HDV is completely broken

Sean McHenry · November 16th, 2005, 08:23 AM

Yeah...sorry about the drift. All done diverging now. My original intent was to show a similarity in the current state of HDV and other software. And we strayed. Sorry Chris. I do that.

Sean

Tommy James · November 16th, 2005, 12:26 PM

I think what you are trying to say is that the technology of high definition in general is completely broken. When a new technology is introduced no matter what the technology is or how good it is it is not readily accepted by everyone. I thought high definition would be an exception to this basic rule because you can see with your own eyes how good it is. But the fact is that if a person is not ready for high definition he will indeed turn a blind eye to it. The critic will say that high definition is unwatchable because it shows the wrinkles and makes the actors look ugly.

There is no doubt in my mind that when color television was first introduced that there was fierce opposition to the format. The first objection was that color television was not backwards compatible with black and white television.
It was then said that only the very wealth would ever be able to afford color television and that it would never achieve any sort of significant market share.

Chris Hurd · November 16th, 2005, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy James

It was then said that only the very wealth would ever be able to afford color television and that it would never achieve any sort of significant market share.

That was actually said about television in general prior to World War Two, and back then it certainly was true as far as anyone could foretell.

Mark Grant · November 21st, 2005, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Lot's of folks are abandoning the Avid ship for FCP and Vegas, not because they want to but because they have work to get done in this format their clients keep asking about.

That's odd: I've edited hours of HDV in Avid Xpress Pro HD with few problems (the primary one being that it sometimes loses contact with the camera while capturing). Why would I want to switch to Vegas?

As for HDV as a format, it does everything I need it to other than giving me a usable master format... you don't want to recompress to MPEG-2 after editing.

Graeme Nattress · November 21st, 2005, 08:18 AM

The difference with HDV is that 4 incompatible / semi-incompatible colour TV formats have been put to market, and you can't watch/edit/dub etc. from one to the other. What if Beta and VHS had the same sized cassette shells, and the same logo on them, but were incompatible? Well, that's practically what's happening here.

Graeme

Kevin Shaw · November 21st, 2005, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graeme Nattress

The difference with HDV is that 4 incompatible / semi-incompatible colour TV formats have been put to market, and you can't watch/edit/dub etc. from one to the other.

Seems to me that this issue will largely resolve itself by people learning to transfer video data on something other than non-compatible tapes, giving us even more reason to move away from a tape-based workflow. I don't own a DVCProHD or HDCAM deck and I don't worry about incompatibilities between those formats; why fret now just because HDV has so many variations? I can't see losing much sleep over this problem, even if it is a nuisance.

Quote:

What if Beta and VHS had the same sized cassette shells, and the same logo on them, but were incompatible? Well, that's practically what's happening here.

If that example is any indication, then incompatibilities between HDV variations which are a problem for producers to deal with simply won't survive in the marketplace. If all the variations survive that will show it wasn't a big deal after all; if they don't then the problem is a self-correcting one.

Mark Grant · November 21st, 2005, 08:58 AM

Quote:

What if Beta and VHS had the same sized cassette shells, and the same logo on them, but were incompatible? Well, that's practically what's happening here.

You mean kind of like VHS, S-VHS and D-VHS?

Sean McHenry · November 21st, 2005, 09:47 AM

Mark,
Have you ever had a client bring you a "VHS" tape and it's really an "S-VHS" tape. Similar confusion you bet, but worse. Lets suppose they have a VHS, S-VHS and D-VHS all with different record rates, SP, LP, EP, etc. and they wanted to edit a television program from them. If you have only Pro gear, you won't even have EP as a playback option so you need yet a 4th deck. (Sony, JVC, Panasonic, Canon - HDV, sound familiar?)

Anyway, I am betting you might be able to edit with the Avid pulling video from the camera and occasionally loosing contact, but I am betting TC is an issue and you have no accurate 422 control. That's what I am missing in my work flow and the workflow of the post house I am presently at.

We are working on a major PBS series here and had hoped to use two of the JVC HD100s as 3rd and 4th cameras to suppliment our Varicam footage. Without accurate 422 control and real TC, we cannot do that and need to rent more Varicams. Those puppies aren't cheap.

Anyway, I'll let the pot simmer for a while and we'll see what kind of soup we end up with.

Sean

Stephen van Vuuren · November 21st, 2005, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Grant

You mean kind of like VHS, S-VHS and D-VHS?

No. They are, in-fact different formats with different names. And S-VHS decks play and record all VHS. And have totally different target markets. Not a good comparison, unless to illustrate a difference with the current HDV tape mess.

Mark Grant · November 21st, 2005, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Anyway, I am betting you might be able to edit with the Avid pulling video from the camera and occasionally loosing contact, but I am betting TC is an issue and you have no accurate 422 control.

Timecode control seems to work fine, but without some way of burning timecode into the HDV footage it's impossible to be certain. I stick the tape in the camera, I type in the timecode from the shotlist, the PC captures to disk by Firewire... generally speaking, it just works.

Quote:

That's what I am missing in my work flow and the workflow of the post house I am presently at.

So are you saying that timecode control of HDV decks doesn't work for you? As far as I'm aware, HDV timecode is built into the data stream like DV, so it should be very hard to screw up... unless you choose to use external timecode control for some weird reason.

To me, complaining about problems with 422 timecode control of an HDV deck seems a bit like complaining that your gasoline car doesn't run well on diesel. The timecode is in the Firewire data stream: why not use it?

Quote:

They are, in-fact different formats with different names.

So are Beta and VHS, which was what the original comment was about. And, pedantically, so are HDV1 and HDV2.

Stephen van Vuuren · November 21st, 2005, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Grant

So are Beta and VHS, which was what the original comment was about. And, pedantically, so are HDV1 and HDV2.

There is no official HDV1 and HDV2 - thus, the point of this whole thread :)

Sean McHenry · November 21st, 2005, 05:19 PM

When you need to capture via HD output from the deck, and I'm speaking of the BR-HD50 here, you will need to use the HD outputs, not 1394 and this would mean you need 422 control. You would need this, as we do, if you are going to remote mount the decks in a central tape room to have professional tape operators feed the decks and monitor layoffs, etc.

Our tape room is about 120' from any particular Avid suite in the place. We have always used 422 control and either SDI or multi line outputs from the Avids, etc in sending video and audio around the plant.

The common response would be to tell folks to just buck up and put a deck in every suite. For us thats 7 additional decks and if we should have to put 1 or two in the tape room for the ops to make dubs, etc, we need about 10 of these decks. So OK, that's an additional $3k-$5k per so that adds about, averaging, $40K to our equipment budget, not including the cables, and means every Avid suite operator must now be able to manage our tape library from their suite. That also means some tapes will just plain disappear, cause that happens when everyone in the place gets to handle the tapes whenever they need one.

You see, it's a lot more than just saying, hey, that's OK, we'll find a way to make it work when you just have one Xpess Pro suite. There is a gap, and always will be it seems, between the mom-and-pop places, like I run in my spare time, and a professional post production house, like my day job.

The next person that tells me I don't need 422 or accurate TC is going to get such a smack in the back of the head...

On the flip side, Mark, send me the details of how you know TC is actually working for you. Are you able to see the TC when you look at individual clips? Not in the video but in the TC option on the source window, etc. If you are, that's great. However if it is occasionally dropping out, that's still not a professional answer, that's still a problem.

Last thing, try this. On a capture, when you stop, does the time code on the last frame of the capture match the time code for that same frame on the deck/camera?

I have noticed in Vegas, the TC that is showing is always a bit ahead of the TC the BR-HD50 is showing on the display. I think I know why but I am curious what other find.

Sean McHenry

Chris Hurd · November 21st, 2005, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen van Vuuren

There is no official HDV1 and HDV2

Actually there is. Both JVC and Canon refer to HDV1 and HDV2 in their sales training materials; I have sat in on presentations by both manufacturers and both made reference to HDV1 and HDV2. Since they're two of the leading four manufacturers of the HDV consortium, I think that's official enough.

Stephen van Vuuren · November 21st, 2005, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Actually there is. Both JVC and Canon refer to HDV1 and HDV2 in their sales training materials; I have sat in on presentations by both manufacturers and both made reference to HDV1 and HDV2. Since they're two of the leading four manufacturers of the HDV consortium, I think that's official enough.

From my perspective that's just CYA by both companies since it's not on the official site and Sony does not refer to it or support it. 24F does not equal 24p on the JVC, so how do you call it HDV2 with a straight face?

Steve Crisdale · November 21st, 2005, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen van Vuuren

From my perspective that's just CYA by both companies since it's not on the official site and Sony does not refer to it or support it. 24F does not equal 24p on the JVC, so how do you call it HDV2 with a straight face?

And there was me thinking that this "storm in a teacup", "HDV is Broken", run around in circles screaming because we don't know what to do with ourselves nonsense, had been consigned to the "isn't it time to move on and discuss something meaningful" graveyard it so richly deserved...

It's like watching a dog wrestling with a bone that's lost it's taste; and all the people gathered around - who the dog is hoping to impress and involve - have turned away and moved on. Somehow the dog doesn't get it that it's antics have gotten stale and uninteresting, along with the bone it's salivating over.

November 16th, 2005, 08:23 AM	#76
Sean McHenry Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hilliard, Ohio Posts: 1,193	Yeah...sorry about the drift. All done diverging now. My original intent was to show a similarity in the current state of HDV and other software. And we strayed. Sorry Chris. I do that. Sean __________________ ‘I don’t know what I’m doing, and I’m shooting on D.V.’ - my hero - David Lynch http://www.DeepBlueEdit.com

November 21st, 2005, 08:18 AM	#80
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	The difference with HDV is that 4 incompatible / semi-incompatible colour TV formats have been put to market, and you can't watch/edit/dub etc. from one to the other. What if Beta and VHS had the same sized cassette shells, and the same logo on them, but were incompatible? Well, that's practically what's happening here. Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

November 21st, 2005, 09:47 AM	#83
Sean McHenry Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hilliard, Ohio Posts: 1,193	Mark, Have you ever had a client bring you a "VHS" tape and it's really an "S-VHS" tape. Similar confusion you bet, but worse. Lets suppose they have a VHS, S-VHS and D-VHS all with different record rates, SP, LP, EP, etc. and they wanted to edit a television program from them. If you have only Pro gear, you won't even have EP as a playback option so you need yet a 4th deck. (Sony, JVC, Panasonic, Canon - HDV, sound familiar?) Anyway, I am betting you might be able to edit with the Avid pulling video from the camera and occasionally loosing contact, but I am betting TC is an issue and you have no accurate 422 control. That's what I am missing in my work flow and the workflow of the post house I am presently at. We are working on a major PBS series here and had hoped to use two of the JVC HD100s as 3rd and 4th cameras to suppliment our Varicam footage. Without accurate 422 control and real TC, we cannot do that and need to rent more Varicams. Those puppies aren't cheap. Anyway, I'll let the pot simmer for a while and we'll see what kind of soup we end up with. Sean __________________ ‘I don’t know what I’m doing, and I’m shooting on D.V.’ - my hero - David Lynch http://www.DeepBlueEdit.com

November 21st, 2005, 05:19 PM	#87
Sean McHenry Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hilliard, Ohio Posts: 1,193	When you need to capture via HD output from the deck, and I'm speaking of the BR-HD50 here, you will need to use the HD outputs, not 1394 and this would mean you need 422 control. You would need this, as we do, if you are going to remote mount the decks in a central tape room to have professional tape operators feed the decks and monitor layoffs, etc. Our tape room is about 120' from any particular Avid suite in the place. We have always used 422 control and either SDI or multi line outputs from the Avids, etc in sending video and audio around the plant. The common response would be to tell folks to just buck up and put a deck in every suite. For us thats 7 additional decks and if we should have to put 1 or two in the tape room for the ops to make dubs, etc, we need about 10 of these decks. So OK, that's an additional $3k-$5k per so that adds about, averaging, $40K to our equipment budget, not including the cables, and means every Avid suite operator must now be able to manage our tape library from their suite. That also means some tapes will just plain disappear, cause that happens when everyone in the place gets to handle the tapes whenever they need one. You see, it's a lot more than just saying, hey, that's OK, we'll find a way to make it work when you just have one Xpess Pro suite. There is a gap, and always will be it seems, between the mom-and-pop places, like I run in my spare time, and a professional post production house, like my day job. The next person that tells me I don't need 422 or accurate TC is going to get such a smack in the back of the head... On the flip side, Mark, send me the details of how you know TC is actually working for you. Are you able to see the TC when you look at individual clips? Not in the video but in the TC option on the source window, etc. If you are, that's great. However if it is occasionally dropping out, that's still not a professional answer, that's still a problem. Last thing, try this. On a capture, when you stop, does the time code on the last frame of the capture match the time code for that same frame on the deck/camera? I have noticed in Vegas, the TC that is showing is always a bit ahead of the TC the BR-HD50 is showing on the display. I think I know why but I am curious what other find. Sean McHenry __________________ ‘I don’t know what I’m doing, and I’m shooting on D.V.’ - my hero - David Lynch http://www.DeepBlueEdit.com

November 16th, 2005, 12:26 PM	#77
Tommy James suspended -- contact admin Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 214	I think what you are trying to say is that the technology of high definition in general is completely broken. When a new technology is introduced no matter what the technology is or how good it is it is not readily accepted by everyone. I thought high definition would be an exception to this basic rule because you can see with your own eyes how good it is. But the fact is that if a person is not ready for high definition he will indeed turn a blind eye to it. The critic will say that high definition is unwatchable because it shows the wrinkles and makes the actors look ugly. There is no doubt in my mind that when color television was first introduced that there was fierce opposition to the format. The first objection was that color television was not backwards compatible with black and white television. It was then said that only the very wealth would ever be able to afford color television and that it would never achieve any sort of significant market share.