Canon XL2 24p Standard + Premeir Pro 1.5
 

Hi,

I did my first shoot with my XL2 in 16:9 24p standard, and editted in Premiere Pro 1.5. For the most part everything seems fine. I export the footage and it looks good. However, there is two short scenes that exhibit a strange behavior. They seem to flicker horizontally at a high rate. This only happens when I play it in windows media player. Watching the original footage captured from the Camera, also on media player, it looks fine. The problem happens when I export from Premiere. At first I thought I cut in the wrong place, so I tried several exports of this area, but they all exhibit the same flickering problem. The flickering problem is not normal. The aspect ratio seems to keep getting squished and extended horizontally at a high rate. This only happens for these particular scenes. So the clip runs fine, until it reaches this point, then for the next 3 seconds it flickers, then it continues fine.

Is there some setting I'm missing? From what I understand, after reading the rest of the posts, 24p standard just gets written in 60i using 2:3 pulldown. In post we can edit on 60i timeline normally.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
amir

This is a known bug in windows media player. It can't handle 24P material correctly and may be getting confused during the export. Have you tried playing the file in another media player, like Quicktime?

Other players
 

Paul,

Thanks for the reply. I have tried WinDVD and I have tried actually making a DVD out of the footage. In both cases the footage looked fine, although it looked a little too stuttery, I'm not sure if that's normal.

what confused me, is that when playing it in media player, it was fine for the most part, except for specific segments. I'm not so sure what's so special about these segements.

I will try it with quicktime player and see if it has the same problem.

I'm also wondering if premiere pro 1.5 has issues with dealing with 24P. I read something on their site, with regards to that, but it was not so clear.

thanks
amir

It has nothing to do with WMP... this is a terrible bug from Premiere that ONLY exists in PPro 1.5. It is the ONLY editor on planet earth (including Windows Movie Maker) that will handle DV but NOT 24p standard in a 29.97 timeline. It INCORRECTLY rebuilds the "C" frame thinking that it is 24P Advanced or 2:3:3:2. There is no fix, there is not workaround, you simple have to use another program. ANY other version of Premiere will work. LAME LAME LAME from Adobe... I make such a stink they gave me a free upgrade to 2.0 although I am using FCP more and more... here is an example of the "C" frame from footage that PPro 1.5 improperly interpreted as 2:3:3:2 24PA...

http://members.aol.com/ashvid/Cframe.jpg



ash =o)

Ash:

So, when we are using PPro 2.0 and shooting 24p Normal we should just edit and export in a normal DV NTSC 29.97 timeline right?

Yup, works fine in every DV editor besides PPro 1.5, works perfect in 2.0...and 1.0 for that matter.



ash =o)

Thanks Ash...it seemed to be working fine, but then again I am a little crazy. Seriously though, thanks for all your hard work responding on these forums, especially with a busy normal life.

That's good to know. I never witnessed that since I have always edited in PPro1.5 using 24p advanced. I figured that if just for kicks I ever want to film-out my stuff, there is nothing to change. The judder seems to be the same from 24p and 24pA anyway.

The Windows Media glitch is a real issue, even with 24pA. Some versions of WMP even have trouble keeping the damn 16:9 ratio intact during playback.

Other than this, is it worth going to PPro 2.0? Does PPro 2.0 handle the new XLH1 24f frame mode from Canon?

XL H1 & 24f
 

Hello Amir,
I just purchse Canon XL H1 and going to shoot a commercial, and I want to have a film look, I beleive I should use 24f SD 16:9.
Now when I import to Premiere Pro 1.5, could you please tell me, what preset I should use, and then if you can giude me, how should I export on DVD so thy can broadcast. I really get confused with the frame rates and pull downs, how do they acctually work, if you can please educate me with couple words, or just give me step by tsep instruction, what preset to use, after I capture, do I need to interpret footage? and how should I export to have the movie look, video..



Thank you in advance

The bug is always there, it is just particularly noticeable in areas of brightness or contrast and is vastly accentuated if you have a transition or cut happen in or out of one of the bogus "C" frames.

Premiere Pro 2.0 is a great product especially when paired with Raylight or AspectHD. It is definitely not without bugs/quirks though...


ash =o)

Presets/process I use
 

Thank you all for the input. I tried using PPro 2.0, and the problem went away.

Nerses,

I have the Canon XL2, so I'm not quite sure how similar it is to the XL H1. But I did shoot footage in 16:9 24p, and the footage does have the film motion look. In the XL2 I set the following presets to give it a look that I like, (note, this is just personal taste though)
- Pressd the blacks
- set the Gamma and color matrix to cine
- brough the pedestal down almost all the way
- I also used 1/48 shutter and kept the iris open 1.6

In Post with PPro 1.5, I just select a Widscreen project and just capture the footage I took from the Camera. With 24p standard the Camera captures in 24 frames/sec progressive, but then records on tape in 60i using the 2:3 pulldown. PPro automatically removes this pulldown.
The Pulldown is just a method that's used to convert 24 frames/sec progressive to 60 fields/second interlaced. 2:3 pulldown is good for film look if you're not going to film. the 2:3:3:2 pulldown is good if you plan to take your work to film. Below are a couple of links that explain these pulldowns in more details.

http://www.zerocut.com/tech/pulldown.html
http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/#24pRecording

Note, however, the problem that I ran into using PPro 1.5. When I exported some 24p footage, it exhibited strange behavior. You might run into this as well. With PPro 2.0 I didn't see this problem.

Once in your footage is imported in PPro, you can just edit normal, as you do with 60i.

To get the film look, you'll need to get the lighting right while you're shooting, and then play with color correction in post to get the final desired look for your commercial.

I haven't gotten to the point where I produce DVDs yet. But I have done it before with 60i footage, and as far as I know it should be the same process. You just export your footage in DV format, then use your DVD authoring program to make the DVD.

However, there might be other tricks with 24p DVDs that I'm not quite sure about. I have read some posts on the Canon XL2 Watchog board, that might be helpful. Here is a link to one

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=68206

Hope this helps and good luck with your commercial.

thanks
amir

thinking about 16x9 24p, but had some questions...
 

I just got an XL2 and am about to start a large outdoor project, and am going crazy trying to figure out what setting to shoot on. I'm thinking about 16X9 24p advanced, but I had some questions...

I've heard something about the way that 24p with normal pulldown is recorded. Is it true that there are particular points in the footage where transitions don't work as well, since certain frames are duplicated?

I want to shoot 24p advanced so I can work with true 24p footage. Is it true that a DVD player can recognize this and add pulldown on the fly?

And what if I need to add pulldown to this same footage manually so that I can make it available for TV? What I'm saying is can standard editing software take a true 24p timeline and convert it to a 2:3 pulldown format once the project is complete with all its bells and whistles?

you will need something like Final Cut Pro I think. If you don't have that use the normal 24p

Yes, this is absolutely true.

You can do this on your final render with your NLE. As already mentioned Final Cut Pro will handle all this, but so will Avid, Vegas, Premiere, or Edius. Pretty much any mature NLE you find can now handle both native 24P advanced and pulldown removal/insertion.

Bryan:

From what Barry Green says, shoot 24pA if you're going to DVD or filmout AND if you're going to be on a 24p editing timeline only. If you are going to be mixing footage, like interlaced and 24p on the same timeline for whatever reason (because you are using two different cameras), then shoot 24p and edit on a 30i timeline.

That's close, but not QUITE right.

Your final output is important, but for choosing which pulldown to use, the ONLY question to ask is if you're going to be editing in 24p. If you are, then always shoot 24pA. If you're not, then always shoot 24p standard.

Now, when should you edit in 24p? The simple answer is, if you CAN edit in 24p, always do it. (There's an exception that I'll handle separately below, but I don't want to confuse things now.) You will have the option of outputting any which way after you're done editing -- to tape, to Quicktime, to WMV, anything -- but always edit in 24p unless you can't.

So, that basically means, unless you CAN'T edit in 24p, always shoot 24pA.

Obviously, for certain things, like making 24p DVDs, you MUST edit in 24p or you just can't do it.

Most of the top prosumer-level NLEs handle 24p and pulldown removal in some way -- except for Avid Liquid (formerly Pinnacle Edition). In my opinion, the one which stands head and shoulders, by FAR, above the rest for 24p editing is Sony Vegas. It's 100% hassle-free 24p handling.

So, work with Vegas, or Premiere Pro, or Avid Xpress, or Final Cut Pro, and shoot 24pA.

Now, for exceptions (and echoing a bit of what Hugh said):

If you're mixing footage -- 24p and 60i -- and want to retain the look the 60i footage (for showing the difference between the two, for example), then yes, shoot 24p standard and edit in 60i -- otherwise, converting 60i to 24p will destroy the look of 60i and it will look more like 24p.

Or, if you're mixing it with 30p footage, edit in 60i, because 30p is horrible for conversion to 24p.

But those are the only two reasons not to edit in 24p if you can. And, to reiterate, if you're editing in 24p, always shoot 24pA.

24P and Audio Sync in Post
 

Hi,

I've been poking around 24p.com and seaching here and I don't see any clues about the problem I had last night..

I shot in 24p, and brought my footage into FCP and specified on the sequence 24fps (from 29.97). And my audio is pretty far out of sync. If I use 29.97, its totally in sync. The sequence shows a frequency for the audio of 48khz. I tried changing that to 44.1 and it was just out of sync in a different way.

Is there a workflow or tipsheet somewhere that can help with bringing 24p footage into a 24fps sequence and getting audio synced?

Should I post this on a FCP forum?

Thanks.

David

Did you shoot in 24P 2:3? or 24P 2:3:3:2?



ash =o)

It was
 

24p 2:3

David

Did you capture the footage in 2:3 as well?

Uh
 

Not sure I understand.. I said it was 24p 2:3 pulldown. If you are asking for aspect ratio, it was 16x9

FCP cannot edit 2:3 footage in a 24P timeline, you should edit it in a 29.97 timeline or use Cinema Tools to batch process your clips to remove the pulldown.




ash =o)

Try 30p on for size. It has smoother motion rendering than 24p and still retains a little of the old 24 frame motion blur magic. Plus you don't have to deal with pulldown. I'm kind of on the fence but it seems a little silly to shoot 24p/60i to tape-apply pulldown-edit 24p-author 24p DVD-DVD player reverses pulldown-watch at 60i? Imho the best thing about 24p is using 1/48th shutter when you're shooting in a club or at night. Good Luck.

If it ended up LOOKING like 60i after all that, you might have something there. But it doesn't.

When 2:3 pulldown is added for viewing on 60i display, it retains all of the 24p aesthetic.

Every movie you've ever watched on a standard TV employs pulldown. Surely you can see a worthy difference between 24 fps film/24p video and, say, a soap opera?

30p is fine; a lot of HGTV-type reality shows are shot with it. But it's not quite 24p.

Another 24P question
 

Hi There,

I'm using 24p standard while filming with my XL2 and wondering when I go to FCP whether to use progressive or interlaced. I put progressive and have been reading about it, but I'm not 100% sure at this point and don't want to blow it. I'm using 16:9 because I shoot at 16:9 and will output to TV and festivals. My timeline is 29.97 also. Sorry for a naive question, but I'm really not sure of the answer. Thanks again for any help out there!

Lucinda--

I'm not sure about FCP (I'm a Vegas guy), but you should be able to edit in progressive and then render to whatever your final output requires when the time comes.

I'm a bit confused though... You shot 24p and are editing on a 30p timeline? Forgive me if that's not what you're saying, but it sounds like it is. If so, that probably isn't going to work out. I'd suggest editing on a 24p timeline, since you should have more output options that way.

Hi Lucinda,

I use FCP and XL2. If you are shooting 16:9 and 24p standard, you need only select DV NTSC anamorphic for your capture preset. FCP will see the 24P and apply the proper pull down for a 29.97 timeline on ingest. So, your sequence setting would also be NTSC DV anamorphic at 29.97.

When your sequence is finished, export it however you like.

regards,

-gb-

Yes, Greg, that's what I did...those are my settings in FCP. Apparently I can use progressive or interlaced with these settings, but I was just wondering which would be best. Do you use progressive with these settings or interlaced? As I mentioned, I was confused by the 29.97 and wasn't sure whether to use interlaced or progressive. I got an email from Graeme Nattress who said I could use either, but I tend to want to use progressive. What do you think?

HELP 24p or 24pa?
 

CAn someone please explain to me the difference between the two. I shot an entire short on 24p, but my editor has problems digitizing it. The footage comes out choppy. PLease someone help and try to explain it to me. What other problems do you think are involved. He is using Final Cut. PLEASE HELP!

If shot in 24p, then capture/edit in a 60i, 29.97 timeline. If shot in 24PA, then capture removing pulldown and edit in a 24P timeline.



ash =o)

HELP editing 24p on FCP
 

Hey all you gurus out there. Here's one for you. I've been trying to digitize my footage shot on xl2 24p to FCP, but the images are choppy and not converting. Do you think its the deck (is there a specific deck for xl2 24p) or is it in the software? How do you feel digitizing out of the camera? Help, can't seem to figure it out? And it is shot in 24p not 24pa.

I ran into this same problem for a while. When capturing video, the deck, or any other device you use to digitze, will send the data on that tape to final cut pro at 30 frames--because that is what video is read as. It will still appear 24P in the timeline and when you have eported it as well, but it will not allow you to capture 24P without dropping frames. Set everything to 30 frames--it's 29.97 I believe. I just recently purchased a firestore hard drive that enables me to edit true 24P footage in final cut pro, under 23.97 frames. Other than that, you should be going with 30 frmes. Good luck.

The capture issues may be related to using a deck other than the XL2. I had that issue before. I would suggest that Allen try capturing the footage with the XL2.

As for FCP settings, if you have the current release 5.1.1 there is an easy setup for getting 24p advanced. See the image below.

-gb-

You should be experiencing no problem with this operation.
 

However, I have, myself, experienced instances where there is difficulty digitizing footage, most particularly footage shot on the XL series, when the camera is in the LP mode. In such a case, you'll need to use the camera to directly load the footage into final cut pro.

what kind of deck are you using? I have a Sony DSR-20 and that seems to do the trick in most cases.

If it turns out that you are shooting in the LP mode, then I must ask you why. You're limiting the quality for no real gain. Especially when you can buy Sony Premium mini-dv tapes at FilmTools for a mere $2.90 per tape. If you're not shooting LP, then there may be a scanning issue somewhere. But FCP can't tell the difference between 24p and a regular 30 frames per second. Good luck.

Capturing 24p
 

I am using Vegas with the XL2 and I was wondering if I had to capture my 24p footage with the XL2 or if it was ok to use a different camera such as the GL2.


Thanks
-Jim

the footage is shot in SP mode

What good is the 24p on the XL2?
 

What good is the 24p on the XL2, since major movements causes motion blur when trying to replicate using 1/48

It seems the 24p would only be good for talking heads interviews. Anyone have any tips on what the 24p is good for?

For narrative film...

You can see that motion blur too in film...

Adam, Are you asking this about 24p because you have used it or seen it and did Not like what you saw.......or because you just read about it and are not sure what it is for? The reason I am asking this is because I myself have never used it before and want to know if "24p blur" would come as a shock???

You might want to ask Panasonic DVX100 owners what good is 24P on their camcorders, because it's the exact same implementation on the Canon XL2.