Ikonoskop A-cam dII at IBC2008
 

Ikonoskop introduces its new digital motion picture camera, the A-cam dII, on Friday 9/12 at IBC2008.

For more info, see A-cam dII - The camera loves you | A-cam dII | Products | Ikonoskop

[ update: more photos at http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/digital-c...ii-photos.html ]

I like what Ikonoskop are doing. They seem to know what people want. Ie Low cost, New, no nonsense cameras.

They are releasing a new super8 along the same lines as the 16mm as well!!

Nice one Ikonoskop!

James

ikonoskop
 

better than D90, cheaper than red:
A-cam dII World Premiere at stopmebeforeiblogagain

Wow. Nice, simple design.

RED ONE is 4K. Scarlet is much cheaper!!! and 3K and 180 fps (120 continually) D90 is a still camera.

This camera has interchangeable lenses, which RED has stated costs more because the market is much smaller than for cameras with fixed lenses. There's a possibly floating around that it uses a CCD rather than a CMOS sensor.

The camera weighs 1.5 kg, so lighter than a Scarlet, for those situations when that might matter.

It records RAW uncompressed, so seems to be addressing a different market to the Scarlet. Although, perhaps some form of compression may have to applied in practise when downloading - interesting to know if Cineform or other 3rd party will get involved.

I'm hoping someone attending IBC will drop by their booth, takes some pics and post them here.

Meanwhile: More info on A-cam dII | News/blog | Ikonoskop

They've updated their website to show the sensor is CCD, global shutter and the RAW video is captured as DNG sequence.

The camera (concept) and the people behind it are just amazing.

Just back from IBC, and will seat tomorrow to write a short report concerning the camera.

BTW, the pictures at the web site do not do justice with this beautiful camera.



Thanks.

Johnnie

Not to mention the S16 sized sensor... Like the specs a lot.

The footage they showed at IBC looked very good. Looking quickly at it, I believe the sensor could be rated 400 to 500 ISO. The footage looked really clean, except for some night shots, where you could notice some read noise (I suspect) in the blacks (not that I worried that much). And since it is uncompressed, normal lit footage looked very nice, better than some artifacts I've seen in graded Red footage. But I guess the sensor could still be optimized a bit, color wise. Too bad there weren't any daylight scenes with skin tones. It was a bit hard to judge how natural color rendition is.
Obviously, the financial backing is less than other companies, but the footage looked as good as what I saw from Red two years ago at IBC. But that may be comparing apples and oranges, I guess.

On the communication side of things:
I do hope they take their time to post test footage on the web. The footage I've seen needed to be filmed really quick before they left for IBC and lighting and glass weren't optimal. And if it's not looking perfect, they will be flamed on every blog or forum discussing it. And perhaps unjust.

As for the out of the box experience: I really hope they keep everything in the final package (lens, body, battery, charger, memory cartridge), even when it means that the price will go up (hopefully not too much). But I believe those cartridges are very expensive to produce. Not much profit there. Fingers crossed.

Marketing wise, I guess it would be smart to show two outfits: one very discreet with c-mount for low-profile use and one elaborate with pl-mount that shows it with all the bells and whistles so people understand it can be a complete camera system (optical viewfinder, external monitor, external recording system, matte-box, follow focus).

The only thing I'm wondering about is if there are many C-mount lenses that have the same optical resolution as PL-lenses. C-mount lenses have the advantage of a much shorter focal flange and can therefore be less complicated. But I simple don't know enough about lenses to have the right answer. Does anyone have any good examples?

The way they explained the camera, it's use -buttons, menu's- have been really thought through. Let's hope it also works that way. I'm sure they will elaborate on that the next weeks.

Also, I appreciate them for not throwing around product announcements and release dates all the time, even though they realize it would be great marketing.

All in all, I really love their approach and eagerly wait for more news. I also admit I've pre-ordered one. This should be the camera I've been waiting for a long time. I always hoped for some sort of digital-bolex-equivalent. Red One or SI-2K is often too bulky for me and Scarlet just doesn't feel right to me at this point.

Exactly my thought, Kurt. Thank you for your thoughts on this very interesting camera.

Rick Youb did an interview with Ikonoskop.

MacVideo - Camera Technology - Features - The Ikonoskop -A-cam dII - a different sort of digital cinema camera

Three unique ways to take a picture
 

The A-Cam dII is a very interesting option at this stage in the game. People are already starting to compare it's announced specs to those of the (in-development) Scarlet and of course the Red One. Thinking about that discussion, I've personally come to the conclusion that the dII is a unique offering, and the guys at Ikonoskop have wisely developed a featureset that places it nicely into it's own niche.

I've written an article at PVC that outlines why I believe this to be the case, and how Red, Scarlet, and the A-Cam dII will coexist with minimal overlap. I'd be interested to hear what the community thinks.

12-bit RAW
 

Something important everyone missed. Its not just uncompressed, not just RAW but 12-bit TWELVE bit RAW.

Most cams use 8-bit i.e. 256 value for color this uses 2^4 i.e. 16 times as many - 4096 values..

No rolling shutter, no skewing, and no fluoro lines after setting the right frame rate (try shooting with CMOS under flickering fluoro lights).

S16 sensor is about 1 inch if I remember right. Lets see how the CCD handles blooming..
Amazing - uncompressed 12-bit HD.
Does anyone know how does a DNG workflow look like ? I only know photoshop for DNG as its still a still image format. I don't think they are using CinemaDNG as its not a final standard yet..
So do we use photoshop for editing ???????

More impressions
 

I went through the interview.
1. About 1/2 - 2/3rd into the interview they show a sample video of taking the camera on a car and shooting streetlights. I could not see blooming and obviously no rolling shutter.
2. Sensor is 2/3-inch - my fault in my post before
3. Workflow needs conversion to quicktime or dpx. Dont know if anyone supports what they call RAW DNG.
4. For 24P @ 3.5 MBps, its 3.5*24 = 84 MBps. For realtime editing, you need a fast 2-disk RAID0 or a 3-disk RAID0. What I use for my uncompressed HDMI capture.

I was a bit impressed actually. Isn't this a cheaper version of the SI-2K with uncompressed capture AND A CCD sensor ?


Lets see what the sensor can do, which sensor it is.

Would be interesting to know which sensor ? I could lookup specs on low light and dynamic range..Each pixel size seems to be about 6 micrometer..i.e. 2M divided among a 2/3-inch sensor. Hmmm!
They say they have lots of pre-orders. First shipping on 1st week of December. Mass orders in January..

Seems to be this sensor

KAI-02150

EEProductCenter.com :: CCD image sensor delivers 1080p resolution at 60 fps
CCD image sensor delivers 1080p resolution at 60 fps

KAI-02150 image sensor provides full support for the 1080p image capture standard, supporting 1920 x 1080 pixel (16:9 aspect ratio) image capture at 60 frames per second

The new sensor also provides a dynamic range of 64 dB

Pricing: Approximately $425 in volume.

>>> Hmm. At least we have an idea of the margins involved..

other imaging parameters such as image smear and read noise have been improved with this technology, which also results in improved image quality.

TRUESENSE 5.5 micron Interline Transfer
>>> 5.5 micron low light is looking goooood..

Sorry for all the info....But I am excited..This looks good - realllllyyyy good...

KODAK Image Sensor Solutions - KAI-02150 - Overview

KODAK Image Sensor Solutions - KAI-02150 - Specifications

The vertical overflow drain structure provides antiblooming protection and enables electronic shuttering for precise exposure control. Other features include low dark current, negligible lag and low smear.

12.1mm diagonal sensor size..

NOW I have to try get 10G's for this camera..OR hope that the EUR goes down a lot in the next couple of months.

Another interview about the Ikonoskop
 

http://www.viddler.com/explore/blacktar/videos/1/
Includes histogram and Picture-In-Picture zoom for focusing.
2-channel audio.

Costs 6950/- Eur (he said 7K Eur in another interview) includes battery, camera, 80-GB cartridge and a 9mm lens (S16mm equivalent).

Summary FAQ
 

Here is the summary FAQ. Chris,, I have never been so excited. Do you mind making a category for this camera ? This sounds better than the RED..
FAQ: dII | Support | Ikonoskop


FAQ: dII

Here are some of the most common questions that we get today.

Q. What about workflow with FCP/Avid etc?
A. We will not deliver any software, but we think that you will see a lot of software developers in a couple of weeks supporting DNG. IBC was a big deal for DNG as a new standard.

Q. Is the RAM removable?
A. We record to a memory cartridge that is on 80GB. Once full you can either change to another one, or off load the data to a computer.

Q. Will there be a external card reader, or do I always need to use the USB in the camera to transfer the files?
A. A memory cartridge reader is developed. It will be available at the same time as the camera and the memory cartridge. It has USB 2.0.

Q. Is the camera upgradable in the future?
A. We will in the future support Cinema DNG as one of the founders of that new standard. One of the reasons for on-board USB is also for the user to be able to update the firmware in the camera whenever needed.

Q. If I order today - when can I get my camera?
A. We will not announce any dates or numbers, but orders after IBC will most probably be shipped during February. So it is time to sign-up.

Q. Can I play recorded files through a monitor?
A. Yes, through your computer. Playback through the camera will be limited to viewfinder, external monitor and O-Led.

Q. Is It possible to get several mounts? And at what price?
A. You choose one mount for one camera. We support Leica, IMS, C and PL. Prices will be confirmed later during 2008.

Q. Will the camera work with zoom lenses?
A. Yes.

Q. How much will one 80GB Ikonoskop Memory Cartridge be?
A. No price for the memory card yet.

Q. What about Audio? Wich format, separate chanels? Mic/line?
A. Records 48kHz, stereo PCM.

Q, What is the estimated running time from the Sony battery?
A. Roughly 45 minutes. Maybe more, we are testing the power management at the moment.

Q. Where are the much promised footage? Any available video or still images?
A. We will post some footage in a couple of weeks on the website. Please subscribe to our RSS-feed for more information.

Q. How many minutes will it take to download footage from the card to the Computer?
A. Card reader will be released with production of the camera. USB 2.0 supports roughly 40MB/second. So 15 minutes of footage in 25 fps will take roughly the double to transfer to the computer. That is why we recommend at least 3 cards.

Q. Is there any tool on the camera to control the exposure?
A. There will be a on-camera histogram. That, and the viewfinder will help you to get the right exposure. And since it is RAW you will have more than enough information in each file to do post processing such as colour correction.

Q. What is the deposit versus the total price?
A. The deposit is €695 for the pre-order. Please e-mail your details to dii@ikonoskop.com with all your details and we will arrange with a money request through PayPal.

Q. What kind of output to an external monitor will you support?
A. We have a Lemo-monitor connector to our handheld monitor. Also, the HDMI can be used with most HD-monitors. Also AJA and Black Magic Design have small, portable converters for HDMI to SDI.

Im pretty excited about this too, I hope they deliver a camera without any issues. Also an instant "on" would be nice.

I love the design - a-minima-esque , however it's way too expensive ( 10k ) in the market it's about to face esp/ w/o lens and it's only giving us 60fps. I wish the scarlet team would look at this , esp. the viewfinder design and the horizontal concept . I remember in the goodoledays of super 8 when it was rumored aaton was going to release a super 8 camera with sync sound - I imagine this is what it would have looked like and it would have probably cost 10k but it's a brave new world.

I am not opposed to devoting a forum to Ikonoskop... anyone else?

Just added some better, high-res photos of the A-cam dII. See http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/digital-c...ii-photos.html

ikonoskop
 

Kinda leery of that whole thing- what's the tech support/third party NLE support likely to be like?

-Noah

Looking at the photo of the founders - they've obviously got a serious bug . I remember about a year ago there was a rumor that they were thinking about releasing a super 8 for about 5k - way too expensive considering what a used beaulieu goes for and not even considering the state of the super8 art . This was a far better business plan but they're going to be facing some serious competition from Red , and probably from the new sector being created with larger sensors . And they need to be offering package deals with lenses and accessories for less than 1/2 the cost . Who will buy this when Scarlet is released ? That said , it's a nice looking piece of hardware .

I think a new forum is warranted.

Remains to be seen how the company fares—those storage cartridges can't be cheap to make. But if they deliver a reliable first iteration of their line, they've IDed a clear, if narrow market niche.

On two criteria (sensor size/latitude & camera form), I see the A-cam as a step between a video-enabled dSLR and a Red camera.

They have a commitment to .DNG support from Adobe, according to Ikonoskop's Daniel Jonsäter.

In my opinion they should pursue Canopus / Grass Valley as well.

Given that no one but Mr. Jim Jannard and RED have any idea what Scarlet will look like, and the S/N on all the relevant forums has gone very, very low on that issue, I think everyone will have to wait for NAB 2009 to be able to make that judgement.

.....actually I believe I read November we will have the details of the new scarlet

I've decided that this camera will be my next camera. It is exactly what I have been looking for. Yep, there is a workflow involved, but the whole thing just looks so elegant and simple. Batteries should last forever. No cooling fans etc. No fuss.

And the fact that for 7k Euros you get a lens, battery, and one recording card just makes it sound better and better!

Now, I believe, judging from the literature, that this is a true 2/3" sensor (as opposed to normal 2/3" sensors that aren't actually 2/3") Anyone able to confirm that? Should mean slightly shallower depth of field than a normal 2/3" video camera, but not as unmanageable as 35mm.

For once I am really excited about this.

Slightly off-topic... this is the point where I insert my rant about the uselessness of measuring image sensors with imperial units based on an equivalency system held over from the old tube camera days. The industry needs to start expressing chip sizes with the metric system by stating their *actual* dimensions in millimeters, instead of their equivalent tube size, where 2/3rds is not really 2/3rds.

Ikonoskop has a chance to show some leadership here...

Adobe Premier Pro.

It's Adobe that's pushing CinemaDNG, so this should be fairly obvious.
With a camera being released designed around DNG, it should also seem obvious that the CinemaDNG spec. should be really, really close to being finalized.

Given all the noise there's been about Scarlett before, during, and after the latest changes, I'll start believing it when it is at the same level of reality as the a-cam dII.

I don't believe that Ikonoskop consider their product as anything other than a niche product for the professional market. Unless the new Scarlet becomes a much smaller, somewhat different creature, the Ikonoskop will have its own unique selling points which will be interest.

There are car manufacturers who produce small numbers of vehicles each year, but they still have their place along side the mass production manufacturers like Ford and quite a few produce better cars than Ford - if much more expensive. All have their place in the market and are just as valid as each other.

(Thank you Brian)

Can we keep this discussion on topic please? We already have a RED forum. Thanks in advance,

Amen to that. I've been away for a little while so missed most of this but based on the sensor size then i expect it to have slightly less DOF than the 2/3rds range. Based on my research for a custom camera project i did, the 2/3rds size is around 8.8mm across and this is 10.6mm which is also the same for 16mm (not S16 though which is 12.52mm). f1.6 on this would have the same DOF as f1.1 on 2/3rds which would be the same as f4.5 on 35mm. (These figures are all from some spreadsheet i made a while back and i don't have the original spec sources handy - please let me know if someone thinks im wrong)

I hope Kodak have improved vertical smearing because that was the biggest issue with the previous generation in a real life situation. Other than that i found the results from the previous sensors really nice.

This is exactly what i've been waiting for too. The only caveat about this i have is that it is a single sensor bayer and you cannot change the analogue gains for RGB separately which means that colour temperature balancing isn't as good as 3 chip solutions (i.e. you cannot analogue gain just the blue because there is only one sensor). The fact that you can get the full 12bit range helps here although a lot of that could be noise.

As simon says the workflow is ideal, and all you want is to capture the raw. I marvel at how little i use the controls on my EX1. Turn all the electronic crap off and it produces lovely images :)

Are there any images or footage online yet?

cheers
paul

It seems that the Scarlet comparison is an obvious one to make -

ProVideo Coalition.com: FRESHDV by Matthew Jeppsen & Kendal Miller

and also the comparison between the two companies and their capabilities seems relevant.

Paul, I understand most of this. By "single sensor bayer" do you mean "a single sensor [as opposed to 3 separate sensors] which uses a Bayer filter"—?

(As: Bayer filter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

If I have you right, can you describe the basic differences, on this issue, between a sensor like the Ikonoskop's and, say one of the new video-enabled dSLRs that have been burning up the various fora (Nikon D90, Canon 5D2)?

>NOTE: Hi, Chris! I'm not trying to change the topic. My main interest in this thread is the A-Cam & its place in the current ecosystem of cameras.<

I.e., if the analogue gain on X chip's color-channel can't be changed separately, and the result is unwanted noise, is that a problem on the larger chips in the dSLRs? Or are they so big they can hide/control the noise somehow?

If the dSLR's larger chips suffer from such noise as you point out, would it be fair to say—though you may've seen none of these cameras in person—that the Ikonoskop A-Cam's sensor would be intermediate, in the amount of noise, between a vidcam with a smaller sensor and such a dSLR?

Am I clear?

John,

Yes, a single sensor.

The main difference between the sensor in the ikonoskop and the dSLRs is that the ikonoskop is CCD based, dSLRs are mainly CMOS. The CCD gives a global shutter (so no skewing and wobbles) but the tradeoffs are usually lower resolution and frame rate. But for 1080p (as opposed to dSLRs multi megapixel resolutions) this is fine. On a personal level i've found better colour reproduction from CCDs, i've found that most CMOS go through a lot of colour correction to get a decent image. Of course technology marches on and these differences will eventually change.

For colour balancing (or white balancing) you want to be able to increase gain of the various RGB channels. CCDs can have analogue gain increased on the chip but only for the whole chip. So if you wanted to increase blue to get a better response in tungsten then on a single chip you can't without increase RG as well. (I believe it is technically possible on a CMOS to increase gain on a per pixel basis but i've not first hand seen this being done).

However the sensor in question outputs 12 bit raw and so there is some latitude in there for white balancing after capture, depending on how noisy the sensor is. I would say that you're not going to see 12 bit of clean colour range by a long shot though.

I like this camera because it's simple and does what is needed. The sensor is a known design but has had many iterations of improvement. It has big pixels (good for low light) and good colour response. It's exactly what you need out of a digital cinematography camera.

60fps isn't so bad, things to look for would be differences across the image because to get 60fps off 1080p the sensor will have multiple taps that a read simulataneously. I think 4 in this case, which means each quarter of the image is running through separate onboard hardware on the sensor which if not carefully calibrated can result in slightly different images (especially as temperature changes for example). So you can look at the cost of the sensor but you cannot easily factor in the effort ikonoscope have done to get a working camera (with firmware). It really isn't as simple as get a sensor and rig some laptop and capture...

It will be interesting what ikonoscope have done with regard to noise reduction, calibration and bad pixel mapping. DNG supports bad pixel mapping and even black calibration data. They might have taken RAW to it's ultimate conclusion and actually given the sensor data warts and all in which case there would need to be clean up in post. Im not sure what tools are available to actually do this at the moment...

i hope this helps or is of interest
paul

Both, thanks. I agree that Ikonoskop's A-Cam looks interesting—a welcome divergence from the usual consumer-influenced video camera design. The simplicity appeals greatly.

I'm concerned about vertical smear on the sensor but don't have enough experience with the subtleties of chip technology to worry any more than that. As far as I know, Ikonoskop haven't posted any footage or frames.

If anything it appears that the only real worry with this camera will be possible high amounts of aliasing.