CineForm and Premiere Pro CS3 / After Effects

[Douglas Turner]

Thanks for all your work, Peter.

I've d/l'd CS3... I only copied the Cineform Presets folder over, and attempted to open one of my PPRO2 project. I'll try your suggestions tonight.

On my initial test, it started conforming all the audio files again! Got cold feet and cancelled it!

Will copy the folder with the conformed audio across from the PPRO2 project, see if that saves me a couple of hours of conforming (someone remind me why Premiere insists on doing this, and Vegas doesn't!).

I have 50 scenes (approx 30mins) from a 1/3 of a film I'm editing my on one timeline, approx 20hrs of footage (1080 50i), a few stills but nothing fancy.

Deinterlacing using Boris Continuum Complete 4 Deinterlace, colour-correcting with Magic Bullet Colorista and grading using Magic Bullet Suite. Project file size is around 60MB.

I kinda resent having to pay for either/both Premiere Pro upgrade and Aspect HD upgrade when the current workflow just ain't working for a reasonably simple project.

Hopefully our Beta testing of CS3 will prove that it's not just a PPRO2 bug-fix with a time re-mapping plug-in! But I'm not holding my breath.

[Peter Ferling]

Thanks guys, we need more examples other than mine.

Douglas, I think you'll need to ensure that the edit modes.xlm file is copied over, otherwise it'll default to a desktop project and use vfw, and it conforms.

I'm using prospect, which is 1920x1080i, and captures HDV and scales to 1920x1080i. I'm not sure about Aspect, and how it's addressed by PPro3 with HDV (ala 1440 rez) being disabled. That may simply not accept 1440 anything and just default back to desktop vfw anyway.

Uhm, put it anotherway, (If I remember this correctly). Whenever I capture to a prospect edit mode, it always scales up the media to 1920 and I don't get conforming and renderlines. If I import anything other than a 1920 or non-cineform, it conforms that file. So it would be interesting to know how PPro3 deals with Aspect 1440 even though it's not HDV.

Other than one very troublesome project, which I think is PPro issue, several other projects that I either imported, opened up with, or started in PPro3 have not exhibited any of past issues. There are things going on under the hood then. The only deal maker is that I'll have to use PPro3 for my next big project, which will gradually build and see what happens.

Otherwise, it's already useful in terms of cineform and short projects, even as a beta. It's just that you'll have to export a CFHD and use the usual third party tools to make a decent DVD. That's the other half of the problem (will an embedded encore engine save the day?). We won't find out until someone shells out the bucks, crosses their fingers and hits the render button.

[Brad Tyrrell]

I see the light...

Opened a Cineform project in PP3 and it didn't crash when color correcting!!

I have hope.

[Peter Ferling]

Another soul cured by cineform therapy!

[Peter Ferling]

Hello world. I've just finished my first full-blown cineform project in PPro3 preview. Not a critical or high value project, but an internal one. A 55 minute sales event for training purposes.

My project specs and requirements:

55 minute video of 10 parts or scenes
720p 8bit, high quality HD Prospect workflow (progressive capture and convert from HDV)
Publish to DVD (build within Encore 2)
Complete with motion menu's and transitions.

Cutting to the chase, the only issue I ran across was that after initial capture, cineform quit encoding about twenty minutes in to the media. Even HDLink failed, capturing only 2minutes of material. Funny enough, PPro2 captured and encoded flawlessly.

I was able to import the media into PPro3 Prospect 720p project and edit as usual. I added a timecode filter, two layers of titles and a graphic layer for logo. I also changed levels and did some basic CC. Then rendered the 55minute timeline. I am happy to say that for the first time since PPro 1.5.1, I've been able to render off the entire piece in one shot (over a two-hour period). I went to lunch, came back and was pleased to see it still working. For some of you, including me, rendering a four-layer sequence that's longer than ten-minutes without lockup, crash, or having to re-do the encoded media files was a blessing.

There are some little unknown changes (if I understand them correctly). One being that mpeg previews are run off the timeline and handled (in the background) by the encore engine. It's not a dynamic link as with AE, it's just using the encore engine.

Some old legacy plugins have been removed (i.e. the "greenscreen") and replaced by AE originated plugins.

Timelines are different somehow. If you open a PPro2 project with active timelines, they come up empty in PPro3. Double-clicking the sequences in the bin, reopens new timelines. I speculate much has been done to the core and how memory is handled.

The code now uses all processor cores/threads. Some users think it's a bug! (I can't play call of duty2 during renders anymore! Wah! :)

PPro3 is expected to handle AVCHD when released.

HDV indexing will be handled on the fly, during capture, rather than as a post process.

Since you can't test, edit, or mess with anything HDV (ala mpeg), the beta preview is useless for HD work, unless you have cineform :) Now, I'm being careful here, and I have to back this up with more projects. In light of my PPro2 issues, I may as well keeping working with PPro3 until it's release!

What remains to be seen is just how much better PPro3 will handle HDV in it's native format. Regardless, with cineform, it's no longer a concern for me.

[Brad Tyrrell]

Looking good Peter

Really hoping to simplify my workflow on PPCS3 release but so far this is working fine. (Fingers crossed again)

Xh-A1 -> HDVSplit (Low end laptop) -> MPEGStreamclip (fix timecodes only) -> HDlink (AspectHD) -> PPCS3 -> DebugMode frameserve -> Tmpgenc Express (resize & compress) -> Encore2 -> SD DVD Image File (ISO) -> Primera duplicator -> Very nice SD DVDs

[Douglas Turner]

Interesting, Peter.

I could well find myself finishing editing my film using the FREE PPROCS3 rather than the rather tedious and expensive journey called Prem 6,6.5,Pro1.5,Pro2 :(

I'll do me some testing tonight. I have 6 x 20 min projects which is actually just one movie (split out as it would constantly grind to a halt in PPRO2) - so I'll rejoin them back and see how PPROCS3 handles a movie-length project with Deinterlacing/Colour Correcting/MB Looks on every clip!

I did notice though that in my PPROCS3 timeline that some standard PAL DV clips in my 1080 50i CFHD project were marked as 'Offline' (it's CCTV footage) - I might have to re-import them I guess...

I DO like the look of DebugMode Frameserve - tried it the other day. Cuts down on HDD usage - does it have any other benefits? (Is Framserve equivalent of using lossless?).

So, it looks like Adobe have fixed their memory leak bugs, and are charging us $300 for the privilege.

[Brad Tyrrell]

Originally Posted by Douglas Turner

I DO like the look of DebugMode Frameserve - tried it the other day. Cuts down on HDD usage - does it have any other benefits? (Is Framserve equivalent of using lossless?).

I haven't seen any loss, although on the Debugmode site there is a mention of slightly lower color sampling. I keep trying to notice.

They say use the YUV export from Premiere and I do.

[Peter Ferling]

Originally Posted by Brad Tyrrell

Looking good Peter

Really hoping to simplify my workflow on PPCS3 release but so far this is working fine. (Fingers crossed again)

Xh-A1 -> HDVSplit (Low end laptop) -> MPEGStreamclip (fix timecodes only) -> HDlink (AspectHD) -> PPCS3 -> DebugMode frameserve -> Tmpgenc Express (resize & compress) -> Encore2 -> SD DVD Image File (ISO) -> Primera duplicator -> Very nice SD DVDs

Brad, I haven't gone quite that far, as this project is an internal review job, and so a 480 progressive encode from 720p source is good enough.

Let's hope that handing off the transcoding chore from PPro to encore reduces some of those steps. I wish the folks at Adobe are listening/reading and understand how beneficial it would be to just add custom filters to their encoder. Then we wouldn't have to resort to 'freeware'. DVinfo forum is riddled with cookbooks on using third party tools, (Vdub saved my bacon more than once).

Douglas, I know where you're coming from. It can't hurt to import your problem project into PPro3 and give it a shot. Let me know how it went.

[Douglas Turner]

OK - My first proper tests using PPROCS3 with my Aspect HD movie project.

Copied my MB and BCC plugins across to the CS3 directories, as well as:
Adobe Premiere Pro 2.0\Settings\en_US\CineForm
Adobe Premiere Pro 2.0\Plug-ins\en_US\CineForm
Adobe Premiere Pro 2.0\Plug-ins\en_US\Editing Modes\CineForm Editing Modes.xml

Opened PPRO2 project in PPROCS3 - saved to a new directory. Ensured all scratch disks were pointing to new (empty) directory.

On opening project it went ahead and conformed all the audio again (when you have thousands of clips it takes ages) - a pain in the proverbial, but at least it only does this once.

Project has one timeline, 1hr 11 mins long. Tried rendering out - this hung only a couple of mins in - couldn't handle the title sequence which is CFHD clip (slowed, Colorista and MB Looks) layered with 4 title clips, each with BCC burnt film. Not really a surprise as PPRO2 refused to render this unless I render each layered at a time.

So, ignoring that part of the timeline I attempted to render the rest - errored out "Error Compiling Movie" (nooooooo!) at a still in the timeline. Restarted PC and re-rendered just this part, and no complaints.

Don't bother running any other aps while PPROCS3 is open - the screen flickers badly... hmmm. I've not noticed this on PPRO2.

I guess the main reason rendering is a wee bit quicker is that it's able to hog more of the processor! It stays around the 80-98% mark while rendering. (most likely as I have dual core, and PPRO2 was only using one CPU? I'm guessing)

The useful Video and Audio Usage details for items in the Project Bins is not there - and you can't right-click on items in the Project view either - hmmm (Properties is still gettable from File->Properties->Selected).

My system is 4GB AMD X2 3800+ XP Pro SP2 NVidia 7900GS - so it's not a slouch... but it feels like one when editing with PPROCS3!

Have kicked off another, bigger render (not titles or stills) - so will report back once that's completed.

PS - Another gripe from PPRO2 hasn't been touched... the fact that you can't find the original location of an Offline file - so say you've mistakenly deleted or renamed a folder and now your 01 Track 01.wav is offline, and you have several 01 Track 01.wav in your foley database (as you do if you rip your sound libraries from audio CDs) - you're stuffed.

[Brad Tyrrell]

This is probably silly to mention, but since I knew better and still didn't do it...

A lot of my problems with Premiere (especially title sequences) disappeared with regular defrags.

I know you have to do it, every board reminds you, but I was annoyed at the inconvenience and kept putting it off. Now it's an overnight thing.

Undoubtedly not a factor here, but thought I'd bring it up anyway

[Douglas Turner]

Hmmm - just trying once more to render out that title sequence (first disabled the titles and rendered the video clip) - then Enabled the 4 layered titles and it's hung half way through rendering - I'm unable to Cancel the Render, showing as Not Responding in Task Manager and 0% CPU.

Have recently defragged HDD, and I recognise this behaviour from PPRO2. Maybe I should actually post these findings on the Adobe board instead of complaining about them here!

[Peter Ferling]

Defrag, yes. PPro3 will use all of the resources, so go for lunch or do something else.

You're PPro2 project maybe corrupt. You may have to rebuild the problem spots in PPro3 if you can't work around it.

Going avi wrapper (with cineform encode) vs. direct CFHD may fix. Lower the rez from High quality to medium quality may help also.

Originally created projects in PPro3 are not showing the same issues. Importing PPro2 is a mixed bag, some work, others don't.

BTW, FWIW, Adobe techs mentioned that PPro3 projects are backwards compatible, and can be opened in PPro2 (minus PPro3 special features).

Another user on the adobe forum has reported that you can regain Mpeg usage in PPro3 if you copy the "mainconcept" plugins/files like we did with cinforms.

You can no-longer render directly to a DVD from the timeline. You have to pre-encode the sequence and hand that off to encore. Lost functionality. In light of all this 'dynamic linking', why?

In the final analysis, I'm not entirely happy nor relieved with having to use unfinished beta software on mission critical projects.

[Peter Ferling]

I also had the "error compiling movie" on an imported 1080i clip, which I wanted to render to 480p widescreen. Choosing the avi wrapper with Cineform encoder; Medium quality, RBG color and progessive, worked.

If you can't go directly to CFHD, then try the wrapper.

[Peter Ferling]

FYI, Prospect 2K trail is in. Time to give that a go. I'll install tonight.