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-   -   24p questions (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-xl-gl-series-dv-camcorders/34265-24p-questions.html)

Barry Green April 28th, 2005 01:03 PM

If you're editing on a 24p timeline, stick with 2:3:3:2. Even if you've started out with 2:3 footage. 2:3:3:2 exports the footage without having to re-interleave and recompress it.

The DVX uses the same methods: 2:3 is called "24P mode", 2:3:3:2 is called "24PA mode".

Derek Hoffman May 1st, 2005 09:35 PM

Put It Simply Please
 
Ok wow, although this whole thread helped me learn alot i am still very confused, can you just answer me this....

If i want to film a short "film", capture and edit on Premiere Pro 7.0 with a 24p timelline, export and burn a DVD with Encore, i should film in 24p with 2:3:3:2 pulldown, correct? Even though i have no intension of converting to film...

Also, when the xl2 films in 16:9, even though its at a higher resolution than 4:3 and it uses a bigger CCD, it still squeezes it into a 4:3 for editing right? So when i capture i should capture in a widescreen timeline/project?

Wait doesnt that defeat the whole purpose of the bigger CCD? Or does the tape have a fancy way of storing it so when you capture it it is recorded as 960x480?

Greg Boston May 3rd, 2005 10:32 PM

Ok guys...we have beaten the 24p horse to death in this thread. And because it has turned into a 'my way vs. your way' from some of the contributors, I am closing this thread. For anyone who still doesn't understand 24p workflow, I suggest additional reading and/or training dvds. I know I had to look at this workflow a few times myself before deciding the right way to proceed.

Thanks to all for putting forth their knowledge on this subject.

-gb-

Zia Basith May 16th, 2005 01:32 AM

XL2 24p with what shutter speed?
 
Hi guys, I'm shooting with XL2 with 24p fps and I' like to find out at what shutter speed whould I keep it at? Thanks,
ZIA

Jon Bickford May 16th, 2005 02:09 AM

to make 24p look like film you want to shoot at 1/48th of a second shutter speed, this replicates the spinning mirror in a film camera which is normally open and exposing the film half of the time.

Forbes Hansen May 16th, 2005 12:05 PM

also if you are going for a Saving Private Ryan look put it on 1/250 and move the camera around- it looks pretty cool.

Steve House June 14th, 2005 09:36 AM

XL2 24p output
 
When shooting in 24p mode, what is the framerate of the video that is actually recorded on tape? Is it recorded as true 24p or is it converted to standard NTSC 29.97 with pulldown such as you'd have when shooting on film and converting to video?

No sooner had I posted this than I found the answer

But in a related question, is there any problem in playing back tapes recorded on the XL2 in 24p with 2:3 or 2:3:3:2 pulldown on VTRs like the Sony DSR-11 or editing them in either Vegas or Premiere?

Rob Lohman June 16th, 2005 02:41 AM

For anyone else reading this: the answer to Steve's original question is that
the signal is pulled down to 60i (or 30 frames per second). The signal is NOT
stored as 24p, but it can be restored to that on a computer without ANY
signal/quality/frame loss!

To answer your "second" question, since the signal is just plain old NTSC any
DV device can work with it. However, a special flag has been set to let any
decoder that understands that flag know it was recorded in 24p with either
the 2:3 or 2:3:3:2 pulldown sequence.

So get back 24p you will need something that understands that (ie, a recent
NLE on a computer), but anything should be able to work with the signal
(in 60i/30p).

Vegas understands 24p from either one of the later updates to version 4 or
definitely from version 5. Premiere needs Premiere Pro (I think).

Steve House June 16th, 2005 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Lohman
For anyone else reading this: the answer to Steve's original question is that
the signal is pulled down to 60i (or 30 frames per second). The signal is NOT
stored as 24p, but it can be restored to that on a computer without ANY
signal/quality/frame loss!

To answer your "second" question, since the signal is just plain old NTSC any
DV device can work with it. However, a special flag has been set to let any
decoder that understands that flag know it was recorded in 24p with either
the 2:3 or 2:3:3:2 pulldown sequence.

So get back 24p you will need something that understands that (ie, a recent
NLE on a computer), but anything should be able to work with the signal
(in 60i/30p).

Vegas understands 24p from either one of the later updates to version 4 or
definitely from version 5. Premiere needs Premiere Pro (I think).

Thanks - my question was prompted by considerations regarding shooting in 24p mode in the XL2 and playing the resulting tapes on a deck as the capture device rather than using the camera as the playback device to get the material into the computer. Thinking of getting a DSR-11 for this purpose and I have seen comments elsewhere such as "the Sony DSR-11 doesn't do 24p" and just headed towards clarifying what such a remark really means regarding a mfgr's products. I know it doesn't record native 24p, but as I approach camera & VTR purchase decisions it wouldn't make sense to buy a deck that wouldn't play some of the tapes I'd be shooting.

Bill Zens June 16th, 2005 10:34 AM

So, to summarize....
All (or virtually all, as there are usually exceptions...) DV playback devices (whether camera or deck) will be able to read the 24p "flag" and will send that flag through as part of the captured video. It is then up to the software to read the flag, and then perform the pulldown...

Correct?????

Wes Coughlin June 16th, 2005 11:40 AM

First thing first; If you are using adobe premiere, you need adobe premiere pro 1.5. second, the programs (at least premiere) only show you a preview of what the 24p is going to be, at this poin it is still in the 60i format. third, after editing within your 24p timeline, you must then use a mpeg encoder to export your video, becuase mpeg is the only one that will allow a the 24p to export as actual 24fps. when exporting you need to select the frame rate to 24 or the 23.976 or whatever its appose to be, then on the GOP settings, change the 15 frame number to 12 (all of this is in premiere, im not sure about others). the reason why you cannot export to AVI is because it is strickly a 30 fps setting, and premiere will not preform the pull down; also be aware that you cannot mix any 24p with any 30p or 60i video, because the timeline is stickly for 24fps. Alot of media programs like Windows Media Player & Real Player will not play the newly exported 24fps video well, because of the frame rate. Adobe Encore is able to burn the progressive DVD and be able to play back on all progressive DVD players.

The key thing is, is that the 24p is not 24fps until you export to a true 24fps through an mpeg or somthing else. It's a hassel but has good results.

Lucinda Luvaas June 16th, 2005 05:15 PM

So, can you record at 24p and then use a 30fps settings in timeline, if you can't do a true 24p, or 24fps? I'm still using AP 6.5/Mac and was told I could use the 24 setting on the cam and 30 drop frame for the timeline. Is this correct?

Lucinda

Wes Coughlin June 16th, 2005 05:57 PM

AP 6.5 will allow you to place the 24p footage into the 30 fps timeline becuase the 24p is actually 30 fps footage; if you scroll frame by frame, you will see that every other or third frame is repeated; which is caused by the 2:3 pull down or the 2:3:3:2 pull down that you have selected; when you export the video, its nothin but 24 fps trying to be 30fps which is really bad. AP 6.5 does not have any 24p compatabilities; so far adobe has only recently updated their software to handle 24p and this is only in the new Adobe Premiere Pro 1.5. You should try to upgrade to FCP or Premiere Pro 1.5; their way better then premiere 6.5 (work flow is much faster) and are somewhat simmular to 6.5, so the transistion is not hard.

Lucinda Luvaas June 16th, 2005 07:58 PM

OK, I understand. For the time being, I can work in 30fps and what about 60i? can't I use the 30fps timeline for that, and what happens when I export that timeline. I am getting FCP, but not 'til the Fall and I need to do some work before the Fall in the version of Premiere that I have with the Canon. Lucinda

Rob Lohman June 17th, 2005 03:14 AM

Yes, the deck should just send the raw DV stream from tape over firewire
to your computer. Your computer simply stores this stream (in a wrapper
format) which it calls capturing. If the information isn't touched in these
steps (it shouldn't!!) then the flag is still present and any editing package
that understands this flag will be able to remove the pulldown.

Yes, you can also edit the footage with any editing package that does NOT
understand this 24p flag. However, it will just see 30 fps NTSC footage and
edit it like that.

Note: if you do the latter and output the editted movie the flag will be lost
in the OUTPUT file from that point forward. The source files will still have
the flag.

Lucinda Luvaas June 17th, 2005 10:42 AM

when you export the video, its nothin but 24 fps trying to be 30fps which is really bad.

This is what I'm concerned about. If I edit at 30p and then export will the footage look "really bad?" So, for the time being should I just edit at 30fps or 60i? please someone help! I need to know really soon. I don't want to start a film at 24 and then have to change or visa versa.

Lucinda

Wes Coughlin June 17th, 2005 12:18 PM

In AP 6.5 of what you have; it only allows you edit in the NSTC standard(their are no seperate 60i and 30p timelines, it just depends on how you should export the finish viedo), which is 29.97 fps. 60i is 29.97 fps and so is 30p; the only difference is that 30p is almost true 30fps because its progressive and 60i is like putting two frames together to make one, becuase its interlaced, so the overall frame rate is 29.97 fps. It is completley usless to edit a 24p movie and have the finish product be the wacked out 24p in the 29.97 fps setting. The 24p frame rates trying to be 30fps will not mess your video quality up, but the motion will be wack because when you insert a 24p video into a 29.97 timeline, every third or second frame will be repeated; because its 24 trying to be 30, so it has extra frames to make up the difference. If i were you, i would just film in 30p, and export in a "no fields" or progressive mode (interlace videos you usually have it set on "lower fields first" when exporting); becuase your videos are never going to be 24 fps unless you get premiere pro 1.5, FCP, Avid or vegas. and then after that you still need authorization tools (dvd burning software) that can handle the 24fps footage.

Tracy Graziano June 23rd, 2005 01:41 PM

to 24p or not to 24p (for plasma display)
 
Ok, question #2--
Are plasma screens progressive scan or interlace? I'm producing something that will end up on plasmas, and am thinking that shooting in 24p is the correct answer. Can anyone confirm that plasmas are progressive scan?
Thanks!

Graeme Nattress June 23rd, 2005 02:59 PM

They're progressive. 24p should work fine, and if you're making a 24p DVD should look great.

Graeme

Tracy Graziano June 23rd, 2005 03:22 PM

Thanks so much.
This forum is great!

Grant Carden June 23rd, 2005 10:37 PM

24p...why so "strobey"
 
Why does 24p seem so "stobe like" or jumpy on the xl2?

Chris Hurd June 23rd, 2005 10:49 PM

Because it's 24p. Seriously, if you require silky-smooth video, that's what 60i is for. 24p can appear to strobe if you're not careful; you must be very careful with your camera movements (pan slowly). 24p is a particular kind of look... if you don't like it, don't use it... 30p is sort of a compromise, be sure to try it out. Choose the frame rate that best suits what you're doing.

Wes Coughlin June 24th, 2005 11:41 AM

Most people have their 24p shutter speed fixed on 1/48, because this is what actual film cameras use most of the time. If you have a higher shutter speed, that can also cause your video to look much more strobe like.

Jon Laing June 24th, 2005 01:15 PM

tru, i set my shutter to 1/24th because 1/48th is too stroby to me, 1/24th is much smoother, more film-like if you ask me.

Lucinda Luvaas June 27th, 2005 01:24 PM

Thanks Wes! I've been away and just got back to read your reply. What about the 60interlaced? couldn't I use that and export at 29.97? My other question is: I have a dvd recorder which I've been using for back up onto dvdr's as well as final output. If I use the 24p option, when I get FCP that is, will I be able to export the footage to the dvd recorder? Thanks Wes!

Wes Coughlin June 27th, 2005 10:27 PM

Yes about the 60i interlaced. But please dont get confused about the number 60, in the case of 60 interlaced frames, the frame rate is 29.97 fps. Its kinda hard to understand because it does actually take 60 frames persecond; but it combines 2 frames to make one, so it ends up bieng 30; this is where you here about people talking about horizontal video lines that you may see during fast motion, and that is caused by the interlaced frames; and then they will talk about ways to deinterlace the frames, which would be like 30p in a way. when you export interlaced videos, you usaully choose to export the lower field first, when compared the progressive, all you want to do is export no fields or progressive mode. I dont know much about fcp, but i would love to get a mac and get it; but people do tons of film work and 24p work on that so you should not have a problem. Im not sure about the DVD features, but ill bet it has one that will work fine when exporting your 24p project. you will most likley have to change some settings before you export it, so ask some more question to be well informed.

Bill Edmunds July 6th, 2005 10:07 AM

24p or 60i for display on HD-TV?
 
Is it better to shoot with 24p (or 30p) for a final product to be shown on a 720p television? Or will it still have that jittery motion quality?

Bruce Francis Cole July 6th, 2005 06:21 PM

Those damn LCDs...
 
Great work... It's very tricky judging exposure of the LCD monitors... especially if they are not calibrated correctly. Adorable kid! And again thanks for the footage online!

Dave Ferdinand July 6th, 2005 06:34 PM

It's all very nice until you get to the shot of the girl with the pumpkin. We can't see her face - surely it shouldn't be in the shadow? IMO it makes it look amateurish.

Apart from that it's cool.

Doug Thron July 16th, 2005 01:23 PM

hotrod video...24p, 30p, or 60i
 
I have been a professional still photographer for about 15 years and recently got an XL2 and am going to be getting into making a how to build a hotrod video and wondered what would be best to shoot in 24p, 30p, or 60i? I seem to like how the 60i looks in test shoots but are there any pluses or minuses to using it if I'm planning on editing it and putting it on dvd and vhs to market eventually. Or should I be shooting it on 24p or 30p? Any help would be very much appreciated. thanks, Doug.

Ash Greyson July 16th, 2005 02:23 PM

If DVD/VHS is the final medium, you are fine with anything. In my exeperience I find 30P works great for NTSC DVDs. It will give you extremely clear images with less stuttering than 24P. If there is going to be a lot of motion, 30P can create a nice effect when combined with a high shutter. Just test it out, you cant really go wrong. The only issues with 30P can be transferring to PAL or bumping to film.



ash =o)

Doug Thron July 16th, 2005 04:54 PM

what are the pro and cons of shooting or editing if I shot the hotrod video on 60i? does it cause problems if i mix it up some of it shot 30p and some 60i? thanks for any help.

Wes Coughlin July 16th, 2005 09:49 PM

It all depends on how you want your videos to look. If you like the look you see on the TV shows then 60i would be the best. 30p is heading towards more a film look but has advantages by not interlacing its frames, so i can help make motion look sharper. Im not a big fan on high shutter speeds, but thats just me; most videos have a 1/60 shutter speed for 30fps and 1/48 shutter for 24fps; this is because it allows more motion blurr for slower the film rate so their is less stobeness to the video. 24p will give you a nice cine/film look.
I would not recommend mixing 60i with 30p, because when you export you want 30p to be in "no fields" (progressive) and 60i to be lower field first.
Video is magical, becuase you can choose what ever you want. Mabye you want the hot rode video to look like it was shot on film, or mabye you want it to look like somthing everyone can picture seeing on tv.

Ash Greyson July 17th, 2005 09:00 PM

You can mix it all you want... it wont really matter. I do it all the time, like I said, it is NOT best for film out or PAL transfer.



ash =o)

Lucinda Luvaas July 18th, 2005 12:23 AM

Wes,

Are you saying that when you work in 30p you shouldn't use "lower field first?"

Lucinda

Patrick King July 18th, 2005 05:15 AM

Lucinda,

60i means 60 fields of imagery per second displayed as two separate horizontally striped fields and interlaced to create a full frame. You can choose Lower Field First or Upper Field First when working with interlaced video (its obvious when you've selected the wrong one).

30p means 30 frames of imagery per second displayed in full frames, one progressively after the other. You can't select Lower or Upper Field First working with progressive imagery.

Wes Coughlin July 19th, 2005 05:02 PM

I would not recommend mixing 60i with 30p, because when you export you want 30p to be in "no fields" (progressive) and 60i to be lower field first.
Video is magical, becuase you can choose what ever you want. Mabye you want the hot rode video to look like it was shot on film, or mabye you want it to look like somthing everyone can picture seeing on tv.[/QUOTE]

If it was confusing; i ment to say you usaully export the lower field first in 60i; also its ok to mix and match 60i and 30p as long as you deinterlace the 60i and then combind it with 30p again. These are just my helpful tips; anyone can do anything they like, as long as they like their results.

Ash Greyson July 19th, 2005 05:08 PM

Correct, you may have to fiddle with the settings when mixing framerates... same is true when you use a high shutter...


ash =o)

Forbes Hansen August 2nd, 2005 11:16 PM

Im not quite sure but i have believed that you want to shoot in 60i and have something like Final Cut HD to convert it to HD. Otherwise it wont work

Cory Bauer August 3rd, 2005 01:32 PM

Can I playback 24p XL2 Footage anywhere?
 
Hey All,

This has probably been asked many times, but I searched and couldn't find an answer. I'm wondering if it's necessary to playback 24p 16:9 footage shot on the Canon XL2 in the camera itself during capture (Final Cut Pro 5), or if it can be played back and captured from any DV camera or deck, namely a Sony DSR-250. I'm looking to rent the Canon XL2 to shoot some 16:9 24p footage, and am wondering if I need to rent the camera long enough to do my capturing also, or if I'll be able to use our Sony DV camera for that purpose. Thanks!


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