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-   Canon XL and GL Series DV Camcorders (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-xl-gl-series-dv-camcorders/)
-   -   24p questions (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-xl-gl-series-dv-camcorders/34265-24p-questions.html)

Tony Tibbetts April 12th, 2007 07:39 PM

Just remember if you shoot in 30p and attempt to do a film out at some point you are hosed.

John L. Miller April 12th, 2007 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Bray (Post 658955)
You see TONS of blur in movies. You just don't notice it too much because they attempt to hide it by shooting from certain angles and tracking subjects during pans. It's part of the art.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say whoever told you to shoot 24P and up the shutter does not know what they are talking about. No point in shooting 24P if you're going to crank up the shutter. That defeats the whole purpose to me. You might as well just shoot 60i then. That's my opinion.

Just shoot 24P, 1/48 and pay attention to your angles. Make sure you have a subject to follow on pans.


When I say stuccado look, I refer to a look as though the picture hangs for an instant several times on a pan. I have no problem with MOTION BLUR. I do not see Tons of hang in films. I like the 24P look very much, But, maybe I wasn't clear enough explaining the issue. The hanging, like it moves in steps instead of smoothly is my problem. Thanks. j

Josh Bass April 12th, 2007 11:56 PM

Maybe I'm misunderstanding. . .do you mean "hangs" as in, when you pan, the picture doesn't change at a corresponding speed, like it lags, and then moves a few beats later? If so, that sounds like what happens when you're on a tripod, panning, with image stabilization turned on. The IS thinks your pan is the camera shaking, and tries to correct it.

If you just mean strobing, that's just how progressive modes look when panning past certain things and at certain speeds. . .even in 30p (it's the lack of interlace that does it, NOT the framerate). Watch TV/MOvies, you'll see the same thing; it's just like someone said, your attention is usually on whatever is motivating the pan (following someone walking), rather than the background behind them, which probably IS strobing.

Jack Barker April 13th, 2007 08:52 AM

Hear versions of this question a lot. How are you viewing the results, that you find unsatisfactory? If you are watching this on your computer monitor, these are NOT the same results that you will see on your TV set. If you shoot 24p, burn it to a DVD and then watch it, it will have been converted to 60i, the only thing your SD television can display. It won't look like it's been shot in 60i, but it will be 60i.

Upping the shutter speed to solve "staccato" problems is utter nonsense. The more you raise the shutter speed, the more it looks like the combat scenes in Saving Private Ryan, Band of Brothers, etc. - e.g. very staccato, but for an effect. Use 24p - 1/48, or 30p - 1/60.

I started off with this camera as a 24p fanboy - I had to have that "film look". But I am becoming increasingly enamoured of 30p. It still looks closer to film than video, but it's smoother than 24p.

Ben Winter April 13th, 2007 10:31 AM

And above all, the motion on a CRT and LCD is different than that of a projector--I just saw my short film on a 40' screen projected and the frame cadence was soo much better looking--24p, but it seemed so much more impressive.

Jack Barker April 13th, 2007 10:34 AM

Ben - film, or digital projection?

Alan James April 13th, 2007 08:25 PM

You have to understand that the only reason 24 looks jittery is because most people play it back at 30 fps with a 2:3:3:2 or 2:3 pulldown added. ANY frame rate with an added pull down will look jittery NO MATTER WHAT. If you shoot a frame rate you have to play back that footage at the same frame rate at which you recored it. With 24p the only really practical way is to transfer it to film and project it in a theater. ANY tv or computer monitor you watch it on will be either 30p 60i or 60p (for the most part). There are very few 24p monitors, so a pulldown is usually added (and the monitors that do have 24p are a bit pricey).

So consider where it will most likely be shown. If you shoot 30p or 60i it can only ever be on video (unless you cheat). but if you shoot at 24p you can adapt it to any format later, the same way major motion pictures do. And of course use a 1/48 (180 degree) shutter to take out the motion blur. Motion blur isn't always a bad thing like most people think. If you have no motion blur it looks a bit stop motiony and thats annoying after a while. have fun and good luck.

Greg Boston April 13th, 2007 09:13 PM

The other thing folks forget to realize. 24P looks smoother when projected in a theater because the theater is DARK. That makes the iris in our eyes open up and then persistence of vision fills in the gaps between the 48fps projection rate (each frame is displayed twice).

-gb-

John Hudson April 13th, 2007 10:00 PM

The staccato of 24p ?

If you are panning on a subject matter; you'll be fine visually

If you're panning on nothing; there are formulas for shutter speed. I've never heard of the apprehension to shoot 24p for fear of strobing

Learn how to use the camera and it'll be kind to you ! Even the Arri's suffer from this phenomenon. Slow down your pans or ceneter on an object doing the panning (a car or bike rider, et al)

.02

Ash Greyson April 13th, 2007 11:50 PM

Hudson is correct, if you are noticing the motion in that manner, you are not executing properly. Slow down your pans, make your moves around a subject that draws your eye, etc. You will notice the same thing from a 35mm camera if not moved properly, there is actually a formula for how many feet you can cover in how many seconds...




ash =o)

John L. Miller April 14th, 2007 10:57 AM

Thanks for all the comments, these are the best suggestions I have heard. Thanks! J

Ash Greyson April 14th, 2007 11:53 AM

More tips.... turn OFF all image stabilization and stay away from medium shots with deep focus.



ash =o)

Ron Stoecklein April 29th, 2007 09:29 AM

24p or 60i?
 
Yes there are links to this question in the forum but the answers aren't clear enough--or my brain simply can't see the answer clear enough so..

I am shooting a surf film in el Salvador-Xl2 and Gl2-The actual surfing is shot at 60i--shutter speed around 1/60 to 1/125 depending on the light---almost always using a circular polarizing filter--with a Custom Preset that was posted on this site for shooting ocean takes.

Question is--I typically leave the setting at 60i even when shooting Lifestyle scenes or Landscape\seascapes--would I get better results if I shot the Lifestyle scenes, etc. in 24p? If so when edited in FCP is there any problem with mixing the 2 speeds?

Thanks
Ron

Ash Greyson April 29th, 2007 10:13 PM

You can mix both but I recommend shooting with the 2:3 pulldown and editing in a normal 60i timeline




ash =o)

Michael Sweeney May 21st, 2007 08:30 PM

24p, 60i, 30p....letters and numbers or more??
 
Okay, well I just got my XL2 and need some info and clarification on the 24p, 60i, and 30p. What are the differences and what is better? How do they relate to editing?
Thanks,
Mike

Benjamin Hill May 22nd, 2007 08:13 AM

The short answer is:

number = frames-per-second
letter = progressive or interlaced scanning

One is not better than the other, but the different modes lend themselves to different applications. You can find many discussions about the uses of 24P vs 30P vs. 60i by searching the forum, and you also might find useful info on the XL2 page:

http://www.dvinfo.net/canonxl2/index.php

and this too:
http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage..._nattress.html

Chris C. Collins May 22nd, 2007 05:06 PM

And not to be offensive or anything, but next time you invest in something like a professional camera or other high price electronics it's good to do a little more research prior to purchase.

Mark Leonard May 24th, 2007 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris C. Collins (Post 684105)
And not to be offensive or anything, but next time you invest in something like a professional camera or other high price electronics it's good to do a little more research prior to purchase.

well this sounds a little offensive as some of us have the money to buy "high price" electronic toys and then figure out how they work after :)

everyone needs to be able to ask basic questions and learn somewhere without snarky comments being thrown at them:
(http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=90949)


and Mike those are basically the shooting modes that you choose based on what your shooting and how you want the final project to look. there are probably thousands of ideas and which one to use in what situation all over this site alone :). just getting started I would say shoot with 60i as you learn how the different modes look and feel.

wiki has lots on this as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_rate

Mark Bournes May 24th, 2007 08:30 AM

In the xl-2 manual it gives you a definition of these terms.

Chris C. Collins May 24th, 2007 03:23 PM

Best Cinematic Look: 24p or 60i with 1/30 shutter?
 
The other day I watched two blockbuster movies shot on DV.

-28 Days Later
and
-Dancer in the Dark

Both were excellent films, but they both had quite a difference to them composition-wise.

I'm not sure of the settings that 28 Days Later was shot on, although it looks somewhat like 24p... but I did however find a great way to replicate the way Dancer in the Dark was shot.

This movie had an interesting feel to it, a somewhat blurry and shakey picture. Not so much in the camera movements, but that you could obviously tell it had something to do with a lowered shutter.

So I set off and experimented a little, shooting in 60i and 1/30 shutter gives almost the exact feel of Dancer in the Dark.

Now two questions come to mind:
1. Which looks more cinematic, 24p or 60i (1/30)?

2. If 60i, is 24p really the way to go for a film-like cinema feel or is it just a fluke to sell camcorders?

Discuss!

P.S. EDIT: If someone knows the tech settings for 28 Days Later or some other way to replicate it, please share!!

Chris C. Collins May 24th, 2007 03:36 PM

Not to spark any trouble, Mark, I apologize. I guess from a teenager's point of view buying something expensive and figuring it out later is less logical because of my lack of money and all the hard work I had to do to get my XL2. Because of this, I knew everything the camera had to offer months before actually purchasing it.

I just thought frame rate was a little basic.
Enjoy your new camera, Micheal!

Mitch Fillion May 24th, 2007 03:48 PM

28 days later
 
i was actually watching the making of 28 days later that comes on the dvd not too long ago and they zoom in on a shot of the LCD screen at one point and all the settings are visible. i couldn't tell you what they are unless i watched it again and paused it but they were there.

but try 1/100 on 24p, and do the quick pans that they do. i found that it looks very similar!

Mike Andrade May 24th, 2007 03:59 PM

Chris,

You might want to ask someone like Ash Greyson about the 28 days look. He is sensei with the XL2 settings and can probably get you there.

Chris C. Collins May 24th, 2007 04:02 PM

Really? 1/100? From my general browsing around the sight, it seems almost as if god forbids to shoot in 24p without accompanying it with 1/48. I figured the "cine" effect would be lost without those two settings like "Q and U."

I've gone to Best Buy the past 2 days in a row to buy 28 Days Later but the first time it was on the storage truck outside, and today it still wasn't stocked on the shelf, but the computer program said 3 copies were available somewhere within the store.

Bummer, I really want to digest this movie in and out!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Andrade (Post 685798)
Chris,

You might want to ask someone like Ash Greyson about the 28 days look. He is sensei with the XL2 settings and can probably get you there.

Yeah, I'm hoping he'll poke his head in on this one. ;]

OH! And I forgot to ask: is this look/feel impossible with the XL2 and exclusive to XL1 only? I'm sure it isn't, but ya never know...

Matt Newcomb May 25th, 2007 12:17 AM

They used high shutter speeds lot of times in that movie and they were shooting at 25p, since they were using PAL cameras I believe. There is a ton of info on the web ab out it though.

Chris C. Collins May 25th, 2007 04:55 AM

I noticed the high shutters, yeah, but I was watching the Making Of featurette and it showed them filming/the raw footage and it looked much smoother than the final shot I saw in the film. So partly it's a post production trick.

And about the 25p/PAL thing, yeah I saw on the LCD during the Making Of thing that it said PAL and that suprised me because I thought that 25p was more European based since their television standard has always been 50i. I had no idea Canon XL1's could shoot 25p, let alone in PAL...

I don't think there is any significant difference that gets lost in translation is there?

Jack Barker May 25th, 2007 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris C. Collins (Post 686055)
And about the 25p/PAL thing, yeah I saw on the LCD during the Making Of thing that it said PAL and that suprised me because I thought that 25p was more European based since their television standard has always been 50i. I had no idea Canon XL1's could shoot 25p, let alone in PAL...

Well, it was shot in Europe, by Europeans, using European (PAL) XL1's and XL1S's, so it shouldn't be a great surprise.

I never owned, or was much interested in the XL1 or the XL1S, but I seem to remember that neither of them had 24/25p. The XL1S had 60i and "frame" 30p only, so wouldn't the equivalent hold true for the PAL model?

Jonathan Scruggs May 25th, 2007 09:28 AM

28 days later
 
as far as what camera was used, i know they used the PAL xl1s with ec and ej prime lenses with optex adapters, but for the final scene (where they pull the sheets across the field) they used 35mm. [via imdb]

as far as the shutter speed, the rule for frantic action (i.e. zombies who can run) is a high shutter speed. you also see this method a lot in war films/combat shots lately, ala saving private ryan and band of brothers.

according to imdb, dancer in the dark used a Sony DSR-1P, a Sony DSR-PD100P, a Sony DSR-PD150, and a Sony DXC-D30WSP, all with custom anamorphic lenses. however, i'm almost positive the used 35mm for the dream/dancing sequences.

Michael Sweeney May 26th, 2007 03:18 PM

Well it's not a matter of not knowing anything about the camera I just spent $2200 on. It's more the matter of just clarifying and getting a bit more information. I understand most of the basicas and just wanted to see if anyone would have some extra knowledge.
Thanks

Geoff Dills May 26th, 2007 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris C. Collins (Post 685781)
I guess from a teenager's point of view buying something expensive and figuring it out later is less logical

good lesson in "if you can't add to the knowledge being offered, don't" rule.

Alan James May 28th, 2007 05:34 AM

The reason the crew of 28 days later used PAL instead of NTSC was because the latest XL series camera out at the time was the XL1s which was just coming out. This camera only shot 4X3 footage and thus had to have a 16X9 extraction. PALís resolution is 720X576 and NTSC is 720X480. The pixels are stretched/compressed to make a 4X3 image. PAL is stretched 1.06 times wider and NTSC is 0.9, but they still contain only 720 pixels wide.

This is where the term ďnon-square pixelĒ comes from.

If you extract the middle 16X9 (1.77:1) area of PAL itís a higher resolution then NTSC. I belive its 433 scan lines in PAL to 366 scan lines in NTSC (correct me if Iím wrong).

By playing the 25p footage back at 24p it was close enough to pull off the effect of actually shooting in 24p, but you get extra resolution. Itís only 96% slower and from scene to scene it wouldnít change the pacing of the movie. There were loads of other limitations the production dealt with, being thatís shooting movies with DV was a new thing, but most were minor like color compression, replacing blown out skies later in post, and removing noise when they shot at night time.

Most of the action was shoot with a higher shutter, most likely over 1/250 of a second (just a guess but probably around 1/500 or so, again just a guess). Most of the problems they faced were eliminated when HDCAM SR cameras, like the Sony F950, hit the market.

Have fun

Michael Bearns January 1st, 2008 12:37 PM

60i, 30P or 24P
 
Hello,

I am new to this forum and I have a question.
I did receive a Canon XL2 For a Christmas Gift.
My Question is, "What do I set my camera on when I am taping?
60i, 30P or 24P?
I mostly video tape weddings and I would like to get the best possible picture possible. The guide that came with the camera only talk about this area in general. I would appreciate any suggestions, setups, just about anything to give me the look I am looking for. Thanks in advance and wishing you all a very nice New Year.

Sincerly
Michael

Cole McDonald January 1st, 2008 12:59 PM

If you search for those terms, you'll come up with bunches of threads on the subject and the strengths and caveats of each.

Joseph Andolina January 1st, 2008 05:03 PM

Definetly do some research. But also experiement with the camera, since you have it now at your fingertips. Congrats on your new wonderful gift :)

You should try all your options, 24pn, 24pa, 30p, 60I.

My favorite is 24pn & even 30p. Although I don't think it can be considered a true film look, but I've gotten many compliments by others how the shots look like film to them. But of course, it's all about lighting & exposure. And you can play with different presets to tweek to what looks good to you.

I love also the anamorphic 16:9 setting.

And the camera leaves options open for you, like if you have a second camera of some kind that only shoots in 60I to get other shots at a wedding shoot, at least you can shoot 60I with the XL2 to go with 60I for the entire shoot.

BTW, I think 60I looks great with the XL2 as well.

Joe

Manu De Smet January 2nd, 2008 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joseph Andolina (Post 800958)

I love also the anamorphic 16:9 setting.

Sorry to go a bit off topic here but this option, where can i find it, or are you talking about the standard 16:9 on the XL2?

Chris Hurd January 2nd, 2008 06:24 AM

It's not an option, there's only one 16:9 setting. Joseph refers to it as anamorphic because of the way it's recorded to tape.

Jack Barker January 2nd, 2008 10:02 AM

Start by watching the XL2 Features Tour. I believe once you have watched it, you can save it to your computer as a QuickTime movie.

http://dvcreators.net/media/demos/xl...aturetour.html

Then, you might consider The Ultimate Guide to the Canon XL2, here

http://www.filmwareproducts.com/Ulti...de/UG-XL2.html


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