What could canon add to the XL-H2
 

I'm sorry for starting this, but it seems like canon is offering discounts and I wanted to get together all of the requests for the xl-h2, people seem to want it but I for one am not sure what could be offered.

1) HD-SDI with time code and audio embedded (this is a given)

2) Image flip everywhere not just the viewfinder

3) Some sort of internal hard drive recording option, I think expresscard 34 would work well with the form factor, pop a few in the back, I think it would work (file size) similarly to the fire store, but with interchangeability of the hvx. Don't know who would want it though.

This is all I have, which makes me wonder why canon would release a new version of the xl-h series. It's at about 2 years and there revision cycle is around 3, that coupled with the canon guys telling me that there wasn't much in the pipeline for the xl-h1 makes me think that after the promo period there may just be a price drop.

Does anyone else have suggestions? Comments?

50p/60p PAL NTSC switchable, with better codec alow uncompressed audio.
alkim.

I doubt the codec will change anytime soon, we're pretty much stuck with HDV for a while - unless of course it is tapeless, adopts a whole new codec, and etc...

Personally, I would opt for an improved image in the finder.. I imagine small LCDs have improved considerably in the 2 years since the H1's introduction - that has been my biggest complaint about the camera...

Even though I don't use my H1 any more (it's for sale actually) I still think it's the best of the breed, and any improvement will be icing on a pretty good cake...

I'd like to see a better viewfinder. B/W or color...doesn't matter...just better resolution.

Downcovert output options from the BNC/RCA analog output. Centerpunch 4x3 or letterbox 4x3. The A1 does this...

20x lens with iris ring ON the lens...like the 6x.

Standard strap holders on the handle...so a Portabrace strap can be attached. Those small "slits" are great for a little consumer strap...but can't be easily accomodated to a professional strap.

1. Top of the list is a better viewfinder. After using the color LCD on the Sony EX1, the Canon's looks like once that can never look focused at all. The Sony has a 1920x480 LCD and it is a marvel for focusing. (I've actually sent some requests about making a hi-res color viewfinder to Canon ... let's see what they do ... Maybe I'll talk to their rep next time he's at B&H)

2. 1/2" 1920x1080 chips similar to the Sony EX1. True Progressive CCD or CMOS (although the F modes work quite well, indistinguishable from 24P, the P would just allow for no resolution loss)...

3. Embedded HD-SDI out ( a given as Nick pointed out). Or to be pompous and elitist, have dual-HD-SDI out to record to HDCAM SR or a 4:4:4 capable codec.

4. Canon to come out with an all-optical 35mm adapter similar to what JVC did for their camera.

I'm sure I'll have more when I can think of it.

If they switch to half-inch chips, then it's no longer an XL, plus all of the current XL lenses wouldn't be compatible. Anything can happen, but I'm willing to bet that they stick with third-inch chips to insure backward compatibility with the existing XL line of lenses.

Well, if Canon switches to 1/2" CMOS like the Sony EX1, one thing they might try with the XL-mount line would be to add a crop-factor option in the menu, pretty much like Nikon did with it's D3 DSLR.

On the new D3, a full-frame DSLR, you can still use DX (smaller and lighter lenses designed for the APS-C small-CCD format many digital cams use), but you won't have the 12 mpix resolution the D3 can offer because the lens will only crop to a smaller portion of the CMOS. So all in all, you can use full-frame or DX lenses on the D3, but there's a rather major drawback to using the later.

So, if Canon gets its XL-H2 to a 1/2" CMOS instead of 1/3" and they decide that it will support XL-mounts, chances are that our lenses will still be used (I'm crossing my fingers here), albeith with a crop factor that would result in a small resolution loss plus a zoom-in factor. I personnally sure hope they don't flush down the XL-mount, 'cuz its what made me go with Canon for a while, but hey, what do I know about marketing? I'm just a consumer! :-)

As for what I'd like on the XL-H2, I'd really love a tapeless solution like the EX1, that would be awesome!

Gabe

Tapeless and, along with that, a departure from HDV. Uncompressed audio, non-mpeg, non-GOP, 4:2:2, etc.

All manual lens!

As Dale Said An HD lens which allows you to zoom and focus at the same time. Iris ring has been mentioned. Better viewfinder has been mentioned. More steps in Custom presets (ala XHA1 XHG1) Separate Auto gain for audio tracks 1 + 2 so you could run a camera mic in Auto and a Radio mic in Manual
Option to record HDV 24P like the HV20.

XLRs that are independently switchable as mic/line, and the ability to use the on-board mic and an external mic simultaneously would make this a more viable camera.

oh...I forgot another one...since the mic was mentioned..

Give us an XLR on-board mic...not one with th elittle consumer dual mini plugs.

On top of all the other additions...a P2 slot. :P

- Kyle

LOL ... a P2 slot that records HDV to the card ...

That's like slapping Panasonic in the face :P

"If they switch to half-inch chips, then it's no longer an XL, plus all of the current XL lenses wouldn't be compatible. Anything can happen, but I'm willing to bet that they stick with third-inch chips to insure backward compatibility with the existing XL line of lenses."

Chris I'm inclined to agree with you on that with the exception that they have that flashing "non compatable lens" light pop up when ever you drop one of the legacy xl lenses on, I think maybe having that crop factor consideration would be a good option. I would love for canon to release an all optical 35 adapter though (even spoke to them about for a bit) Additionally the conversion out of the SD slot should be switchable, had completely forgotten about that. Seems like that could be a firmware update as well.

As far as 50p and 60p I can't say that I would have much use for it, which isn't to say it shouldn't be done, I just personally wouldn't use it. The p2/expresscard thing would be pretty sweet if it was recording as .mov or editable format (without the long GOF format) so that you could then have an invtervalometer option on the camera, that would be pretty sweet.

Hey Nick, not to split hairs but the warning that flashes in the EVF just says "HD Incompatible Lens" and goes away after a few seconds... and only when recording in HD mode.

Just saying, it's okay to dream big but I'm willing to bet that they stick with third-inch in order to keep the XL line, and P2, no way, the only P2 camcorders will be made by Panasonic. Sure would love to see tapeless though, as in AVC Intra. Or keep the tape transport but offer dual recording to flash memory... the SD card slot is already on the camera.

Plus...
 

A 1/4" jack for headphones...
Sorry if repeated - I did have a quick squint - maybe I squinted too tight....

I am also inclined to believe this as well as a top priority (with good reason for Canon would be to have all their XL accessories compatible.

But I'm sure that with the Sony making the move to 1/2" chips in a camera that costs less will make them have to respond in a similar (if not better) fashion sooner or later. Just like anything else, technology keeps getting better and better, and they will have to adopt to stay competitive. I'm sure if Panasonic reponds with a 1/2" camcorder, Canon be forced to find a way to make 1/2" chips work with their current line.

Interesting what competition can do ...

OK chris fair enough, maybe they'll switch to a half inch but if you try to put a legacy lens on it'll say 1/2" incompatible lens" ;)

I do like the idea for a 1/4 inch jack though and I think if they went to something similar to a p2 card like expresscard 34 which would be the same only faster smaller and better... they wouldn't begin to tread in panasonics turf.

What about half-inch body with a standard (not XL) mount to interface with the lenses Canon Broadcast is making for JVC Pro HD and Sony XDCAM? At this point it's no longer XL, but would you still be interested?

Personally, I think that would be cool, Chris. In fact, it would be great because a standard 1/2 mount would allow for a lot more lens options, AFAIK.

That would be a nice idea Chris, but I think that plus an optional (or given with the body, why not?) XL to standard adapter to fit XL mount lenses could still be workable at that point!

That way, XL users that don't want to part with their lens and only want a new cam body (I think that was one of the main reason why the XL mount was created) could still fit their older lenses (with the kind of menu resolution-switching I was talking about earlier). And those who could afford (or already own) standaard broadcast-type lenses would also be happy since they could fit their toys on a lighter cam body!

Looks like a win-win situation for me if CMOS size becomes the next 3B (Battle Between Brands)!

Gabe

Would be nice to keep the XL size as a possible 1/2 or 2/3 "XXL" version as the XL size,
and to that a possible XXL style 20x lens with OIS and AF as standard,
and the option to the regular HD/ ENG lenses.

Canon needs maybe to keep up with the competition with their "flagship" camcorder and move towards
the 1/2 club that will come...It feels the 1/3 HDV was before the HD really take/ took off.
So maybe we se an Canon "XXL" version as their flagship with 1/2 and the XHG/A2 will deal with the 1/3.
Everything will be bigger.

It´s a very interesting time now, and take for example the RED that have really
put everything upside down and put serious pressure on the competition
and jump many years a head even for Arri and Panavision.

How about they discontinue the XL line altogether and start a new XZ line?

Basically a 1/2" CCD or CMOS Progressive camera with a 35mm relay/adapter system built "in the body" with either a PL mount (or a brand new Canon series of 35mm style lenses and a new XZ mount).

It would record AVC Intra full raster 1080P to memory cards, plus full spec HD-SDI output.

It would offer a newer body style (no more chain-saw body). Aesthetically, however, it can still offer notable Canon touches like the famed rotatory switch, XLR rear inputs, and black and red cosmetic touches.

;)

Robert,

Now THAT is an AWESOME.... dream!

If only that would happen....

LOL! Yup. And it would probably retail for $12,999 and the lenses would be introduced 12 months after that.

Still, I love my Canon cameras. They make great products. Just last to market.

I also would like to see Canon offer 1/2" chips in their flagship camera. Back in 1991 I bought my first camera, the Canon L1 in Hi8 and if I remember correctly it had a single 1/2" chip which was great for low light. I used this camera for 6 years in my spare time to shoot my first film Encountering Wildlife in the Canadian Rockies, thus my wildlife video business has taken off from there.

I hope Canon will also move the tape eject switch or put a cover over it as from time to time my gloved hand bumps it and ejects the tape when I'm setting up for a shot.

Leon Lorenz
www.wildlifevideos.ca

I truly like many of the "wish list" ideas that have been posted in this thread.

But I guess I'll go out on a limb. I realize I might get "castrated" for what I'm about to suggest...but here goes...

Take many of the suggestions and put them into a camera body or bodies that would do the following:

A larger version of a new Canon HD camera that is similar to the XDcam...large format. Large camera, big buttons...big lenses...and truly a great usable camera for large scale productions.

THEN...also make a smaller version that compliments this camera. A "little brother". (ie Sony XDCAM EX). A great portable, small camera with all the complimenting features of the larger version. You can then decide which camera to use for what type of job.

I truly have to tell you that XDCAM in the large format and the EX are cameras we're strongly considering in the next year.

I have been a big fan of the H1...never liking any of the previous XL cameras from Canon. I would like to see them get away from the "unusual" and uncomfortable camera body design.

I'm willing to stay with Canon...we've made money with their camera, love how it looks and LOVE the cost. I hope they are smart enough to look at a great forum like this and try to take ideas from all of us who make a living with their technology and make good decisions.

Okay...now you can all begin shooting !!!! :)

Man I can't believe I'm going to say this but I think that canon probably shouldn't go the big camera route. I just don't see any market for it, It would probably be more expensive then the h1 and then you're getting into xdcam territory and it would involve a complete shift in design and a complete strategy shift. Canon has never really entered into the professional video cam world I can't imagine why they would want to at such a volatile time, especially given the current saturation of cams.

I would imagine a crossover camera that had a 35mm plane so that you could put all of your ef series lenses without introducing the 7.2x magnification. Basically combine an h1 with a 40d or something along those lines. There would be no need to introduce anymore xl series lenses (or ok, wait on anymore xl series lenses to be introduced) you could have it be a hybrid that would take high megapixel stills or hd video. I mean honestly there not that far away right now it's just getting past the concept of a shutter and recording the live viewfinder that's available on many of these cams now.

I don't however think canon will do any of this. If they would just introduce an 35mm ef adapter that has the same characteristics as the JVC 35mm adapter, that would be super awesome. If canon put it out (instead of someone like p+s) they could offer a firmware upgrade card with it, like they did with 6x which would allow you to flip the image everywhere, not just in the viewfinder. That's my wish/dream more then anything else that an xlh2 would offer. It doesn't seem like it would be that difficult either.

I guess you combine that with "true 24p" or whatever you want to call it, how about just the same chips as the hv-20 only 1/3 inch and you've got the only things I'd use to shoot movies for another 3 years. (of course then I'd build up a huge collection of canon glass that I'd have to get rid of when they offered whatever new mount that would offer...

I second that motion:

It's about time someone made a camcorder or small shoulder-mount camera with BUILT IN 35mm adaptor and a standard 35mm SLR mount such as Nikon or Canon.
ALL of the problems of proper collimation and alignment would be eliminated by virtue of all of the optics from the 35mm ground glass through to the imaging sensor itself being PERMANENTLY and solidly mounted and calibrated by top-notch Canon or Panny or Sony factory robots.
Who knows, there might even be a small gain in f-stop performance compared to current third-party adaptors!

Yes, great idea!

They could even go with the APS (like the 40D) format if they do not want to compete directly with 35mm adapters.

IMHO I think larger sensors is the only way to the future. And is the 3CCD technique the right way..?

Otherwise a increase of the resolution and overcrank possibilties or up to 60-100 fps (progressive) should come in handy.

4 things that will make this a top seller!

1. 3 1/2" ccd chips (increase low light, lattitude and DOF)
2. 4:2:2 at 1920x1080p using express cards
3. optional PL Mount film lens adapter (like the JVC HZ-CA13U)
4. in menu image flip

Share same kind of view as Jonas. I suspect Canon will go the CMOS sensors and introduce a camera which has the standard EF-mount and come up with some special solution for the wide angle end. Maybe they can exploit the new sensors of their EOS-bodies and run them at the rate of 24-30 fps. Have you seen (the SD) video footages from the new Canon IXUS cameras? (They are pretty amazing when put aside with old XL-1 and XL-1s footages.) All this may well suggest 3CCD is fading out.

The fact that Canon has not introduced new lenses to the XL series may also indicate it's coming to the end of line. CMOS-sensor makes the lenses cheaper, so perhaps Canon doesn't even have an alternative. Furthermore, I think HDV is already water under the bridge from the manufacturers point of view.

Also, if the camera recorded to drive and memory sticks, then 10-bit or 12-bit color would be a great bonus over the competition.

Manual Lens would be nice

You guys think small!

How 'bout a Canon 1DS that shoots 60fps and has xlr audio with no clipping?

Now we're talking!

Actually, I'd like a more balanced shoulder mount cam that takes standard ENG lenses. And records to SD cards and tape at the same time in different resolutions... the new Sony that takes tape and CF cards sounds like a great thing to me!

That would pretty much be called the REDONE. LOL!

But hey, Canon's got all the equipment and technology right there at their fingertips. If they wanted to build a RED competitor, they could. They only need to figure out how to move that much data around at those rates. If a team of a dozen or so uber-nerds in Irvine can figure it out, I'm sure Canon could too.

I hear you Chris, but FWIW, Canon amazingly listened very closely last time around when they asked for suggestions to upgrade the XL2. IF Canon checks those old posts, they will see that I suggested at that time Canon take two paths.

The first path I suggested back then was "evolutionary" upgrade and is the XL-H1 that is out now; 1/3rd inch chips, HDSDI out, timecode in/out, genlock and selectable viewfinder 'wireframe' aspect ratios, ability to
still able to work with Canon 35mm EOS lens and their EOS adapter.
(And yes I will take the credit for being the only guy asking for HDSDI, although I was called crazy by many.) The H1 has most everything I asked for with the exception of progressive CCDs and a great LCD, so . . .

I strongly believe the next step for Canon is the REVOLUTIONARY camera
I asked for back then. Essentially, they have been beaten to the market by Jim Jannard and Team Red, but Canon is a big time contender and I would love to see them in the 35mm glass competition.

Back then I asked for a single CMOS chip camcorder capable of using Canon 35 MM lens *natively*. I also asked for a high definition LCD or viewfinder (current H1 needs MUCH improvement!).

Two years ago I thought 1080P was a much resolution as I would ever need. After seeing the Peter Jackson short, I was mistaken. 4K is totally amazing.
If Canon's XL-SHD1 (super hi def) could output a variety of video formats including 4K RAW and 4:4:4 1080P, imbed audio and timecode in the stream HDSDI and get a real 1920x1200 pixel LCD, they would sell a lot of cameras and blow away the Sony EX1.

over/under-craking.

35mm eos mount similar to JVC's 16m mount.

better latitude with the images.

better LCD.

that's it :)

Will we see this for NAB
 

Anyone think we could see a possible NAB release? There doesn't seem to be much talk of this, but I can wish.

Also, I second Jonas' idea of shooting up to 100 fps progressive. How amazing would that be!