want confirmation, so I went back and asked someone else on Sunday. This guy (I got his card, it's not with me at the moment, I didn't ask if he wanted me giving his name out - so I won't, wasn't thinking about posting here at the time) claimed his specialty was both the video cameras and the stills with video. We talked about the limitations of the HDV format as well as the audio and other limitations of shooting on the 5D. Anyway, he said that the 24p update was going to be coming out, he claimed he didn't know many details about it like release date or anything, though. He doubted that it would enable Audio Gain Control, and reccommended a mixer and just getting scratch audio off the 5D. Oddly enough I overheard him talking to another rep that another guest with a lot of questions should check out DV Info to get an understanding of the benefits and limitations of the 5D for video. So props to you all.

Last week I called Canon USA to ask about the same thing, they told me they couldn't say anything because they didn't know, though that they were probably not out of line with what I had heard from the UK and Australian press releases.

The reps were pretty open with me, I didn't press them for any answers, I just asked casually. I didn't present myself as press although I had a badge, but as an interested potential customer, which is the case.

I appreciate you all as an info source for helping me make this decision, and I just thought you all should hear this. I can't vouch for the validity of any of this, but everything I wrote is how it happened, and I hope to pay you back by contributing what I can.

That's great info Elliot,

I notice at ParkCameras (UK) that the 5DMk2 now lists bare and kit versions "Available whilst stock lasts". Does this mean they are awaiting new models with built in updated firmware I wonder.

Still waiting on the firmware, too. I have had the chance to play with the video capabilities of my new 5D and I am remarkably impressed. The small form factor and the ability to get it into tight spaces makes for a great kit especially for my needs.

I'm currently working on building a rig that will be modular so that I can shoot on a tripod, shoulder mounted or suction mounted. Now all I need is the firmware to make this my number one cam =)

I'm seriously fed up with waiting for this update, having almost driven myself insane doing the 30 - 25 frame rate conversion in Compressor more times than i care to remember.
16 hours for an 8 minutes film. In fact i've considered trading it in for a 7d.

A Canon rep at a trade show in London before Xmas told me to expect it "at the end of January", while another one was less committal, with the official Canon announcement of "first half of 2010".

Let's hope the first guy proves to be right.

I'm with you, I'm ready for it to come out. My impression is that it's right around the corner, which is enough for me to justify ordering it, which I just did (expecting it tomorrow!), though with some apprehension.
Based on what I heard, I'd guess it should be out around the same timeframe, i.e. within the next month or so (unless something goes wrong in testing). I have little doubt that it is coming. I considered the 7D, but I saw a stills comparison and the 5D is noticeably better, at least as far as noise, but other IQ reasons too. Plus I've wanted a full frame still camera for a years, enough to put off buying a DSLR, and if I waited this long I may as well get what I've been waiting for. It's too bad wide motion picture lenses won't fit, que sera sera.

I'm kind of wondering what other tweaks may be involved in addition to 24p. Zebra bars? Reduction in Moire pattern issues? Who knows?

Not only am I oh-so-very-much looking forward to the 24p thing (and hopefully 720/60p), but if they could reduce the moire, I'd pretty much have to marry the camera.

I just edited a bit last night were a woman's wool dress and nylons moire'd so badly, I couldn't use the shot. Ended up using an alternative where the camera was at a different distance and only they nylons "danced" for a moment or two.

I'm not a pixel counter, but still, sometimes it drives ya nuts.

I reckon they'll have to release it before NAB (this April), otherwise they'll get flogged on the show floor.

Me too. I don't think they'll address the DSLR moire issues any time in the next few years, but I've got my hopes up for 2014.

I am curious if you guys have done any testing with combinations of a low sharpness setting in your cameras, coupled with a conversion to cineform, and reintroduction of sharpness after the conversion. Does that help with moire or aliasing reduction ?

Agreed. A few of us asked about the new firmware at CES, but at NAB it would look like feeding time in the piranha tank!

Overall, Canon has been pretty smart about the 5D2 firmware - releasing just enough to get what they need. Manual firmware made Canon lenses - and IS - valuable for video. The 24/25p announcement kept the 5D2 strong through the holiday sales season. The price drop helps post-Christmas sales. Now, Canon needs to follow up on the 24/25p promise.

I'm hopeful that the new firmware will match the features of the 7D/1D4, namely that we will get 1080/23.976, 1080/25, 1080/29.97, 720/50, and 720/59.97 as well as HD out during recording to help with manual focusing. Why would they do that? Simply to put the firmware to bed. As long as the 5D2 is lacking compared to its sisters, Canon will hear nagging and discontent. Make the three cameras the same, and Canon has a strong lineup with consistent advantages and disadvantages. Canon can easily say that any new features won't be introduced until the next generation of products.

Fingers crossed for 720p and HD out during recording. And, yes, it should be in our hands before April.

HD Out! Yes! I forgot about that. If the camera had that and defeated AGC, well, what comes after marriage...? Hmm... Never mind. That's just gross.

Chris B, No I haven't tried dropping the Sharpness yet. I am, however, editing in Cineform.
This project was shot last Sept, as I recall. Anyway, it was before the mighty "Manual Controls Firmware Update." And it was my second shoot with the camera to boot. So my shots are all different exposures and settings. Fortunately I had learned enough to be JUST barely clever enough to know how to fake lock the ISO.

So that will be my next test, dropping down the contrast and Sharpness to see what happens - but that's for another thread.

Any word from Canon?
 

Just curious if anyone has heard anything on the alleged firmware update to allow selectable frame rates?

I check the Canon website every day, but was also curious if anyone has heard anything from the other web sites or contacts they have?

Canon... if you're reading, please release the firmware update !!!!!

I had two conversations with Canon USA last week. One with tech support and another in sales/marketing at Canon USA headquarters.

Both told me similar answers when I asked them about frame rates. The updated 5D firmware regarding frame rates will match the 7d ie, be the same.

Both also said something on the order that that was their understanding, not the official word until it comes out.

Nice!

If we can get HD from HDMI while recording too we'll be set.

My response from Canon
 

"Thank you for your inquiry about recording 24p video with your 5D Mark
II. We value you as a Canon customer and appreciate the opportunity to
assist you.

At this moment there is no information available regarding any future
firmware updates for the 5D Mark II. We recommend you check our website
(EOS (SLR) Camera Systems - EOS Digital SLR Cameras - EOS 35mm SLR Cameras - Lenses - Flashes - Canon USA Consumer Products) from time to time to learn of new firmware
announcements.

We hope this information is helpful to you. Please let us know if we
can be of any further assistance with your 5D Mark II."

Not sure what this proves, maybe just the fact that Canon support is not connected with any development.

Just proves again that the standard answer to that standard question is all anyone will get until it is actually released or an additional formal press release is issued. Standard business practice.

Meanwhile, I guarantee you they are losing (lots) of potential 5D2 sales to 7Ds. At some point, you'd think they'd step in and stop that bleeding -- I personally know of several of these situations, and those folks are now perfectly happy with their choices, they won't be switching once the firmware comes out, but they would have bought a 5D2 if it had 24p/60p.

I'm happy they announced, so at least we know it's coming, but the longer the wait, the more frustrated many of us get.

Add me to the list
 

If for nothing else than 29.97.... Less to transcode in compressor and less to deal with with audio syncing issues.

I would like to play with 24p as well. I have heard and read that is should be soon.

Please let it rip Canon!!!

You're right Bill......Canon what's up? Why put off until tommorrow what you can do today.....come on baby...release release!

Eh? Canon aren't losing anything. Many people will run with both the 7D and the 5D. It makes perfect sense to delay.

I PERSONALLY know of two specific instances of people who got a 7D instead of a 5D2 because of the framerate issue, and those two people aren't looking back and aren't going to switch when the framerate firmware hits. That right there PROVES without ANY doubt that they are losing at least "something." Whether it's a big deal or not can be debated, and the folks that have both in all likelihood have both because they need two cameras anyway. Just saying... I personally know of two instances of $1,000 they could have had that they now don't.

I wouldn't think that's an issue for Canon as long as also the 7D is a Canon camera. Am I missing something?

-- peer

Normally, I'm pretty patient. I put up with no manual control and was thrilled when the 1.1.0 was announced and released. I was confident that 24p would come next. I was content when the firmware announcement arrived.

But as February approaches, I have to admit that I'm feeling more and more impatient. I'm not caring about Canon sales. I'd just like 24p (and 60p) already - before the 5D2 becomes yesterday's news.

The other day I watched one of my favorite movies again.... The Right Stuff. I am reminded of a line when Alan Sheperd had waited hours inside the capsule for countdown holds, and a eventually had to urinate in his space suit. Then more holds, and finally, he is quoted as saying something like, "Okay, enough of this crap, lets light this candle". They pushed the button, and off he went.

Its time Canon, lets light this candle !

I wouldn't suprise me if once they release the 5Dll 24p update then they announce a new cam right after that....thus making the 5Dll yesterday's news.

Yeah, they're missing $1,000 every time it happens.

I'm actually convinced this line of thinking on the lens front is what got us the first firmware fix with manual control (losing sales to other lens manufacturers), and I'll bet this line of thinking has something to do with getting the second update. You start adding up $1K per and I bet it could start becoming a non-trivial number at some point. If you can stop that hemorrhaging with a simple firmware update, you do it, it's a no-brainer.

They're probably still selling both cameras about as fast as they can make them, camera body sales undoubtedly drive far larger revenues in future lens sales than than the cost of the body, and the profit margins are probably roughly proportional to the prices. So I doubt that Canon budgeting is shaking in their shoes about this thread.

STILL, they are offering significant free firmware upgrades that were never promised at original release. No doubt the firmware will be released as soon as Canon is confident it is ready.

I'm looking forward to the firmware update, too. But I bought the 5DmII because I wanted a full frame DSLR, and am pleased to have the additional ability to shoot decent HD video clips with it. If I was buying today, I'd still buy a 5DmII. I'm in the original target demographic which remains the vast majority of the 5DmII's market. The vocal minority who think of it as a video camera first and a still camera second or not at all have had Canon's attention and are being accommodated.

If the lot of you ranting about the wait look back at this thread in a year, you'll be embarrassed at yourselves.

Also, you've got to admit that Canon is the only game in town in this market. The super-thin DOF options are the 5Dii and Panavision, and let's be honest, we don't have the budget to negotiate with Panavision.

If tomorrow, the XL-H1 develops some fatal flaw - I'm sure the Sony EX-1 or EX-3 will start selling like hotcakes, and Canon will rush to fix the error. But the 5D is the only game in town. Not to say we should be greatful for any bone Canon throws us, but we shouldn't be surprised when adding more features for free isn't at the top of their list.

I personally won't be embarrassed about anything. I bought the 5D2 for FF Stills, and I don't regret it one bit. It is an awesome camera. That has nothing to do with it. And I'm waiting just like everyone else, just voicing a little frustration, which is perfectly acceptable. And by the way, I bet you sell that much more more expensive L-glass to FF camera owners, so just another reason to stop the bleeding. And if you don't think the Canon bean counters watch that kind of thing, I think you're kidding yourself. There's a long-term strategy in here, I'm sure some of it has to do with the M-IV, and bandwidth of engineers, etc., but how these cams fit across the product spectrum in terms of positioning is an important thing to them no doubt. And, the fact is, you can order a 5D2 right now and get it shipped, so inventories cant be that tight are they?

One more thing actually, why do you think they announced it at all? Why do you think they are even going to put out the firmware? I mean why bother? They could have left it as is at this point, after the manual update?

I think it's worth noting that Canon has it's eye not just on short term profits but on building a long term camera line that is unified and professional. I don't think they like the 5D shooting 30.00 when the 7D and 1D are 23.98, 29.97 etc. It's much more than a money grab.

The answer seems obvious to me (though I don't have inside information.) Canon wanted to keep 5D2 sales strong through the holiday sales season. They didn't want people to bad mouth the 5D2 during that critical sales time.

So, why not just deliver it before Christmas? My gut feeling is that the decision to release 24/25p was made very late. Sure, there was proof-of-concept code, but no production-ready code. By the time the decision was made, they probably weren't confident that they could code and test the new firmware by Thanksgiving. And nobody wants a running change just before the engineers go home for Christmas and New Years.

We're all welcome to our opinions. I'm sure someone from Canon has read yours and read mine. And although they certainly do take customer feedback to heart as they shape their future product lines, my opinion is that all the handwringing in this thread is not going to change their firmware release date by one second.

This same "Canon is losing money" theme was repeated in http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-eo...7d-owners.html...I was going to move those cross-posts to this thread, but as deeply embedded in the conversation as they are, it's too much hassle. If there are publically available facts on Canon's financial situation that bear on the firmware's release, please put them in this thread.

FWIW, I disagree with a couple more of Bill's assumptions as well.

You don't need to drop thousands on new L glass to do DSLR video; there are a number of threads about finding economical glass for video. As I build my collection, it'll be primarily Canon L lenses, but that's to get the most out of the 21MP of still imagery. So I don't buy the L glass argument. Not that it matters, as none of us have any facts to base our assumptions of what works for Canon's balance sheets; the appropriate Canon offices obviously DO.

A camera being in stock at major vendors doesn't reflect, in and of itself, a whole bunch about sales volume or manufacturing capacity. The workings of any given supply chain has got to be as veiled to us consumers as the release schedule for firmware! Heck, the 5DmII still had spotty availability at big places like B&H last April when I just happened to browsing in my local Fry's and they had three in stock. I had already decided NOT to buy one at that time but there it was, so I went home with one. (Apologies to DVinfo sponsors!).

If the first half of 2010 passes without further word, then I'll join y'all in whining. Especially if it doesn't have 60p (which they haven't promised but I want!).
;-)

My feeling is that Canon will NOT offer a firmware upgrade afterall. Perhaps they spoke out before realizing the camera could not accomodate such an upgrade? Nevertheless, I have given up hope on ever getting those frame rates we want. Thanks, Canon. Thanks alot! (sigh)

It's only the end of January. They have five more months to keep their promise ("first half of 2010"). I suggest reserving your despair until after they've actually failed. Personally, I have no doubt that they will deliver it by the end of June.

This is also my assumption. And as Jon talked about earlier, I believe the announcement was rushed just so they could get a chunk of the Christmas shopping, but at that time weren't sure how much work was involved -- hence, giving themselves a buffer by the "first half of 2010" announcement. I'll be (happily) surprised if we see the software upgrade before May.

-- peer

I seriously doubt that the difference in profit for Canon between a 5D & a 7D is $1000. In fact I wouldn't be at all surprised if the profit on each unit sold were very similar.

They are absolutely committed to offering the firmware upgrade, and they will most definitely release it well within the announced time frame (that is, prior to 30 June 2010). You can count on it.

I can understand having that feeling, since we've been wanting 24/25p for a darn long time. Fortunately, it's just a feeling. There's no evidence whatsoever that Canon intends to break its promise.

And I would submit that there's no way that "they spoke out before realizing the camera could not accomodate such an upgrade?" They had a good year for a proof-of-concept test before they made the announcement. Such a commitment wouldn't be made willy-nilly.

I have been holding off purchasing the camera because of this update, but I know the date. It will be exactly one day past the time I have to return whatever it was I purchased. Not only that it will be called the 5D Mark IIs and it will have new whiz bang features that you are nobody if you don't have, and I won't. And as a final kick in the pants I won't be able to sell what I just bought for 50 cents on the dollar because nobody wants what you bought, they want the camera you don't have, just like you. And I now have to keep this camera until I save up enough money to buy the next camera which will also be one model short of having the features I really need.