XL1 / XL1S focus hunting backfocus problems
 

XL1S Focus "Hunting"

My new XL1S appears to hunt Between the subject and background even in good lighting.

Anyone else experience issues with the auto-focus or should I venture to send it back or send to Canon for evaluation.

Robert, which program mode are you shooting in when this happens?
And please tell me it doesn't happen when you switch the AF off... thanks,

I've tried all of the modes outside of the "green" mode. Basically, the autofocus appears to keep shifting between the subject and background regardless of lighting conditions and subject matter (i.e., people, flowers, and other objects..)

I haven't experienced the problem in manual mode. (I will verify today as I'm shooting my son's soccer game....)

Robert,

If you have this recorded to tape, it's a big help. There's someone I'll call at Canon tomorrow (Monday) to check and see if your camera should go in to Service.

I'm leaving for Amsterdam for about 10 days on Tuesday, so I'll definitely be out of the loop but maybe we can get you started in the process of getting this solved.

Chris,

I appreciate your extra effort. I went and shot my son's soccer game today. I used the manual focus w/ the auto-focus button. This worked rather well (need practice). I still beleive that there may be an issue with the auto-focus in the Auto-focus Mode. I would think that a camera at this level would perform better. Where do you wish for me to send the tape? I could also make a Quicktime Movie/RealMedia Movie and post it on our site.

Robert

Robert,

If you have a tape showing the autofocus hunting in various, well-lit situations, then you may have a case. Let me me a call tomorrow and I'll get back to you...

Focus Problem with XL1s
 

I have the following focus problem with the XL1s.

If I put it on "M" setting and I have a book spine 7 inches from the
lens and another book spine 10 feet behind that and I want the
book spine ten feet behind to be in focus I focus on that manually but
then within a few seconds the camera refocuses -- even though I have
it on "M" setting -- to the book spine 7 inches away and the one 10 feet behind
is blurred. Why can't it hold its focus? Did I get a defective camera?

Thanks!

AF/M Switch On Lens
 

I just noticed I was not using the AF/M switch on the lens. If
I switch it to M the Manual focus works fine. I was just setting the
dial to M but not the AF/M switch.

Hi John,

Yeah, I was wondering what you meant when you said you "had it switched to M" -- the camera or the lens.

This is not a slam against you, not at all, but in my experience, most of those who encounter focus problems usually get them as a result of pilot error.

For instance, here's a common one: the lens is switched to manual focus, but somehow the autofocus is still on. Can you think of a very simple, often overlooked answer as to why this would happen?

;-)

In answer to Chris' quizz: If the camera is switched to Green Square Mode?
Can we have a contest "XL-1" knowledge ?

Quite correct, Dan -- that is the answer I had in mind.

A contest would be fun, but I have no idea what can be awarded for prizes... thank you for playing,

;-)

Focus problem thingy
 

I'm having problems with the picture going in and out of focus during low light shoots. Is there a way to stop it? Please help meeeeeeeeeeee.

Switch to Manual. The auto focus needs something like 50lux(measurement of available light) to work. In less than that it hunts as you have found. So switch the lens to manual focus and the camera to something other than Green Box mode for low light shooting.

Ahhhhh.... Cool Beans. Thanks!
 

Nothing in here.

Once you switch to manual focus, zoom all the way in on the farthest object from you. Press the "Push AF" button the side of the lens to set focus (you need *some* light for this). This is called "setting critical focus."

Zoom back out, and everything should stay in focus from here.

XL1 Focus Probs with Picture link...
 

Well, the last few days I have been trying to figure out if it was just me or my new XL-1s that was having problems. I have shot the GL-1 for over a year and never had problems focusing against Canon autofocus lenses. Currently though, my new XL-1s is not doing so well - very soft under most situations. I assume if I can foucs the GL-1 with that little viewfinder I should be able to focus the new camera.

I have included a couple examples for reference, using my GL-1 and the XL-1s. PLEASE take a look and see if anyone has any thoughts. I assume that with the number of satisfied XL-1 users I know and have talked to that this is the exception and not the rule.

I will cut off here and wait for a few comments and see where this goes. I have seen a few other posts on this topic but never read any resolutions yet.

And don't get me started on the zoom servo noise the on camera mic picks up. Geez, how can they even expect people not to notice! Maybe the foucs and overly loud zoom motor noise are related and the lens is actually faulty. ????

I appreciate the help and really appreciate this site as a resource Thanks Chris. (Yeah, I am brown nosing to try and get more response :).

Will be calling Canon in the a.m. and will post any feedback.

http://www.azuho.com/waveform/camtest.html

Updated pictures and info...
 

Talked to Canon and was told to just send the unit in, and that the XL-1s should look much cleaner and sharper than the GL-1. I will most likely just send for a replacement unit from the dealer.

Still curious if anyone else has this problem or if I just got the unit that was worked on after the Halloween party.

Thanks again.

http://www.azuho.com/waveform/camtest.html

Hunting Focus XL1s
 

I know this has been discussed before, but I wanted to share my experience on the hunting focus problem.

I just bought 2 brand new XL1s camcorders and one of them exhibits the hunting focus problem. I tested both camcorders in two locations at the same time, thus in the same light as each other. One of them was perfect. The other kept hunting for the subject when I was zoomed in about 75%. It wasn't constantly out of focus. But it would drift often enough (at least once every 30-60 seconds) then come back to focus. Pretty hard on the eyes after a few minutes.

I swapped the lenses between the chasis and the problem stayed with the chasis. I also made sure the settings between the units were identical. And I remove the backup battery on the bad unit overnight so I could reset the settings back to factory default just in case I had set something wrong. But after configuring the date and time stuff, the unit still misbehaved.

I called Canon and spoke with their technical support. After explaining the problem and what I had done so far, he suggested that I visit my dealer and exhange it. I've called them and I will have a new unit tomorrow. Hopefully that unit works as wonderfully as the other.

Ron

Thats good Hope you didn't send them the good one back.
:)

Keep the standard lenses matched too, that should ensure a better back focus setting.

I exchanged my new XL1s (only 3 days old) with another new one, and the new one still exhibits the hunting focus. Since others have mentioned this behavior I guess I must just learn to use the manual focus more often. I'm very amature at all this, so it will be a learning curve. It's interesting though that my other XL1s seems to handle the auto focus much better than the other two XL1s's.

Dpalomaki, what do you mean by keeping the standard lenses matched?

I jokingly refer to the "autofocus" mechanism as the "out of focus" mechanism. It's one of the things I'll turn off and never (ever) turn back on. That goes for auto exposure and automatic gain as well.

With a camera like the XL1 you'll get the best results when you work it as a manual camera, thus avoiding wandering planes of focus or unexpected changes in exposure.

"autofocus" / "out of focus" - that's funny. I'll take your advice. I agree that manually taking control of the settings will be the best decision. I just have to learn a ton of stuff since I've never done any video stuff before.

Thanks.

By keep lens and body matched I mean that you can expect best focus results if you keep the body matched to the lens that came with it. This is because the backfocus settings are based on a specific lens-body combination and could be slightly differnt with a diferent combination.

For satisfactory performance auto focus requires about 50 lux light level (the XL1 spec) and contrasting vertical edges inthe image. Subject with low contrast or only horizontal wedge (venetian blinds) do not auto focus well.

Soft (unsharp) focus in XL 1S ??
 

Hello everyone,

I've had my XL1S under a month and have noticed it simply can't acquire sharp focus...it is very noticeable at the far reaches of it's zoom range- is this typical of the XL1S? I am somewhat dissatisfied at this point as I have spent a considerable amount of time at the park today videotaping a local NYC red-tail hawk and didn't get sharp images at all. I tried using the AF and manual and neither would give a sharp image- this is most troublesome- can anyone tell me if there's something that can be done to improve picture sharpness? ( I was using Tv mode at 1/250th second to help with flight blur- tried both IS on & off- nothing seems to improve)
My photography with a Kodak DCS620 (Nikon F5 digital) of these local red-tail hawks has led to my becoming chosen by the NYC parks Dept for a "Hawk Festival" of which I volunteered "video" as well as photos to be showcased- I'm afraid now the video wont be up to par with the photography....

...bummed out.

(if this is typical XL1S video quality- anyone wanna buy a 1 month old XL1S??)

Steve Nunez
Macintosh G4
Final Cut Pro/Commotion DV/Canon XL 1S
stevenyc1@aol.com

Hi Steve,

I don't know about the "S", but it certainly is typical of the standard lens that came on the XL1.

I struggled with focus problems for a while (much of my video is nature related as well), then picked up the new 16X manual lens.

Problem solved.

While it might be impractical (i.e. costly) after just buying a new camera, I bet the manual lens would be a big improvement.

Mike Avery

Thanks Mike,

Do you think the EF adapter with a Canon EF lens would yeild better results-- I need to be far away from the hawks to catch their natural behaviour- (ideally 150 feet or so) and am desperately trying to capture good flight footage....

The standard lens seems to do fine at up to about 75% of it's total focal range- but when reaching far out- the lens goes soft- usually an indicator of low quality optics as per photo glass (colors are becoming desaturated as well)....why couldn't Canon put a top quality lens on the XL1S- the GL has a great lens with Flourite- why not do the same for the XL?

I'm always amazed when watching the "Big Cat Diary" on Animal Planet when scenes are shown with the guys and their jeep-top mounted cameras and their superior images at amazingly far distances to the big cats- was hoping I could get decent results with the XL as well ( I know some of you are gonna say- "yeah well those cams cost in excess of $50,000"- just making an observation )

..thanks for any hints- tips or comments anyone can contribute.

It's not so much the XL-1 as the glass you put in front of it. Slap a 600 mm lens on it and you'll be amazed at the clarity and range of sharpness.

I realize you'll have to mortgage your home to buy one...but there's always rental.

..I've read Chris' page on "Softness with the XL" and am sure I had tried a complete range of aperature settings- will try again the next 45 degree + day......hopefully an increase in aperature will help ale my soft images....f5.6-8 seems to be the "sweet" spot for XL1S IS lens...stay tuned.

(I'm hoping this will work-)

Z, Mike, others:

But what about Steve's question about the EF adapater. Is that a viable alternative to either the 16x Standard or 16X Manual lens? Is it viable to forgo either of those lenses, sink the money into the adpater and just buy the Canon EOS lenses?

What would be the tradeoff to doing so (I don't own a camcorder yet, but am hoping to get the XL1S -- I was planning on the 16x Manual)

Thanks!

Steve,
I haven't had much of a chance to shoot wildlife with my XL1 or XL1s (not even a rave party <g>) but I understand your problem with critical focus drift, especially with a zoomed-out AF situation.

Mike's "bet" is likely on the mark. I use the 14x full manual lens for all standard work where focus is critical. It's still available for approx. $1000. I haven't tried the newer 16x manual lens (with servo-zoom option).

I also use the Fujinon B&W viewfinder for all shoots where focus / d.o.f. will be critical. Yes, it's a rather expensive bugger and can suck power like an ex-Enron exec but the increased resolution over the color lcd vf makes a very significant difference.

I wouldn't give up on your XL1s for wildlife shooting yet. Being in NYC perhaps you can rent the manual lens and b&w head to take them out for a test shoot to see if they make a difference in your work.

I'm curious.

Are you bumping the preset sharpness up a ways?

I feel that "out of the box," the XL1S is great for interviews (soft), but once you're at +3 or so, things get pretty nice. If you are not adding any gain, I think you can bump it up pretty high without too many problems.

The same goes for preset color saturation. If you feel it's muted, try adding a little extra.

FYI I use the longer end of the zoom as well as with the 1.6x. I generally use manual focus and hit the AF now button. This may or may not be your best bet for wildlife, as AF will hunt.

<<...suck power like an ex-Enron exec...>>

LOL!

For normal event videography, the EOS adapter is not a viable alternative to the standard 16x lens. This is because the EOS adapter multiplies the focal length of any EOS lens by a factor of 7.2. There's no way you can get wide with it. Even the widest EOS lens becomes extreme telephoto on the XL1/XL1S. The EOS adapter is best suited for wildlife videography. You'll need an IS lens (optical image stabilization) for this purpose.

If you're not happy with the standard 16x lens, the next best option is the new 16x manual lens, especially when you consider that remote zoom and focus control, so critical to good videography, is readily available for this lens (and not for the EOS option). Hope this helps,

16x and extender
 

I seem to remember reading in Canon literature that the new manual lens works with the extender- 26x or so I'd guess. Worth checking out.

<<<I also use the Fujinon B&W viewfinder for all shoots where focus / d.o.f. will be critical. Yes, it's a rather expensive bugger and can suck power like an ex-Enron exec but the increased resolution over the color lcd vf makes a very significant difference.>>>

Hi Ken,

Which batteries do you use with B&W viewfinder, and how long do they last? I realize that auto zoom and auto-focus will affect battery life, as well. . . just trying to get a general idea about VF. I'm thinking about getting XL1S w/ B&W VF and am wondering what I'd have to do about batteries.

Thanks,
Kat

Kat,

I've been using the Canon BP945 high-capacity batteris with pretty good luck. I have the dual battery holder but haven't really used it yet. I don't think I've run one completely dry yet, but I've come close. In general I can (conservatively) count on at least 2.25 hrs. when using the 14x manual lens (which consumes virtually no power, since it has no power zoom or iris servos) and perhaps 2 hrs when using the 16x or 3x lenses.

One thing you should note about the b&w viewfinder is that it confounds the battery monitor/meter. For some reason because the b&w head connects to the cam's battery slot you won't see a "remaining capacity" indicator in the viewfinder until the battery is nearly drained, if at all. This is a documented "feature" of the b&w head but I really think it's too bad. This is something that is not really mentioned very often during talk of the b&w vf.

I have not ventured into any of the other batteries (such as the Lenmar) yet but am planning to do so.

Hi Ken,

That's encouraging. I was afraid I'd have to use the dual-battery charger, which seems so bulky. Thanks for the warning about lack of VF info about state of battery. Will have to keep an eye on my watch!

Best,
Kat

Back Focus re-visited
 

A partner I work with frequently purchased an XL1 about a year ago. He comes from a still photography background and is meticulous and critical in approach. He chose the XL1 because of its aesthetics and ergonomics. It’s much more a “photographers tool” than the VX1000. I do some of the shooting, and all the post on our projects. We’ve shot hundreds of hours and completed many projects over the past year and the issue of “soft focus” never really came up. The footage looked great. We shoot a lot of industrial/corporate work for the construction industry – mostly exterior job sites but with some indoor venues as well. I had heard of “focus problems” with the camera but assumed it referred only to the focus “jump” – annoying but not insurmountable.

We recently started work on a project that involves taping interviews with hundreds of individuals in one remote location, We created a “limbo” black background and use basic 3 point lighting – key, fill, and back – with 1K Ianero’s. We shoot manual exposure and focus and are about 6-8 feet from the subject with Canon’s 16X auto lens. Shot composition varies from MS to CU. Suddenly the “soft focus” issue was huge. We weren’t satisfied with the image when zoomed out to a MS. The image is SOFT!. Immediately purchased the Canon 16X manual and used for the first time a couple of days ago. It seems to have solved the problem but will reserve judgment until I take material into post and observe on Sony broadcast monitor. So how come we didn’t notice till now? I’m not sure but think it must have to do with nature of shot – the limbo background forces attention to the subject. I looked back at some older footage – with a more critical eye – and thought it too might have been a little soft but not so obviously.
Read Chris Hurd’s article concerning differences of opinion and this may shed a little light.

Regarding my experience with back focus. I think it was a more prevalent issue in the “old days” – I’ve been at this for over 25 years. Used to do an in-studio shoot with massive Ampex 1000? 3 tube plumbicon cameras. Neville, the engineer, used to wheel them to an outside door (studio wasn’t large enough to achieve “infinity focus” ) and use a tree about ½ mile away for back focus adjustment. Zoom in tight on the tree branches, zoom to widest shot and then adjust the POSITION OF THE YOKE holding the 3 tubes. (moving it closer or further from the last piece of glass in the lens) One article on this site – written by Per Sverre Wold-Hanson – refers to “professional” lenses provision for back focus adjustment. The Canon16X manual is the first lens I’ve encountered that has such a provision. I’ve always assumed back focus was always achieved as on my old Ampex cameras. I’ve also assumed that the move to CCD pickup devices (vs. tubes) has virtually eliminated back focus adjustments. The older systems were much more susceptible to environmental, manufacturing, etc. fluctuations.

I would find it hard to believe that this issue is related to back focus. Even harder to believe that it affects many, but not all, XL1’s. If it’s a problem with back focus, retool at the factory and adjust the distance from back glass to pickup chips. If it’s not back focus what is it? The Canon 16X automatic lens has phenomenal stabilization capabilities. As I understand it, the lens incorporates some kind of “floating” element. “Floating element”….”soft image”……hmmmmmm

The same occured to me yesterday. Even the setup is similiar. I am shooting a dialogue on a table in a living room with a blank and bright wall as background. I used the rooms TV set as control monitor (a completely new 82cm 16:9 Philips) via the S-VHS connection while I tried to set up my lights (see thread "lighting struggle"). The camera itself was on a tripod and never moved.

What happened was:

I turned on the camera in GREEN MODE (full auto) and the picture was perfectly sharp and whitebalanced. We were surprised that it looked that good on the big screen even with the lights in the wrong places.

Switched to M (full manual mode) and to manual focus and manually whitebalanced:

The whitebalance:
The image got really yellowish compared to the pure white I got with auto-balancing. I don´t think I made a mistake when I balanced it manually: I used a sheet of paper (ca. 40x50cm), zoomed in at it so it filled frame and pushed the balancing button.
I switched to Auto-balancing again, because the quality was much better than one I got from manual.

Manual focus:
The image got soft (at the border between being super-super-soft and out of focus) when I turned the mode-wheel. Does the lens do anything when I switch modes and don´t move anything on the set? I pressed the push-AF button, but the focus did not get better. It did not change at all. Then I had someone sit at that table and hold a big piece of cardboard with lots of vertical lines on it. Pressed the button again. No change. Still out of focus. Then I turned the servo-wheel on the lens itself. This worked. The image turned crystal clear. The problem is just that I had to judge the focus by eye. Without distance markings on the lens this is a little of a lottery to set it rightly.

Normally I would think, something in the frame distracts the camera from setting it perfectly, like mixed colors or it can´t get a grip onto something to focus on. But it works perfectly in GREEN MODE. How come it loses all in manual mode?

Wait, this comes to my mind right now... Does frame mode and 16:9 work in GREEN MODE or are they ignored? I am not sure now. I had both of them activated, maybe those come into play when I switch to manual mode and mess things up?

Which settings did you use, Sweeper?

Cheers,