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-   -   24p questions (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-xl-gl-series-dv-camcorders/34265-24p-questions.html)

Marty Hudzik September 9th, 2005 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash Greyson
24P absolutely looks jumpy, you dont notice it as much at the theater because the screen is huge, it is being SHOWN at 24P with no pulldown and it is being filmed by DPs who know how to make up for the limitations. You state it yourself, "more gaps in motion" means less smooth.

ash =o)

Examples:

A pan across a room at x speed may look jumpy.

A pan across that same room at x speed following an actor will look less jumpy because the actor is staying semi consistent in the center of the frame. This draws the eyes away from the jumpiness in the background.

A pan across that same room at the same x speed with a 35mm Prime lens following an actor is even less jumpy if the background is out of focus and that further drives the eyes to the subject that is is focus and staying somewhat consistent in the frame. Additionally the softer out of focus background eases the jumpiness by eliminating sharper edges.

24p requires careful planning.

And everyone should remember that it is less "juttery" when encoded in a traditional 3:2 pulldown rather thant the 2:3:3:2 also. I notice a nice improvement when watching the final 24P DVD's versus the raw footage.

FWIW.

Marco Wagner September 9th, 2005 06:58 PM

I shoot almost everything at 30fps and mostly make it look more like film in post. 24p great and all but IMO very overated. It's all about content, lighting, DOF, and your post methods that really create the biggest similarity to film.

Brian Wells September 9th, 2005 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marlon Torres
it looks like its doubling frames or something...any suggestions?

You are right, that doesn't look right to me, either. Take a few deep breaths..

First, nomenclature:
24ProgressiveNormal is 23.976Fps with a 2-3-2-3 pulldown, basically a "playback" format.
24ProgressiveAdvanced is 23.976Fps with a 2-3-3-2 pulldown, basically an "editing" format.

When shooting on an XL2, it's important to know whether the footage was recorded with a 2-3-2-3 pulldown OR with a 2-3-3-2 pulldown because the editing process is different for each. A mixmatch of settings will undoubtedly cause footage to appear a bit "off."

Successful editing of 24Fps content requires knowing all the steps and getting them all right. If you get all the steps right, the footage will look right.

Right now there isn't enough information presented here for you to get the help you need... Please, let us know the following:

1. What pulldown settings were used on the camera.
2. What editing software you are using along with the capture and timeline settings.

Then, someone can probably help. If you're on a Mac, I could probably help.

Andrew Khalil September 19th, 2005 09:07 PM

24P modes
 
Hello,
I'm just wondering which of the 2 24P modes (2:3 or 2:3:3:2) I should be using all the time and whether there are advantages to using one over the other in terms of the look. I don't plan on transferring to film, but I was just curious as to whether the second method will add to the look.
Thanks

Kelly Wilbur September 20th, 2005 08:24 AM

Andrew, there was a long discussion about this at:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=47160

Skip the first 5 posts as they have inaccurate or incomplete information. Start at my post (post 6) and from there on is a very detailed answer to your question.

Andrew Khalil September 20th, 2005 08:58 AM

excellent, thanks for the link

Saturnin Kondratiew September 20th, 2005 11:27 AM

i just tested 24p footage in 60i timline in premiere pro 1.5 and its way to jerky...
i did the AE 200% drop and its nice and smooth slo motion.... but still cant figure out how to edit 24p and 60i togther easily... if i missed something..post up..
thanx guys
Saturnin

Marlon Torres September 23rd, 2005 02:02 PM

24p and 60i on the same tape?
 
Is it okay to record 24p and 60i footage on the same tape?

Chris Hurd September 23rd, 2005 02:06 PM

Yes, it is okay to record 24p and 60i footage on the same tape.

Theresa Roque September 23rd, 2005 05:21 PM

Best NLE system for 24p 16:9 Canon XL2 footage?
 
I really don't know where to edit my footage, shot in Canon XL2 at 24p and 16:9.

Currently I'm on a Pinnacle DV500 Plus-Premiere 6 system, and apparently they don't support 24p.

Tried using Premiere Pro 1.5 but somehow it couldn't connect to the DV500's capture board (DV/IEEE1394 option is displaying "Unable to connect to capture driver" stuff in Premiere 6, and that seems to be the same case for P-Pro 1.5 as it keeps saying my camera is "Offline" at the Device monitor + I couldn't see anything from my camera in the capture screen). I'm connected via firewire. Adobe (and Pinnacle) doesn't seem to support the XL2 at all? (Canon's fault for releasing XL2's 24p mode too late, I think?)

So maybe my DV500 board has finally been unable to keep up with the current 24p trend, and now is about to be trashed? (been using it for 8 years already, despite the frequent difficulties I've experienced with it. I'll surely miss its bluebox)

So I'm now considering buying a new capture board. What could be the -Best- NLE system for 24p 16:9 Canon XL2 footage out there? One that could also support analog input, not just digital (via firewire)? Currently eyeing Edius NX for HDV because it still has analog support (like DV500... not sure though if they have solid support for 24p 16:9 footage) but I want it to work with Vegas...

Or could I just buy a generic IEEE 1394 OHCI firewire card to work with Vegas? (is there image quality sacrifice here if ever? I would want to work faster so I'd really appreciate it if there's some realtime stuff in the NLE system too, like in DV500). Please suggest anything worth the price.

Greg Boston September 23rd, 2005 08:50 PM

Theresa,

You won't need any specific capture card. Just use your firewire port. Oh, you wanted analog out. Well, guess what? You already have it. Your XL2 will act as an analog pass through so you can hook up a vcr or whatever it is that you want to go analog out to. You don't have to record to tape to get the analog out. That's why it's considered a passthrough device.

good luck,

-gb-

Theresa Roque September 23rd, 2005 10:38 PM

My PC doesn't really have a native firewire port.

It is the DV500's card that has a firewire port, but I really couldn't get it to work with either Vegas or P-Pro or even at DV500's DV/IEEE1394 capture mode (the "Unable to connect to capture driver" thing... I can usually only do digital/firewire capturing when I'm using DV500's Pinnacle AVI capture mode.)

Greg Boston September 23rd, 2005 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theresa Roque
My PC doesn't really have a native firewire port.

It is the DV500's card that has a firewire port, but I really couldn't get it to work with either Vegas or P-Pro or even at DV500's DV/IEEE1394 capture mode (the "Unable to connect to capture driver" thing... I can usually only do digital/firewire capturing when I'm using DV500's Pinnacle AVI capture mode.)

You can get a firewire card to put in place of the capture card for next to nothing. Also, keep in mind that no matter what mode it's shot in, the signal off the tape is still always 60i so it's really up to the NLE to understand how to interpret 24P. You should get something, albeit with jerky motion if your NLE doesn't do 24P.

-gb-

Theresa Roque September 24th, 2005 07:41 PM

ok, I finally bought a firewire card, an InnoDV DV1000. I can finally see my footage streaming in at Premiere Pro.

I couldn't get the "Capture video" function working in Vegas though... what's wrong? (sorry for sounding too much like a newbie, I guess I'm just too overwhelmed =( )

Doug Boze September 24th, 2005 08:08 PM

I can't tell what's wrong with the new card, but Pinnacle's cards have been trouble for years. They are designed to work only with Pinnacle software (surprise!) so the solution is to get a rock-bottom, dirt-cheap, plain-vanilla, ultra-generic IEEE 1394 card. It's been years since I tossed my Pinnacle (should be Barnacle) card. I recall something about OHCI compliant chips vs. Texas Instruments chips, but the ports I have now are built into the mobo (Intel) and PPro 1.5 works like a charm. I use it to capture off a Sony DSR-25 DVCAM deck.

Marty Hudzik September 24th, 2005 09:48 PM

While there is no technical reason not too, you should at least be aware that when using some capturing programs the 24PA flag is detected at the beginning of the capture and stays constant throughout. Where this could be an issue is if you record 24PA at the beggining and then switch to 60i later, the 24PA flag may still be set for the 60i footage. Your editor may try to drop what it thinks are duplicate frames from the 60i footage.

It can be an inconvenience and you may have to do multiple captures for the 60i and 24P segments to insure proper pulldown.

Marlon Torres September 24th, 2005 10:57 PM

i'll be using premiere pro, will that be a problem?

Theresa Roque September 25th, 2005 01:24 AM

((btw, I'm thinking of boxing away my DV500 board, and eyeing the Canopus DVStorm2 Pro... what do you think? Same functions like analog/digital IO but Canopus' better? Or should I wait for another two to four years and just buy myself an Apple/FCP?))


I think nothing's wrong with the new firewire card. It's just that it seems I couldn't connect Vegas' Video Capture function to the card (as in Vegas' Video Capture function does not run when I press its icon). Vegas' Preferences menu isn't giving me any hints.

(visited the Vegas site, went to support, says I have to download the 6c update or something because some systems really behave that way. downloading it now... will update you later if the Video Capture function finally works)

The card's ok with Premiere Pro, I can see things, but I really want to do it the Vegas way >=)

Greg Boston September 25th, 2005 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theresa Roque
((btw, I'm thinking of boxing away my DV500 board, and eyeing the Canopus DVStorm2 Pro... what do you think? Same functions like analog/digital IO but Canopus' better? Or should I wait for another two to four years and just buy myself an Apple/FCP?))


I think nothing's wrong with the new firewire card. It's just that it seems I couldn't connect Vegas' Video Capture function to the card (as in Vegas' Video Capture function does not run when I press its icon). Vegas' Preferences menu isn't giving me any hints.

(visited the Vegas site, went to support, says I have to download the 6c update or something because some systems really behave that way. downloading it now... will update you later if the Video Capture function finally works)

The card's ok with Premiere Pro, I can see things, but I really want to do it the Vegas way >=)

Theresa,

The firewire card should be a transparent part of the process at this point. It's fully supported by the OS and any modern day NLE should be able to work with it barring a program glitch such as what you described. I hope the 6c works okay for you.

I finally gave up on Pinnacle Liquid Edition awhile back and went with Mac/FCP. Have been really happy with it and it's so much nicer connecting to the internet without having to have a myriad number of software programs in place to guard the computer.

Anyway, this thread is not really relevant to the XL2 so we better end it or I'll have to find it a new home. :-)

-gb-

Marty Hudzik September 25th, 2005 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marlon Torres
i'll be using premiere pro, will that be a problem?

Yes??? That is the exact app that I have the problem with! I usually use vegas 5 to capture my video and Premiere pro to edit. However I have not tried using the "scene detect" capability in PPRO. I think it has it. Vegas does this by default and that is why I started capturing with that app. Essentially the capture software starts a new .avi at each new scene on the tape. Therefore every scene redetects the cadence and it is set properly for each clip individually. Another thing that can cause this is a dropout on the tape. That can mees with the recorded cadence also.

Again, you may be able to set Premiere Pro to do this but I have not looked into that yet. It is also important to note that sometimes this is not an issue. I have seen it when I have just 24PA on my tape but I have multiple sessions. Meaning I recored 2 segments at different times.....thus the 24PA cadence may not be in sync on both sections of the tape. Premiere seems to lock on to the first segment and then carries that cadence into the second.....regardlees if it is in sync or not.

Good Luck. As I said, I have captured many tapes without incident in Premiere but occasionally it loses track and messes up everything! In Vegas it is alway dead on....at least so far. Plus I have learned to love having many discreet .avis to work with rather than one large one.

Mike Phan October 23rd, 2005 04:45 PM

Focus problem in 24p
 
Hi everyone, I'm playing around with my week old XL2. I notice that when i'm in 24p mode that set with auto focus it doesn't focus well or at all when i'm doing ECU shots. I have a full batter and i'm really holding it very steady but its still out of focus. Am i doing something?

Phil Rogerson October 23rd, 2005 06:02 PM

Hello Mike... have you tried focussing on a single/flat plane at the same distance as is causing the problem?

I just tried focussing on my laptop monitor, to check if my XL2 did the same, and it doesn't.

The other thing you can try, if you haven't already, is to manually override the auto focus, it is allowed, and works well.

But you say the problem is peculiar only to 24p mode, so I must assume that you've tried all I've suggested. -- phil.

Ash Greyson October 24th, 2005 02:20 PM

Lame answer but learn to use manual focus... the DVX doesnt even try to focus in 24P. If you are in lower light, forget it....


ash =o)

Greg Boston October 24th, 2005 03:33 PM

The Canon autofocus does not work at 24P. This is stated in the manual. The autofocus is sampling the image on the ccd's and 24fps doesn't provide fast enough updates.

-gb-

Phil Rogerson October 24th, 2005 04:48 PM

24p vs 25p
 
My apologies Mike, I assumed, wrongly I see, that 24 & 25p would behave the same when it came to autofocus.

Interesting that the XL2 won't auto-focus in 24p NTSC, yet it does in 25p PAL. I guess there's a technical reason for that (maybe the pull down pattern) that I don't know.

The manual for the PAL XL2 says, "In 25p mode autofuocus takes longer than in 50i mode."

That's definitely my experience, and in low light, if the focus is way off it's easy to grab a manual focus.

Pete Bauer October 24th, 2005 06:53 PM

Yeah, the slower the frame rate, the tougher time the autofocus has. Low light, low contrast, lack of vertical lines, a lot of motion all make the job of the autofocus more difficult. Under challenging 24p conditions, you're probably going to be better off with manual focus. Page 40 of the instruction manual.

Even in brightly lit scenes, I've noticed that the autofocus will hunt more in 24p than in 30p (and probably a lot more than 60i, but I've not yet shot a frame of video with my XL2 in 60i to verify it).

Chris Hurd October 24th, 2005 08:28 PM

On the XL2, autofocus actually does work in 24p, but it is very slow. Autofocus needs information from previous frames and gets its updates from one frame to the next, analyzing it one frame at a time. So the slower the frame rate, the slower the autofocus. When in doubt, go manual. Hope this helps,

Greg Boston October 24th, 2005 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd
On the XL2, autofocus actually does work in 24p, but it is very slow. Autofocus needs information from previous frames and gets its updates from one frame to the next, analyzing it one frame at a time. So the slower the frame rate, the slower the autofocus. When in doubt, go manual. Hope this helps,

Well that's true. It's not actually disabled by the camera in the 24p mode, but as you noted, it's very slow. So slow that I consider it unusable and that's what I meant when I said it 'doesn't work' in 24p. :-)

-gb-

Andrew Oh November 16th, 2005 05:48 PM

For 30P to 24P slow mo, should I use Shutter Speed 30 or 60 for smooth slo mo?
 
Thanks in advance!


Andrew

Josh Caldwell November 16th, 2005 11:56 PM

For smooth slow motion without having to use third party software, you should shoot it in 60i mode. It'll give it the smoothest look. For an example, check out this spec commercial I shot:

www.meydenbauerentertainment.com/heineken.html

We shot 60i and slowed it down in post.

Ralph Roberts November 17th, 2005 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh Caldwell
For smooth slow motion without having to use third party software, you should shoot it in 60i mode. It'll give it the smoothest look. For an example, check out this spec commercial I shot:

www.meydenbauerentertainment.com/heineken.html

We shot 60i and slowed it down in post.

NICE!

--Ralph

Marlon Torres November 21st, 2005 01:13 PM

haha, that was hilarious!

Tony Tibbetts November 22nd, 2005 02:16 AM

Hmmm... if you were to shoot in 30p then drag it into a 24p timeline would it have a slight slo-mo effect? I'm guessing it would. Has any one tried this?

Richard Hunter November 22nd, 2005 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Tibbetts
Hmmm... if you were to shoot in 30p then drag it into a 24p timeline would it have a slight slo-mo effect? I'm guessing it would. Has any one tried this?

If the NLE interprets the frame rate correctly there should be no slo-mo, just conversion artifacts.

Richard

Ty Ford November 23rd, 2005 08:15 AM

I need workflow for 24P, 16:9 with an FS-4 and FCP
 
Hi,

I'm trying to shoot and edit (FCP 4.5) at 24P, 16:9 and I'm currently using a Firestore FS-4 Pro set to Quicktime 24P.

I need help:

1. Figuring out which 24P setting to use on the XL2.
2. Which import settings to use on FCP.
3. Which export settings to use on FCP to get max res for iDVD.

Thanks a bunch.

Ty Ford

Michael Padilla November 24th, 2005 01:11 AM

I had the same setup, and for some reason when I used the setting on the fs-4 on quicktime 24p it really messed things up! The only way I fixed the issue is by shooting in quicktime or raw dv mode on the firestore regardless of how I was shooting (60i, 30p, 24p).

As for your settings on fcp I've had most sucess just in standard ntsc dv anamorphic (if in 16x9) setting.

export just as you would for anything else going to dvd - standard export using current document settings, let it render and then import to idvd (highly recomend dvd studio pro 4)

thats it...

Ty Ford November 24th, 2005 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Padilla
I had the same setup, and for some reason when I used the setting on the fs-4 on quicktime 24p it really messed things up! The only way I fixed the issue is by shooting in quicktime or raw dv mode on the firestore regardless of how I was shooting (60i, 30p, 24p).

As for your settings on fcp I've had most sucess just in standard ntsc dv anamorphic (if in 16x9) setting.

export just as you would for anything else going to dvd - standard export using current document settings, let it render and then import to idvd (highly recomend dvd studio pro 4)
thats it...

Thanks Michael,

When I spoke to Amanda at their technical support line, she said there had been some problems but wasn't hopeful for an answer. I thought that was weird. Did you also have issues with getting the XL2 and FS-4 Pro to operate correctly? The manual and Amanda said to start the XL2 first, but after having two FS-4 Pros here, I found that the ONLY way the two would work together was if the FS-4 Pro was started first. Again, I thought it weird that their own tech support people wouldn't know the right way to do things. Where I come from, that's crap.

There are two 24P modes in the XL2, 2:3:2 and 2:3:3:2. Do you know which you chose and why?

Regards,

Ty Ford

Greg Boston November 24th, 2005 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ty Ford
There are two 24P modes in the XL2, 2:3:2 and 2:3:3:2. Do you know which you chose and why?

Regards,

Ty Ford

Ty,

This has been discussed several times and Adam Wilt has a good technical/graphical explanation on his site showing the difference between the two modes of 24P. Conventionally, if you were going to display the final output on tv, the regular 24P mode of 3:2 is used. If you were going to do a film out, the 24P advanced mode is used because it allows extracting 24 complete frames from a 60i stream. However, with DVD as a final output, some folks use the 24P advanced mode and edit in pure 24fps timeline because the DVD player can handle the conversion for output to TV.

I would use your firestore in regular 60i mode. That's what always comes off the tape or out the firewire cable. It's up to the NLE to properly decode the 60i stream back to the 24P in which you acquired it. FCP can do this automatically with 24P 3:2. You will need to make sure that both capture preset and sequence settings are set to NTSC DV and check the anamorphic box. DO NOT change the pixel dimensions or your video will look like &$&#. The anamorphic check box tells the NLE you shot in widescreen and that it needs to stretch the 720 horizontal pixels to create the 16:9 ratio.

If you use 24P 3:2, your timeline base is 29.97. If you shoot 24P advanced, you'll set the timebase to 23.98.

Also for widescreen, if you have graphics from Motion or Livetype, those will have to have dimensions of 852X480 to display in the 16:9 sequence properly. But that's only for graphics. Again, don't change the video dimensions.

Render the final sequence to a QT self contained movie. If you are authoring in DVDSP, when you bring in your QT movie as an asset, DVDSP has to be told it's an anamorphic sequence also. IIRC, it's a right click on the name.

Anyway, that should get you on your way. You can probably figure it out from there but if you need more help, we're here.

-gb-

Michael Padilla November 24th, 2005 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ty Ford
There are two 24P modes in the XL2, 2:3:2 and 2:3:3:2. Do you know which you chose and why?

Oh, thats your question... Ok, well just as Greg mentioned, one mode is for video and the other is ment for tape output. I have always used 2:3:2, so unless you plan your output to tape this is where you want to be.

Ty Ford November 24th, 2005 04:43 PM

Greg, Michael,

Thanks for the succcint tutorials! Next time I fire up and shoot 24p 2:3:2, 16:9, I'll try regular QT or Raw DV on the FS-4 Pro and see what happens when I import 16:9 anamorphic.

Please let me know if you ever have any audio questions.

Regards,

Ty Ford


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