Contacting Canon re: adding 24p pulldown flags - Part Duex

David Garvin · June 19th, 2007, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter J Alessandria

I am considering posting Mr. Ishizuka's email address here for people who want to send their own email on the issue. But I don't want it to be used to harass or disparage him or Canon. What do you guys think?

I think "no". I don't see anything good coming out of posting Mr I's email address publicly.

That being said, I've felt this letter writing campaign and cries of false advertising were way over the top since the very beginning, so feel free to take that into account.

But no, I don't see what would be accomplished by having people write to him directly. The camera functions exactly how they intended it and, for people who want to reverse the pulldown, there are plenty of options.

Chris Barcellos · June 19th, 2007, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter J Alessandria

For true 24 frame production, we recommend the Canon XH A1, XH G1, or XL H1.

This response clearly confirms that Canon in no way wants its little consumer wonder camera to compete with the professional level cameras they are selling for 4 times as much.

So you end up paying Cineform $250 to add the pull down they didn't want to add.

Chris Hurd · June 20th, 2007, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter J Alessandria

I am considering posting Mr. Ishizuka's email address here for people who want to send their own email on the issue.

No need to even consider it, because I wouldn't allow such thing here to begin with. DV Info Net operates on certain standards which make this place different from other message boards on the web. If the desire is to launch a crusade upon Mr. Ishizuka, that will have to be undertaken elsewhere on the Internet. I think David Garvin's post above has summed up the situation well, and we're probably at the end of the road for this thread. Thanks in advance,

Peter J Alessandria · June 20th, 2007, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

No need to even consider it, because I wouldn't allow such thing here to begin with. DV Info Net operates on certain standards which make this place different from other message boards on the web. If the desire is to launch a crusade upon Mr. Ishizuka, that will have to be undertaken elsewhere on the Internet. I think David Garvin's post above has summed up the situation well, and we're probably at the end of the road for this thread. Thanks in advance,

Well I hope my post made it clear I didn't want a crusade - just an opportunity for customers to express themselves in a respectful manner. I suspect he'd welcome that. Canon prides itself on such things.

Eugenia Loli-Queru · July 10th, 2007, 03:30 PM

I just called Canon about the pulldown flags. The guy told me that it's up to the application to "force" the pulldown, even if the flags are not there (which takes Vegas out of the picture because it won't do it if the flags are not there). I explained to them that the flags are missing and that other camcorders that support 24f do have the right flags, and he said that because this is a consumer class camcorder, there are NO planned updates to address this issue and he said that the pulldown is done correctly when playing back to TV, which is the main playback medium that Canon is interested in regarding the HV20 and 24f.

In other words, they won't fix it, and there is a good chance that future models will have the same limitation too.

Pete Bauer · July 10th, 2007, 06:13 PM

The HV20 does not record 24F like the XL H1 and XH cameras (in which 23.976 fps progressive frames are recorded to tape and no pulldown flags are needed). Rather, it records 24fps in a 60i 2:3 pulldown to tape.

However, the XL H1 and XH cameras do send pulldown 60i via SDI...I'm curious if anyone has confirmed whether or not there are pulldown flags in that stream? I don't know, but guess I'd be a little surprised if there are.

Thomas Barthle Jr. · July 11th, 2007, 08:08 AM

I'm just happy that there are all these options, other than waiting for Canon to make a change. Cineform, though it cost around $300, is THE BEST one step pulldown removal for the PC. $1099 + $299 = still cheaper than the H1, G1, A1! Plus, you can do so much more with it, like down convert to 720p or 480p, de-interlace your 1080p stuff, and for all those who are saving up for the Intensity card, can use this codec on HDMI capture.

The new FCS 2 has a new self-contained option through Compressor 3, no extra cost with Final Cut STUDIO. Even the free JES program is an excellent one step process for Final Cut Pro (if without Compressor).

As a result, the pulldown removal threads have become dead in the water to me. The software companies are making the adjustments. Although Canon did it dirty, this camera has been selling like a hotcake. They are in no hurry to spend resources on a product that is still in such high demand. Let them have it! I'll be busy making movies!

my $0.02

David Ridlen · July 25th, 2007, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Garvin

...
That being said, I've felt this letter writing campaign and cries of false advertising were way over the top since the very beginning, so feel free to take that into account.

But no, I don't see what would be accomplished by having people write to him directly. The camera functions exactly how they intended it and, for people who want to reverse the pulldown, there are plenty of options.

I think the claim of the HV20 being a 24p camcorder is indeed false advertising. It does not record 24p. And the 30fps video that the HV20 does record can not be correctly converted to 24p without residual interlacing every fourth frame, no matter what process you use. 'Interlaced' is not 'progressive.' The 4th frame problem is quite apparent to my eye during playback. And I was also hoping to be able to key elements I shot with the HV20. But they are ruined by this lingering 4th frame interlace.

Who would expect a "24p camcorder" to not record 24p, and to have no option for 24p playback? To me this is like claiming a TV is HD that doesnt actually come with an HD tuner. It is instead called 'HD ready' meaning it is capable of HD when you buy a separate tuner. Just like the HV20 is '24p ready' but you have to buy more stuff to actually get 24p out of the recording.

But before you tell me how I just dont know what I am talking about (for the thousandth time), please read here-
http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.ph...light=HV20+24p

Ian G. Thompson · July 26th, 2007, 10:01 AM

How do you remove pulldown?

After I remove pulldown I don't see any evidence of interlaced frames.

As I mentioned on your other post this is the same way the DVX implements its 24p footage (with the exception of flags). This method has been used for many years and the HV20 is no different.

July 10th, 2007, 06:13 PM	#36
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,101	The HV20 does not record 24F like the XL H1 and XH cameras (in which 23.976 fps progressive frames are recorded to tape and no pulldown flags are needed). Rather, it records 24fps in a 60i 2:3 pulldown to tape. However, the XL H1 and XH cameras do send pulldown 60i via SDI...I'm curious if anyone has confirmed whether or not there are pulldown flags in that stream? I don't know, but guess I'd be a little surprised if there are. __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

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July 10th, 2007, 03:30 PM	#35
Eugenia Loli-Queru Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Bay Area, CA, USA Posts: 348	I just called Canon about the pulldown flags. The guy told me that it's up to the application to "force" the pulldown, even if the flags are not there (which takes Vegas out of the picture because it won't do it if the flags are not there). I explained to them that the flags are missing and that other camcorders that support 24f do have the right flags, and he said that because this is a consumer class camcorder, there are NO planned updates to address this issue and he said that the pulldown is done correctly when playing back to TV, which is the main playback medium that Canon is interested in regarding the HV20 and 24f. In other words, they won't fix it, and there is a good chance that future models will have the same limitation too.

July 11th, 2007, 08:08 AM	#37
Thomas Barthle Jr. Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 86	I'm just happy that there are all these options, other than waiting for Canon to make a change. Cineform, though it cost around $300, is THE BEST one step pulldown removal for the PC. $1099 + $299 = still cheaper than the H1, G1, A1! Plus, you can do so much more with it, like down convert to 720p or 480p, de-interlace your 1080p stuff, and for all those who are saving up for the Intensity card, can use this codec on HDMI capture. The new FCS 2 has a new self-contained option through Compressor 3, no extra cost with Final Cut STUDIO. Even the free JES program is an excellent one step process for Final Cut Pro (if without Compressor). As a result, the pulldown removal threads have become dead in the water to me. The software companies are making the adjustments. Although Canon did it dirty, this camera has been selling like a hotcake. They are in no hurry to spend resources on a product that is still in such high demand. Let them have it! I'll be busy making movies! my $0.02

July 26th, 2007, 10:01 AM	#39
Ian G. Thompson Major Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Rockledge, Florida Posts: 351	How do you remove pulldown? After I remove pulldown I don't see any evidence of interlaced frames. As I mentioned on your other post this is the same way the DVX implements its 24p footage (with the exception of flags). This method has been used for many years and the HV20 is no different.