Broken Clips

Carl Hicks · May 24th, 2006, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Beaty

JVC Customer Support is really great. I mean it. What other company monitors a private web board and calls individual users when they have problems? Not many.

Yet Carl and Ken Freed are very proactive in trying to help. They want happy customers.

I am working with Ken now to try to narrow down the problem of broken clips with post "A" cameras and FCPro. I just shot 20 minutes of one shot with one of our 3 cameras. It just got back from the upgrade service center. We'll see what happens...

Dave

OK our test with Camera #2 went well. Out of 20 minutes of material, no broken clips to report! This was captured via a BR-HD50.

Next to test Camera #3

Dave, thanks for the kind words! We do want happy customers. I like to eat, and I've got three kids to raise and send to college!

Let us know how camera #1 and #3 come out in your tests.

Regards, Carl

Nate Weaver · May 27th, 2006, 01:58 AM

Bitten by this bug, finally.

5 camera multicam concert shoot last Wed, digitizing everything tonight. Each roll, even though the cameras rolled at the beginning of the show and never stopped, has at least 8 breaks in it. One camera has 34.

This means I have approximately 100 clips to sync to rough audio before I can start cutting. Unbelievable. I should bill Apple for the overage.

[edit: Alright, so 100 clips was an exaggeration. Maybe 40. I had a breakthrough when I learned every break lost, on average, 4 seconds and 4 frames. so just advancing each clip that amount on the timeline and rechecking sync and tweaking by a frame or two saved me a lot of time. 4 cameras synced so far, one to go.]

Dave Beaty · May 27th, 2006, 07:03 AM

As I mentioned I did an hour of testing on our camera #2. No breaks. This is an "A" upgrade. Then one of our producers took it out and shot an hour for a timelapse. He said it produced numerous breaks on capture on his FCPro setup! So now I'm really curious.

He was using a CU-VH1 deck, not the BR-HD50, so I'm wondering if it's that deck or some strange intermittent problem. When I tested it, no breaks. When he uses it an hour later, breaks.

I'll let you know what I find out.

One question about this problem. So far, I've heard it's a FCPro problem, that other NLE's don't produce the issue on capture. Why? If it's true, can't apple address it in software?

Dave Beaty

Nate Weaver · May 27th, 2006, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Beaty

As I mentioned I did an hour of testing on our camera #2. No breaks. This is an "A" upgrade. Then one of our producers took it out and shot an hour for a timelapse. He said it produced numerous breaks on capture on his FCPro setup!

Isn't just as simple as native HDV capture has the problem, but AIC capture doesn't?

Scott Shuster · May 28th, 2006, 12:21 PM

ORIGINAL POST: Is anyone experiencing this problem in 720p24 or 720p25? Reading this thread it APPEARS to be strictly a 720p30 problem -- but do we know that for sure?

NEXT DAY UPDATE: Oops! I asked this question before I learned that FCP does not yet have a 720p24 import function. As the problem being discussed is 100% about an anomaly discovered while using FCP, my question is not yet answerable.

Craig Donaldson · May 28th, 2006, 02:30 PM

I think i must have been the first person on this forum to come across this problem last year and i was pulling my hair out to find a solution. I had just shot a job for an important client of around 30 tapes and on 1 or two tapes i had dozens and dozens of tc breaks and a loss of a few seconds of vision between each break .

ABSOLUTELY MADDENING!

The only work around the editor could find was to import thru imovie HD.

However......... I have tried to replicate this problem and cant. It's never happened since. I have a theory though........

Perhaps, just maybe perhaps, it has something to do with the voltage level of the camera. From memory on both tapes i encountered this problem i recall having a nearly flat battery.....i am running idx v locks and seem to remember changing batts around the time the tape was shot.

Any thoughts boffins?

Craig D

Steve Mullen · May 28th, 2006, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate Weaver

Isn't just as simple as native HDV capture has the problem, but AIC capture doesn't?

That seems to be the case, but AIC isn't CAPTURED.

HDV is captured and converted on the fly to AIC. So the HDV capture software used when one chooses "AIC" operates differently than the HDV capture software used when one chooses "HDV."

Specifically, to encode AIC each HDV frame must be decoded to YUV. If a frame(s) is screwed-up, the software creates the best YUV frame it can. The tape fault is automatically cleaned-up. Think of it as a DOC circuit. The each YUV frame is encoded to an I-frame. (Same thing must be done by CineForm and Canopus Intermediate codec.)

NOTE1: I'll bet HDV camcorder and decks also fix bad frames. Some Hi8 units had great DOC circuits while others didn't.

When you capture as "native HDV" -- when a flawed frame is encountered, FCP has a choice. It could/should "repair" the flawed-frame and put it into the disk file. But, it seems that FCP simply aborts the GOP and then starts again with a new GOP. The 4 second delay is the time needed to close the current file and open a new one for writing.

Over the next week I'll check Liquid and Canopus to see what they do.

NOTE2: I've been copying recorded tapes to a Focus HDD and finding it randomly aborts the transfer.

Apple won't "fix" anything native HDV since they are writing new code for 24p, 25p, 50p, and 60p. Who knows when we'll see this!?!

Frankly, FCE 3.5 seems an ideal way to do HDV capture to AIC.

Melvin Torrens · May 29th, 2006, 06:41 AM

I agree with Craig Donaldson about the battery power causing the breaks in the timecode. Two weeks ago i filmed a wedding and while capturing i noticed one tape was divided into 66 clips and most of them under 1 second. Not all of the clips though, all the shots at the beggining of the tape were perfect but after 20 minutes the timecode breaks started and at the end of the tape a couple of 10 minute shots were fine... the first shots i was handheld using a fully recharged battery and followed the couple around greeting people, after about 35 minutes or so i switched to the tripod and plugged the camera to the AC adapter. All the shots that were filmed handheld using battery when the battery was around 7.0V or less were splitted.
This was not the first time i noticed these breaks and each time i have noticed missing footage was when i was using battery.
To capture the footage i used iMovie HD after various attemps to capture with FCP.

Dave Beaty · June 1st, 2006, 09:02 AM

I did more testing today with our Camera "2". The one I had tested in the studio and had no TC breaks. Later, a producer took this camera out and shot a time lapse...an hour of one shot of a sunset. He had lots of breaks during capture via his G5. So I tried importing the footage on my system. Here's what I found:

Captured via FCPro 5.1, "A" version HD100 HDV 720p30. BR-HD50 VTR , Quality 1 meter Firewire cable.

In about 40 minutes of one continous shot, I had 3 TC breaks and aborts and 1 "stream error" abort.

FCPro is set to stop and alert on TC break.

Each time, I would rewind a few minutes and start again. In each instance of TC break, it would recapture the same TC without error!!!! IOW, the 2nd attempt would work fine. No stop or break, no visual disruption of image.

Now 30 some minutes in there is a "stream error". This time, it's repeatable.
Each time I rewind and it hits this frame, the error happens. No visual disruption, when I just play it back past this break.

So, there you have some more pieces of the puzzle.

Dave Beaty

Sergio Barbosa · June 1st, 2006, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melvin Torrens

To capture the footage i used iMovie HD after various attemps to capture with FCP.

Hi!

Melvin, in which format did you capture in iMovie HD? Was it shot in 720p25?

Thanks!
Sergio Barbosa

Yoochul Chong · June 2nd, 2006, 07:36 AM

i'm having sync issues with capturing with imovieHD, does anybody know a solution to the problem? i'm capturing from my HD-100 to a dual 2.3 G5 powermac.

yooch

Melvin Torrens · June 3rd, 2006, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sergio Barbosa

Hi!

Melvin, in which format did you capture in iMovie HD? Was it shot in 720p25?

Thanks!
Sergio Barbosa

I captured in 29.97fps the footage was recorded at 720p - 29.97 fps

I then used the share function to export it to Quicktime using the HDV 720p30 codec, at the moment im doing a test to see when the timecode breaks come, i filmed 1 hour of footage using battery and with my second camera i filmed the lcd panel to see the battery level. If the timecode breaks when the voltage changes then i'll find out if it's the battery or not. I'll post about it once i have looked through the material.

Melvin Torrens · June 3rd, 2006, 08:50 AM

Well as i said i filmed 1 hour continously using 2 cameras with the second camera filming at the lcd panel of the HD101 to see if the TC breaks occur when the battery level changes. The HD101 footage was shot at 720p30 and i captured using FCP capture now with HDV 720p 30 codec. I had 3 stream errors in this tape but no timecode breaks like before that TC would jump back several minutes, when i looked at the other cameras footage the stream errors were not when battery level dropped. Im using a 1.5 m FW cable (is this too long to cause some lag or something?).

Guess i'll try to capture using AIC next...

Hornady Setiawan · June 3rd, 2006, 09:56 AM

have you guys tried capturing on a pc using HDVSplit ?

Dave Beaty · June 3rd, 2006, 09:59 AM

With the hour long test I did with the footage of a sunset, I was using the Anton Bauer Dionics which power the camera for many hours - so I don't think power was an issue in our case.

Again the odd thing, was the TC error was not reproducible in FCPro. The TC break errors happened on the first capture, but rewinding and recapturing the same scene did not break...

BUT, when a "stream error" occurs, that is reproducible.

Dave Beaty

May 27th, 2006, 01:58 AM	#47
Nate Weaver Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 2,100	Bitten by this bug, finally. 5 camera multicam concert shoot last Wed, digitizing everything tonight. Each roll, even though the cameras rolled at the beginning of the show and never stopped, has at least 8 breaks in it. One camera has 34. This means I have approximately 100 clips to sync to rough audio before I can start cutting. Unbelievable. I should bill Apple for the overage. [edit: Alright, so 100 clips was an exaggeration. Maybe 40. I had a breakthrough when I learned every break lost, on average, 4 seconds and 4 frames. so just advancing each clip that amount on the timeline and rechecking sync and tweaking by a frame or two saved me a lot of time. 4 cameras synced so far, one to go.] __________________ My Work: nateweaver.net Last edited by Nate Weaver; May 27th, 2006 at 03:06 AM.

May 28th, 2006, 12:21 PM	#50
Scott Shuster Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NYC Posts: 125	ORIGINAL POST: Is anyone experiencing this problem in 720p24 or 720p25? Reading this thread it APPEARS to be strictly a 720p30 problem -- but do we know that for sure? NEXT DAY UPDATE: Oops! I asked this question before I learned that FCP does not yet have a 720p24 import function. As the problem being discussed is 100% about an anomaly discovered while using FCP, my question is not yet answerable. Last edited by Scott Shuster; May 29th, 2006 at 07:12 AM. Reason: Answering my own question

May 29th, 2006, 06:41 AM	#53
Melvin Torrens Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Spain Posts: 46	Battery Issue I agree with Craig Donaldson about the battery power causing the breaks in the timecode. Two weeks ago i filmed a wedding and while capturing i noticed one tape was divided into 66 clips and most of them under 1 second. Not all of the clips though, all the shots at the beggining of the tape were perfect but after 20 minutes the timecode breaks started and at the end of the tape a couple of 10 minute shots were fine... the first shots i was handheld using a fully recharged battery and followed the couple around greeting people, after about 35 minutes or so i switched to the tripod and plugged the camera to the AC adapter. All the shots that were filmed handheld using battery when the battery was around 7.0V or less were splitted. This was not the first time i noticed these breaks and each time i have noticed missing footage was when i was using battery. To capture the footage i used iMovie HD after various attemps to capture with FCP.

May 27th, 2006, 07:03 AM	#48
Dave Beaty Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ft. Myers, FL Posts: 240	As I mentioned I did an hour of testing on our camera #2. No breaks. This is an "A" upgrade. Then one of our producers took it out and shot an hour for a timelapse. He said it produced numerous breaks on capture on his FCPro setup! So now I'm really curious. He was using a CU-VH1 deck, not the BR-HD50, so I'm wondering if it's that deck or some strange intermittent problem. When I tested it, no breaks. When he uses it an hour later, breaks. I'll let you know what I find out. One question about this problem. So far, I've heard it's a FCPro problem, that other NLE's don't produce the issue on capture. Why? If it's true, can't apple address it in software? Dave Beaty

May 28th, 2006, 02:30 PM	#51
Craig Donaldson Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 80	I think i must have been the first person on this forum to come across this problem last year and i was pulling my hair out to find a solution. I had just shot a job for an important client of around 30 tapes and on 1 or two tapes i had dozens and dozens of tc breaks and a loss of a few seconds of vision between each break . ABSOLUTELY MADDENING! The only work around the editor could find was to import thru imovie HD. However......... I have tried to replicate this problem and cant. It's never happened since. I have a theory though........ Perhaps, just maybe perhaps, it has something to do with the voltage level of the camera. From memory on both tapes i encountered this problem i recall having a nearly flat battery.....i am running idx v locks and seem to remember changing batts around the time the tape was shot. Any thoughts boffins? Craig D

June 1st, 2006, 09:02 AM	#54
Dave Beaty Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ft. Myers, FL Posts: 240	I did more testing today with our Camera "2". The one I had tested in the studio and had no TC breaks. Later, a producer took this camera out and shot a time lapse...an hour of one shot of a sunset. He had lots of breaks during capture via his G5. So I tried importing the footage on my system. Here's what I found: Captured via FCPro 5.1, "A" version HD100 HDV 720p30. BR-HD50 VTR , Quality 1 meter Firewire cable. In about 40 minutes of one continous shot, I had 3 TC breaks and aborts and 1 "stream error" abort. FCPro is set to stop and alert on TC break. Each time, I would rewind a few minutes and start again. In each instance of TC break, it would recapture the same TC without error!!!! IOW, the 2nd attempt would work fine. No stop or break, no visual disruption of image. Now 30 some minutes in there is a "stream error". This time, it's repeatable. Each time I rewind and it hits this frame, the error happens. No visual disruption, when I just play it back past this break. So, there you have some more pieces of the puzzle. Dave Beaty

June 2nd, 2006, 07:36 AM	#56
Yoochul Chong Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 72	i'm having sync issues with capturing with imovieHD, does anybody know a solution to the problem? i'm capturing from my HD-100 to a dual 2.3 G5 powermac. yooch

June 3rd, 2006, 08:50 AM	#58
Melvin Torrens Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Spain Posts: 46	Well as i said i filmed 1 hour continously using 2 cameras with the second camera filming at the lcd panel of the HD101 to see if the TC breaks occur when the battery level changes. The HD101 footage was shot at 720p30 and i captured using FCP capture now with HDV 720p 30 codec. I had 3 stream errors in this tape but no timecode breaks like before that TC would jump back several minutes, when i looked at the other cameras footage the stream errors were not when battery level dropped. Im using a 1.5 m FW cable (is this too long to cause some lag or something?). Guess i'll try to capture using AIC next...

June 3rd, 2006, 09:56 AM	#59
Hornady Setiawan Regular Crew Join Date: May 2005 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia Posts: 103	have you guys tried capturing on a pc using HDVSplit ?

June 3rd, 2006, 09:59 AM	#60
Dave Beaty Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ft. Myers, FL Posts: 240	With the hour long test I did with the footage of a sunset, I was using the Anton Bauer Dionics which power the camera for many hours - so I don't think power was an issue in our case. Again the odd thing, was the TC error was not reproducible in FCPro. The TC break errors happened on the first capture, but rewinding and recapturing the same scene did not break... BUT, when a "stream error" occurs, that is reproducible. Dave Beaty