Computer config+aspect hd
 

I've just started editing a 40+ min short with aspect hd and for the most part it's simple cut's and dissolves. But this question was asked to me by David Newman...

"Erik, I always want to ask Aspect HD customers this question: What is the greatest number of layers and effects you applied and still got full real-time will no dropped frames? The companion question is how is your PC configured."

and my answer is...

I haven't had the need to use too many effects but i have at least 3 to 4 video tracks working at once and they're all playing back beautifully fast.

Now i'm not a computer whiz or anything, but my little 17 year old brother is and this is the computer that he helped me build:

2.8Ghz P4 Hyperthreading, overclocked to 3.2Ghz
2 GB ram (don't know what kind but it had aluminum casing around it.)
2*36GB Raptor's Raid 0
2*200GB 7200's Raid 0
ati radeon 9600
Mother board had built in 5.1 sound card and i don't remember what kind it was.
Win xp pro
Blah blah

If anyone out there is using Aspect Hd please let me know what you guys are liking and disliking about it... because I still have 28 more days to decide if I'm gonna keep it. At 1200 bucks it was quite a gamble for me to order. But I like it so far.

E.

Oh yeah, I dont work for cineform. Just trying to make movies in Colorado with No Budget.

I’ve also just started editing with Aspect HD.
 

To David Newman

It was a real pleasure meeting you last Weekend at DV Camps in Burbank. I purchased a copy of Aspect HD too late in the weekend. Hollywood Studio Rentals sold out during the weekend. However, I received my copy on Wednesday via Fed Ex. I’m up and running and already blown away. Although I’ve just started playing around, I can see what all the excitement is about. The real time previews are absolutely astounding. I’m only using edit cuts and your supplied transition so far, and as such the experience is exhilarating, After trying the included bundled KDDI software I wasn’t sure what to expect (I gave up on using that software altogether). Working with Premiere 6.5 with Aspect is on par and maybe even a better experience than my impressions of Premiere Pro with DV.

My computer is:
Sony 3.06 P4 Hyperthreading, with 533 FSB
1 GB ram
2*200GB 7200rpm drives (non raid) However, one dedicated to video.
Win xp home edition
Etc

As I continue to experiment I will let you know if and where I find limitations. But so far it’s been a very fluid and transparent experience.

Best regards,

Thank you to both of you for such nice comments.

Ray, DV Camps was a lot of fun and I hope to do that again soon, it is bonus that we sold a lot of copies as a result. :)

Next time you do that, please say hi to Geoff Zimmerman for me. Thanks,

Chris,

I thought the DVCamps seminar Geoff put together for the HD10 was very well done. I would be interested to attend some of his other "Camps" as well. If I do, I will also give him your regards as well.

Best regards,

I'd like to see HD10 camps in South Florida. :-)

Aspect HD display quality
 

Davin N.: I just read a post elsewhere in which someone suggested that Aspect HD delivers good performance by effectively dropping the resolution of the image being displayed during playback. Can you comment on whether there's any valid basis at all to such a remark, and if so what would that mean for displaying output from Aspect HD via a video card with component outputs to an HDTV? Could it be that someone's just confused about, say, how Sony Vegas does previews versus how Premiere Pro with Aspect HD does previews?

Then you probably saw the rest of the argument. It is tiring to explain all this, but yes Aspect HD has a preview mode that allow HD be manipulation at a higher speed than HD particularly should. Is an eligant approach that allows common single CPU systems and laptop edit is high speed, without compromise for most editing workflows. We can't explain the inner workings in detail becuase that is part of our secret sauce, but you should read "Mike's Review: Boxx Technologies Amazing HD[pro]RT" at http://www.hdforindies.com/ that scratches the surface on some of these issues, although not perfectly accurate it is a good starter on CineForm editing technology.

Thanks David, I hadn't seen all that information in the review you referenced. Would it be more correct then to say that Aspect HD will generate full-quality playback if it can, and then starts to drop the resolution when real time capabilities are exceeded? As a general guideline, what level of computer hardware is needed to play a single stream of 1080i HDV at full quality using Aspect HD?

It doesn't quiet work that way in today's Aspect HD, the article was based on Prospect HD (even then it isn't exactly correct.) We haven't unlocked AHD with some of the PHD features, but feature trickle down happens in every new release. So today's version of AHD doesn't enable the highest preview quality over PCI-e cards (yet) primarily because we are still awaiting our samples of those cards to try that out. When it does 3+Ghz P4 should be fine for a single stream out PCI-e to HDTV. There is another AHD release in the works (free upgrade to existing customers) that should enhance performance even further. We are a moving target, our features and performance are growing a good rate, so when you are ready to purchase, download the latest trial version and see if it meets your needs. There is cool stuff coming.

So if I use the current version of Aspect HD with Premiere Pro 1.5 on a nice fast computer, what exactly am I seeing in the preview window on the computer monitor? In other words, what is the best display quality I can expect with the current Cineform software?

When scrubbing you see everything, no preview mode, no compromise, to a external HD display if you wish. As you scrub faster the dynamic stuff kicks in and scrubbing occurs at half res (making timeline manipulation faster -- remember HD is big.) Playback uses the half res mode as the current default *. It looks much better than other half res decoding solutions as it is wavelet based, not DCT. The wavelet vs DCT advantages for preview is not something that is readily understandable by the market, that is why we don't discuss it much (wavelet offers beautiful filtered averages at multiple resolutions.) It was due to the wavelet quality on last years HD Road Show (Adobe, BOXX, CineForm and Microsoft) where we showed timeline previews from HDSDI through a Christy projector, the audience couldn't tell the difference ("Dust to Glory" previewed its color correction is much the same way.) We continue to tweak the pipeline and codec to get more speed and even higher quality. We will also adapt the engine to match new hardware options (like PCI-e HDTV cards) and faster/dual core CPUs. Software can be changed at a very short notice. ;)

- David

* this is subject to change, as pipeline/codec is designed for more flexibility than we are currently shipping.

Aspect HD 3.0 w/ FX1 and Cineframe24
 

I've had my FX1 for a while and have been doing numerous workarounds to produce HD solutions, however I'm getting fed up working with the MPEG-2 files, and would like to start actually editing in HD. From what I've read, Aspect HD combined with Premiere Pro 1.5 seems to be the most versatile solution... so I want to ask some questions.

I have Premiere Pro 1.0, and have been resisting the upgrade, but it looks like it will be necessary to work with Aspect HD. Is this true?

Some of the footage I'm working with is Cineframe24 material. I would like to be able to edit this in a 24p timeline relatively painlessly, as well as add effects to natively 24p footage. Does Aspect HD 3.0 handle Cineframe24 footage well? Does it remove the 2:3 pulldown and make a 23.976 fps file that can be frame-accurately edited? Or does it retain the file as a 60i file and deal with pulldown in software?

I do need to be able to work with the footage I edit in After Effects, and I understand the PPro 1.5.1 solution doesn't enable this, making the full Cineform product necessary. Is this true?

Is there a noticable advantage in After Effects working with the Aspect HD files, or could I simply take PPro 1.5.1 and export to an uncompressed AVI do my AE work? (We're talking $500 US here, so that's a lot of frustration).

-Steve

The upgrade to Premiere Pro 1.5 (and then the HDV patch release 1.5.1) is recommended for all users. Certain Aspect HD features will only work using 1.5.1.

It is not recommended to reverse the the pull-down on CF24. It seems most agree on this, here is explanation why http://www.adamwilt.com/HDV/cineframe.html from Adam Wilt. If enough users want this we may add this in the future to AHD. Currently for 24p work using a tool like DVFilm is recommended (from 50i/60i sources) to produce much better results.

The After Effects option requires the full Aspect HD.

Aspect HD is worth every penny -- otherwise I need to find another job. :) You can use uncompressed, but that become a clunky process, particularly when reimportanting back into Premiere. If you use Aspect HD you can cut and paste from Premiere straight into AE, no near to waste disk space and time with an uncompressed export.

>>It is not recommended to reverse the the pull-down on CF24. It seems most agree on this, here is explanation why<<

Yeah, I've read all that. The bottom line is that I have CF24 footage that I want to do frame accurate, real-time 24p editing on with the pull-down reversed... recommeded or otherwise, it's the workflow I require for this, and probably any future narrative project I intend to do on my FX1.

On the Aspect HD 3.0 site it says:
"24p editing workflow. If exporting to M2T, automatic pull-down conversion from 24p to 60i is provided"

According to my understanding of english, that means I can take 24p files and render them to 60i with a 2:3 pull-down... but not necessarily the other way around.

How I can exploit the Aspect HD, Premiere Pro 1.5.1 and After Effects 6.5 and do frame-accurate 24p editing of CF24 footage in Premiere Pro?

-Steve

Yes true 24p is supported. We are assuming a no-HDV 24p source of a source converted to 24 using an external tool (DVFilm, Magic Bullet etc.)

CF24 is something else. If you use CF24 in a pulled down state, avoid anything to enhance the motion cadance issues (i.e. no motion titles or PiP in motion or wipes.) Basically any overlay motion (at the correct 24p rate) will only highlight the errors of the original CF24 acquistion.

After that disclaimer, here is how to use AE to create 24p content from CF24 files. Using Aspect HD 3.0

1) Capture into CineForm Intermediate AVIs (60i for CF24.) Use Premiere or HDLink.

2) Import the CF24 clip into AE.

3) Select the CF24 clip and press Ctrl+F (to open "Interpret Footage")

4) In "Fields and Pulldown": set "Separate Fields" to "Upper Field First"

5) Then click "Guess 3:2 Pulldown", then click OK.

6) Create a 1920x1080 Composition at 23.976p.

7) Render out the Composition to CFHD (remember to scale the output back to 1440x1080.)

You now have a 24p AVI in CFHD.

Hm. I'll fire a few more questions into the mix:

Question 1:
Steps (1) and (7) both include CFHD compression steps. Currently I can do steps (2) through (6) in AE on the raw MPEG files. Would I not theoretically get superior quality by simply performing steps (2) through (7) on the transport streams - also avoiding one time-consuming render to CFHD? Or would the benefit of doing the reverse pull-down on the CFHD file wind up being computationally more efficient?

Question 2:
In step (6), why are do you recommend a 1920x1080 composition? Wouldn't it make more sense to make a 1440x1080 composition with a PA of 1.33?

Question 3:
Basically, I've done (2) through (6) on my footage rendering to uncompressed files instead of CFHD in (7) but I can't edit this worth beans in real time. (2.8 GHz HT, w/ 1 GB DDR400 RAM, 7200 rpm UDMA5). I expect to upgrade my video storage drives to RAID 0 S-ATA drives. Will this improvement in hard drive speed enable RT editing of uncompressed HD, or is the software implementation of CFHD significantly more efficient that will enable me to edit more effectively?

Question 4:
Does Premiere Pro 1.5.1, equiped with Aspect HD have the appropriate utilities and default settings to edit 1440x1080 24p CFHD files with the same speed as it can handle the 60i CFHD files?

Question 5:
Premiere Pro 1.5 claims to support the Pansonic 24p and 24pA formats. Does this mean Premiere Pro can reverse the 2:3 pulldown as well? If so, can it do it on the CFHD files at 1440x1080 or is the AE solution required?

Comment:
These 7 steps have been awfully time consuming for me on this current project - adding oodles of overhead that I was hoping to reduce by this upgrade path. The problem with this workflow is that I have to do this for EVERY file, if I'm going to do any useful editing (i.e., take selection) in HD. This addition of 100s of renders out of AE so that I can go into Premiere, edit, and come back to AE for special effects sounds more tedious than the inevitable FX work itself. If Aspect HD 3.0 can do pull-down addition, I'm surprised it isn't well-equipped to do pull-down reversal... and seems like a pretty valuable feature to add to a workflow-enhancing product that already does a frame-by-frame re-compression of the video.

Sony clearly implemented CF24 in the hopes people would consider the FX1 for low-budget narrative projects. It seems pretty clear that the Aspect HD product is designed almost exclusively to accomodate an HDV workflow, and I would like to see CF24 fully supported. Proper implementation of pull-down reversal (in both 2:3 and 2:3:3:2) would completely erase any qualms I might have about buying Aspect HD and would make me a happy customer.

Q1 - MPEG is a pain, CFHD is faster.

Q2 - Default AE installation doesn't support 1.33 PAR (yes there are hacks around it.) This is a workflow to overcome that.

Q3 - Uncompressed is very slow, even with a two drive SATA RAID-0. Uncompressed RGB 24p is 1440x1080x24x3 = 107 MBytes/s; your drives will only sustain 60Mb/s at best (not including other processing tasks.) CFHD is vastly more efficient. Uncompressed workflow is one of the reasons we development CineForm Intermediate (as the antidote.)

Q4 - 24p is faster than 60i. Yes Aspect HD 3.0 can handle this -- with RAID-0 will get up to 4 streams on a fast P4. Simply create a 24p (23.976p) preset using the CineForm RT Engine (set to No Field - Progressive.)

Q5 - Premiere Pro doesn't have the same reverse pull-down options as AE.

Comment: We don't believe reverse pull-down CF24 will be a common filmmaker workflow. But, if we get enough requests from existing registered Aspect HD customers we will consider adding it as a real-time operation upon capture (yes very cool -- but it will take some engineering.) You are not the first to ask, but not many others have requested this (yet.) Become a customer and I will consider you another vote. :)

>>We don't believe reverse pull-down CF24 will be a common filmmaker workflow.<<

Undoubtedly I agree with you - namely because I suspect the next models of 1080i HDV cams will have true 24p capture, implemented on the 60i stream the same way the DVX and XL2 do - with 2:3 and 2:3:3:2. As such, the "support" won't so much be for CF24 as it will be for "24p HDV"... of which CF24 will eventually become a forgotten pioneer. Of course, that's a way in the future.

>>You are not the first to ask, but not many others have requested this (yet.)<<

I hope they're reading this thread!

>>Become a customer and I will consider you another vote.<<

Ah yes... the ol' shell out $499 and I might give you the software you wanted to buy trick... I bought the camera, you know I'm good for it! ;)

No worries... I understand where you're coming from, and Cineform has been awfully good about providing free upgrades for existing customers. However, it's not like you've got a lot of competition though, and if someone else offered it I'd find it to be a killer feature.

AE workflow
 

Ok, this may help some, but here it goes. The way I use AE is I start a project in PPro 1.5 using cineform preset, don't even have to put video on the timeline, save it, open it up (the PPro project) in AE 6.5 and works like a champ for exporting back to PPro. If I bring a file in (CFHD file, interpret footage says "no fields" which is no problem, you don't need to change to upper field first, it will export fine (using the Cineform 1.2 codec of course)

anyway AE is set up with the right aspect ratio(1.33 ) when doing this, so you can create everything in that project, no problem, it still looks squished, but the work around was already covered on this board.


Mike

Mike,

Problem solved. The first 50 people to download Aspect HD 3.0 got a faulty version of the After Effects module. If you simply download it again and reinstall it will be fine. Sorry for the inconvience.

Thanks David!


Mike

APVe vs. FX540 from Aspect HD
 

Has anyone had any experience with the Matrox APVe card or nVidia FX540 using AspectHD? I am curious as to the differences between the two. I would like to have HDTV output along with 2 monitors. The APVe appears to support that configuration, does anyone know about the FX540? I also read somewhere about the APVe not supporting openGL. If so, would this mean the FX540 would provide more power in After Effects?

Any thoughts are appreciated.

Some questions about Aspect HD
 

Hello everyone and thanks for a great forum. I have a few questions about Aspect HD and HDV editing in general, maybe David Newman can answer, Id be grateful!

I have pre-ordered a JVC ProHD camera, is 720p/24&25 supported by Aspect HD as I can only see 720p/30 on the specs? Is the ProHD camera supported or will it be in future updates?

Im also building a whole new computer to go with the camera, what do you recommend for HDV editing alongside Aspect HD...dual Xeon, Athlon X2 or Opteron? On the cineform homepage it is recommended to use Xeon or Opteron but it says nothing about Athlon X2, are the Athlon X2 (4400 or 4800) not good enough?

Aspect HD will support ProHD 720p24/25, but there will likely be another update in time for the camera's release to fully support its features. I believe today's Aspect HD 3.1 has a fair amount of support, as JVC sales staff have been using Aspect HD to demo editing the camera. Again any changes to support Pro HD will be a free upgrade to existing Aspect HD customers.

As for CPU choices the Althon X2 was only annouced today, so our web site hasn't been updated (give it a month or two :) .) Basically Aspect HD works on any modern CPU (or CPUs.) We only recommend dual proc for Prospect HD as Aspect HD works on P4s or Althons perfectly. You don't need a dual processor system but they also work great. Dual core CPUs are another way to go -- we have tested with dual core Opterons (very nice) so the Althon X2 should be similar.

Plus if you intend to editing 1280x720 p24 or p25 that is significantly easier than 1080i -- with 720p30 footage we got up to 6 streams on last year's P4 -- so expect Aspect HD to offer a nice editing experience (and p24 is 20% easier than p30.)

WoW, tanks for the fast answers and the good news David, I look forward to your new release for the JVC! :)

Since I must build a new computer I think it will be better to build it future proof. Im leaning towards the Athlon X2 as Ive read great things about it. I guess 24p editing with the Athlon X2 (4800) along Aspect HD will be a great combination...I cant wait to get started! :)

Building a PC around an Althon X2 will be a very good Aspect HD system. I look forward to having you join the fun as an Aspect HD version user.

apve works awesomely
 

I have already posted a few quips on some other threads but the APVe is the only one with true three monitor out or two monitors plus preview simultaniously.

CF24 With Aspect Hd 3.2 HELP PLEASE!!!
 

I shot some footage to see how aspect 3.2 would handle the 3:2 pulldown during capture. Either i am not used to how 24p should look or CF24 doesn't do a good job faking 24p or Aspect 3.2 falls short of a proper 3:2 pulldown.

The footage I shot, during any type of movement (subject) there was serious motion blur. Is that the result from CF24? or is 24p footage supposed to be blurred.

Should I raise the shutter speed? I used 1/60th.


Would I get better results performing the pull down in Ppro 1.5.1 / After effects 6.5?

Thanks

joel

If the footage is blurry that what you will get, as extracting the pull-down does not manipulate the source frames, it only reconstructs them for 24p editing. 1/60th is normal (most films are shot with 1/48th.) Try capturing with the pulldown extraction switched off, then compare the results (with playback settings set to deinterlace off.) This will help you understand how pull-down works and what your source data is like.

Also this page might help:
http://www.cineform.com/products/Son.../CineFrame.htm

CineFrame 24 mode out of the Sony HDV cameras can look a little strange as the "pulldown" isn't exactly an even multiple...the frame cadence "gallops" a bit. Aspect "handles" the footage without manipulation other than pulling out the "extra" frames.

Some motion blur is desirable to most folks as that is as important to the "film look" as the frame rate is...due to the longer frame exposure that David Newman mentioned.

I personally prefer the results I get using CF25 mode (europe) on a Z1 and converting it to 24 when I capture...much smoother.

...but you'll still have some image blurring on movement.

MainConcept or Aspect
 

MainConcept MPEG Pro HD Plug-In for Adobe Premiere or Aspect HD v3.3

Witch is best for PC and JVC GY-HD100?

Personally, I believe that editing with Aspect HD is a much better choice. Realtime editing with quite a few supplied effects. And it keeps getting better and better - and yet, there have been no charges for upgrades in all this time.

Plus, the support around here is better for Cineform since the CTO hangs out here.

It's really a question of productivity and workflow. The Cineform solution works great. They have real-time filters and effects that will make working with HDV much faster.


Gary

Is it posible to transcode/encode from HDV direct to mpeg 2 from Premiere timeline with Aspect HD?

Yes it is. If you mean regular MPEG2-DVD in the Adobe Media Encoder to put on a regular SD DVD. It can do that as well as export back to M2T.

What do I really need aspect HD for?
 

I have a GR-HD1 , I use the HD capture utility supplied by JVC to capture the m2t files. Then I take them into vegas 6, and export them as uncompressed AVI's. From there I bring them into Premiere's HDV preset ( the free upgrade from adobe) and edit. I also use adobe after effects. When Im done with my project I just export it from premiere as an uncompressed AVI.

Besides having to go through vegas , are there any major drawbacks to using this method? Do I really need aspect HD= and if so what are the major benefits?

Do I really need aspect HD
 

I posted this in the other forum, but meant to post it here.

I have a GR-HD1 , I use the HD capture utility supplied by JVC to capture the m2t files. Then I take them into vegas 6, and export them as uncompressed AVI's. From there I bring them into Premiere's HDV preset ( the free upgrade from adobe) and edit. I also use adobe after effects. When Im done with my project I just export it from premiere as an uncompressed AVI.

Besides having to go through vegas , are there any major drawbacks to using this method? Do I really need aspect HD= and if so what are the major benefits?

Clearly you are going through a lot of steps, all of which can be avoided using Aspect HD. Also working with uncompressed files greatly limits real-time abilities due to disk bottle necks. Aspect HD would allow you to capture directly in Premiere in real-time straight into an AVI that is compatible with all your tools. Within Premiere Pro Aspect HD's real-time engine would allow you to do between 4 and 6 real-time 720p streams (depending on your PC.) These are the major benefit of Aspect HD. You should download the trial from www.cineform.com.