Need some advice
 

Hello everyone, I guess I may reopen this thread with a bit of a simplistic question but I am still a little on the new side to all of this.

I am an amateur indie film maker, having only made things previously either with a buddy and his camera or using my high school's old dv camera. I'm also a university student and do not have such a large budget, so would be looking at this as a hobby. Maybe shooting a wedding for fun once in a while. I also have a idea for a short documentary I would like to do for my university club I am in.

So I know first of all I will need a nice lightweight tripod, wide angle lens, nice bag to fit all my gear, and a shotgun mic with a nice windscreen. Eventually a light kit to.

What I am unsure of is what actual camera to purchase. I am contemplating between a HV30(tape is still hear but on it's way out), HG20(prob not the best quality) or a HF-10(seems like may be the winner). The other thing on my mind was to maybe keep saving up till I can find a more Prosumer camera used or something.

Some things I already have are a MacBook Pro, and Custom built Windows XP machine with Intel C2Q 600, 2x 8800GTS 512mb SLI'd, 3GB of crucial Balistix. And for software I have iMovie 09', FCP, FCE, Adobe CS4 Master Sweet, and Sony Vegas 9.

I got the MBP from my neighbor who was a Prof at the university and retired and gave it to me since I enrolled at the uni. So he has all the University Software they gave him on it.

Tape is certainly on the way out but I'd not let that worry you Brad. When you're out there shooting, making decisions as to focal length, aperture, position, movement, lighting, mic placement and 1001 other things, the way your camera is storing all this information is but a dot in a square mile of virgin snow.

Thing with the HV30 is that it's so cheap and so good brand new you'd have to find a pretty beat-up FX1 (say) to have it offered at the same price. OK, the FX1 would give you proper access to the manual controls and a lot more kudos as the DOP, but on-screen results are what matter.

If you're any good as a filmmaker then what you clasp between your palms matters not a lot. It's ideas we're capturing, and an EX3 gives you no more ideas than an HV10.

tom.

This is a very interesting forum, much different from all the children asking the same "What's the best camera?" question over and over on another camcorder website. Like they could afford the best. But as I've learned in 39 years of still photography, the most important thing in shooting is the knowledge in the head of the person behind the viewfinder. So what are good books with which the rank amateur, such as myself, can learn the basics? Another forum I subscribe to, Porsche 912 Board, has a thread which lists the necessary books. If would probably be a great help and cut down on unnecessary posts.
Jock Ellis
P.S.
Since this is a real name website, I had to use my real name, John, but I don't answer to it.

With 39 years as a stills photographer Jock - and presumably the last 5 or so in digital, you're well placed to enter the world of digital filmmaking and you certainly won't need the back2basic books. Just make sure your camcorder lets you access (easily and quickly) the iris, gain, shutter speed and white balance, and all your photographic experience can let the subjects move within the frame.

If you're very new to audio you may have to learn about mics and placing, but I'd say you're well clear of the starting blocks.

tom.

We do have the Read About It forum which references a wealth of printed material from basic exposure and lens theory to how to produce a motion picture. However, printed books by their nature aren't an up-to-the-minute resource for fast-moving topics like brand new cameras and software updates. Thusly, DVinfo!

Thank you for your very honest answer. I did some looking around and noticed a lot of people saying the hv30 has a lot more natural colour and features then the hf10. I guess I am just a young techy thinking if it is faster and non moving parts it's better. I will definitely give the hv30 a shot. And does the HDV tapes make a difference to the actual regular DV tapes? And what tape for the HV30 should i use for that matter. I don't have the slightest clue about tapes other then they say to use the same one type always and some people mentioned Sony Premium tapes were best. Can you use the tapes more then once?

Yes, of course you can use tapes more than once. The second time you use them is when you play them to feed your computer. You then know that's a tried and tested tape, and more valuable than a new untested one.

Sony Premiums are very good. I'd stick to them. You could use the 5x more expensive Sony HDV tape, but the signal it records is not a digit better than the cheaper tape.

tom.

I stopped by a local store here "Henry's" who's price's are bloated like you wouldn't believe. But used it as good reference so i can see what i want to buy at B&H lol.

Really liked the HV30. So I compiled a little list of everything I need to start. Think it's a good solid list for my first time buy.

- Canon HV 30 - 599
- Canon WD-H43 0.7x Wide Angle - 149
- Vista by Davis & Sanford Attaras Grounder Tripod - 79
- Azden ECZ-990 Shotgun mic - 59
- Canon GB2400 camcorder bag - 35

Total $923.80 or $1211.46 CND with tax and shipping for me

I did a little research again, Canon recommends the Panasonic tapes. Which a lot of people here tend to agree for this specific model HV30. It uses a dry lubricant. The Panasonic AY-DVM63PQ is 2.89 a pop at B&H so seems like good choice.

Thanks for all your help again. And if you have any recommendations, or areas for improvement for me on a tight budget, please post.

Well spotted - you'll certainly need the wide-converter with the HV30 (you know it's been replaced by the HV40?).

Sony and Panasonic tapes have long matched in their lube specs. It was many years ago (late 90s) when the differences were causing head clogs.

Might be worth looking at the Rode mics - excellent value.

- I can't really justify myself spending an extra $400 for just no 24p pull down when i can do that in post.
- Them having the same lube just makes it it an easy, no worry choice to just go with the cheaper one of the same quality.
- I will definitely see if I can squander a few more pennies for the Rode mic.

deciding on what to buy
 

I'm a 20+ year Mac expert (20 years!) and have an FCP workflow. I'm also a Nikon still shooter for years. I'm trying to figure out what will give me the best bang for my buck. I'm debating between three formats right now: HDV, AVCHD or direct-to-Quicktime (JVC).

The HMC150 has been recommended to me, but I'm concerned about AVCHD and the whole transcoding issue. Of course, I've read and been told it's better than HDV...however for ease, the JVC GY-HM100U records as .mov files -- no transcoding needed.

My camera budget is up to $4K, but I'd rather not spend it all on the camera itself...if I can find something I like and does what I want. I'll be shooting a variety of things from documentaries to webvideo to weddings.

Anyone have any experience with the JVC Quicktime cam (GY-HM100U) or the Canon XH-A1S? I'm grasping at straws for help.

Thanks.

(If this looks familiar, I posted to a different thread and received nary a glance, so I thought this would be a better place for it.)

Is there anyone willing to help me? Please?

Sorry you're left hanging Jay. I'm not able to help you because I don't have any specific experience with either of the two cameras you mention. Although I can state that I have long been a fan of Canon's cameras - and not quite as much for the JVC, mostly because of build - but I haven't used any JVC units in a while.

-Jon

Jay - as a MacHead I would scope out the new JVC cameras. My eye is on the new JVC 700 with the Canon lens.

OTOH - The Canon Vixia HF 100 puts out a stunning picture (AVCHD).

The Canon XH-A1S has a lot going for it BUT I do not want to go tape based nor will I pay big $$$ for an aftermarket SSD recording option. The Canon is - IMO - overdue for a "real" upgrade.

More and more, my decision will be about image quality and I'll just have to work around whatever codec issues (if any) there are.

Jay,

From the reviews I've read from both cameras, I'd say go with the JVC for the best work flow with Final Cut since it was designed for that. The Panasonic seems to be a great choice but like you've mentioned, the transcoding has being an issue with some users. Some have had a great experience, others have had frustrating ones.

Also look around in their respective forums and find any threads relating to their work flow. The Panasonic has being out for sometime now while the JVC has barely begun shipping and no definite answer can be given towards a long-term performance.

Here are two reviews done by Philip Bloom, thought it may be useful since he's a Final Cut user:

Philip Bloom CVP TV: Review of JVC GY HM 100

Philip Bloom CVP TV: Review of JVC GY-HM 700



As far as the Canon...it's tape based. There's nothing wrong with that, but if you're looking for a "hassle free" work flow, stick to the Panasonic and JVC.

Adalberto - just for clarity - the Canon Vixia I mentioned records to solid state cards - I use the Transcend cards and have had only positive experience thus far. The latest Vixia HF S100 is even more capable and is about $1,000 USD

Sony HD Xr500 vs. Cannon HFS10
 

I am debating the two above cameras. EDIT: I would also like to include the HV40. forgot to mention it but it is also in the back of my mind.
My Concerns:
XR500 - 16mb/s bitrate seems alot smaller compared to cannons 24
- image is "cooler" and not as sharp as cannons
- attempts to make auto-everything and less control
HFS10 - OIS is not as strong as sonys
- flash memory? everything I had heard said this was still not the way to go >_<
- poorer in low light?
I'm not looking for just a point and shoot camera and I need a camera that can shoot in low light for snowboarding films(night locations dont always have good plugs for lighting, therefor +1 to sony) and something that can keep up with fast pace/jumpy looking shots as well and not look terrible (why the OIS is a big plus(+1 sony) but at the same time everything I have seen says cannon has a much better picture. Every time I decide on one camera I change my mind half a second later. And yes I have read the vs. discussions but I would really like advice on the make-or-break points.

1. how much better is the OIS? can i get away without it if using a tripod?
2. how much more control does the cannon have?
3. flash memory vs. 16mbs.. is either that big of a draw back?
4. can cannon be adjusted to have just as good of a low-light picture?
5. I havent read anything about the field depth on either, any comments?

I have watched these comparisons for reference
SONY XR520 vs Canon HF S10 in low light on Vimeo
XR520 and HF S10 in day light on Vimeo

Thanks to any/everyone that can help!
ps first time post lol

I'm a digital film maker in college (just finished my second year), and I have access to everything I need to make a video (camera, mics, lights, C-stands/flags, ect), but the cameras they have are 8 year old JVC mini DV cameras, and they kinda suck. I've been googleing and looking around these forums (which I found via google), and I've decided on getting the Canon XH A1 (or A1S). I was thinking about getting the XL2 used on ebay, but I think I would rather have some of the newer technology (aka HD).

I have a friend that has the canon GL2, so I want to stick with canon so that if we shoot footage on both cameras we can easily combine them and share batteries, ect.

Is there any major differences in the XH A1 and A1S that makes it worth spending the extra thousand on it? All I've really found is the A1S has a 6 pin firewire vs 4pin, and has a few minor updates.

What is a good tripod I should be looking at getting? I just need something to hold it steady and let me pan/tilt. I'd rather not spend more than $150 on it. Are there any other accessories I should get? Keep in mind that I can use the schools lights, mics, ect when ever I want (well except a few months when I'm off for summer).

Is the XH A1 (or A1S) a good choice? I've been making short videos with my friends on a sony handycam for a few years, and I think its time for something decent. Between using my friends GL2 and the schools camera I feel like I have a decent enough knowledge of cameras to know how to work it.

I dont have enough money saved up right now (only about $2k), but I'm going to get a job soon to save up some more, and hopefully buy it in the next 2 months.

Thanks.

Eric -
There's a good thread in the AVCHD section, but I think you've already seen that?

1. night and day difference in the OIS, the XR amazingly good, manages to keep a fairly steady shot if you can keep it aimed. My last experience with Canon OIS was the HV20, wasn't nearly as good as Sonys at that time, may be better now, but it's not going to match the XR.

2. Canon has LOTS more manual control, vs. Sony - if you're shooting action where you may not be able to adjust the camera anyway, the button/knob of the Sony could be enough.

3. Nothing wrong with flash that I know of, keep in mind the XR has a HDD, and can take only so much jostling (I haven't managed to shut it down, but it does have a sensor to protect itself), sometimes flash can have advantages, but you can use a MS Duo in the XR.
16Mbps vs 24Mbps is another thing, some people say they see no difference, others feel it's important for motion - I've no complaints with the Sony bitrate, but YMMV...

4. Depends on your opinion of what a "good low light picture" is - IMO, NO, the Canon isn't as good as the XR in low light, you'll get more usable image out of the XR, some are happy with the Canon in low light, but I don't see it in comparison footage posted.

5. Depth of Field... these are small cameras, not going to get a lot of DoF out of them without some trickery... nature of the beast.

HTH

It's a good choice in that it's a lot of camera for the money, it's tried and tested and the s version has tweaked a few of the moans made by users of the original. Except that the top screen is still too small and still too low resolution for my (and lots of others) liking.

It's the last of the tape fed HDV cameras, that's for sure, but that's no problem in my view. Sony with their V1, Z 5 and 7 are on their last MiniDV cams too, as SDHC cards become the norm. So should you be looking at the Panasonic HMC150? I think so. But then again the Canon has that wonderful 20x zoom.

You should certainly be looking at a more expensive tripod, or you'll be binning it within a year and still going out to spend $450. Look at tripods as a 'buy once keep for ever' item (like good microphones), and look at the Manfrotto 525 / 503HDV.

tom.

RE: Dave Blackhurst's post
 

That helped me alot, thanks for the reply.
I think I am going to do a little research more into the upcoming HV40 and make my decision then. Native 24p sounds enticing to say the least

I am looking to purchase a camcorder to record girls high school basketball games . This is not meant as a high production effort, just some videos of our daughter playing for her high school. Budget is in the $2500 range, to include the addition of an external mic (tripod already available).

What are my best options? I understand for motion that I would want 60p, but the costs and my given budget would seem to prohibit that. The second issue is low light shooting. Having attempted to shoot these games with an SLR, it is not trivial to get the required shutter speed even with fast f/2.8 zooms. Usually fast primes (f/1.4-f/2) are needed. I would imagine that this is another consideration in selecting a camcorder.

These do not need to be professional quality recordings, but hopefully they are videos that are at least watchable for the parents. I am not looking necessarily for the best camcorders to purchase. I am mostly interested in which features and specs I should be researching.

the HV30 should be plenty for the mentioned requirements. Well within budget and you get HD, widescreen, 10x zoom, etc...

Also consider the old Panasonic DVX100b.

JS

The HV30 certainly is cheap enough. I could get three HV30s within my budget and still have money left over. Too bad I wasn't trying to capture the games from different angles.

I recall reading about the HV30 last fall when I was first considering taping the games instead of using an SLR. If I am not mistaken, the price of the HV30 appears to have risen in the past 6-7 months, similar to the spike in prices for SLR gear.

The Panasonic DVX100b is an interesting option, probably one I would consider if I had some extensive experience using a camcorder. But my experience is limited to a handful of times using an Elura 70.

I can't go along with this recommendation Michael because of the fact that when switched into any of the DVX's 16:9 modes it's always soft. Not surprising really as it was designed in the 4:3 days, and we've all moved on - as will a lot of your basketball player clients. Go for the Canon HV30 or 40.

tom.

panasonic gh1
 

If the GH1 is available in your area now, that's the one I'd get. It has 720 60p. Good enough to freeze some of that motion. The GH1 is U$1,500 give or take depending on where you are. The lens it comes with is a 14-140mm. It's a good all around lens for events, but it may still be too slow. You can get some old nikon mount lenses with f1.8 or so apertures to go for the low light. There's plenty of ai-s lenses floating about. Of course get the adapter for nikon. You understand that you will lose AF here?!

All in all, you can get within U$2,500 for those. You might even get a decent rode videomic for U$150 for your sound.


-----------
To Jay Rubin,

You should also consider the GH1 for indie and events work. You have the control of the larger cameras without the cost. It will also be good for low light. Much better than 1/3" sensors because it is 4/3". And DOF control will be super, especially if you mount nikon or FD canon lenses to it. Fast primes would be great.

You'd have spare to get the HV-30's (very good cameras and good in low light too and manual override for your 2nd cameras. Or you can get an HF-100/10/11 or even the newer hf-s100's or the sony xr-500/520. But if you stick with the Panny GH1, you could get the HV-30 for around U$600, and maybe an hf-11 for U$700. You'd have 3 cameras to work wtih an lots of spare cash for other things like good mics (I will be using Rode, cheap but good audio), spare batteries, etc. I think you will be within the U$4,000 budget if you spend wisely.

It would be nice to get 2 x GH1 for U$3,000. At this time, Panasonic is not selling the GH1 as body only or with the cheaper kit lens. It comes standard with the 14-140mm lens. You can just sell of the one of lens for around U$700 and get nikon or some other manual lenses in its place. You'd still have one of the gh1 with the 14-140mm and you can use the other gh1 body with manual lenses. Two GH1's will give you better creative control on a lot of things especially low light performance and shallow DOF. At the most, you can trade that U$700 for a HV-30 with an extra batt.

I'd suggest you do a research on the GH1. Check out Phil Bloom's impression of the lens and some of his shots with the camera.

Another option is to 5d mk2. The June 2 firmware update will let you get control of the aperture, shutter speed and ISO. Again, you can use nikon or canon lenses with it. If you go canon, the ability to change the settings is much easier. And the DOF and IQ of the 5d mk2 is to die for! Just get an HV-30 as your 2nd camera and I think you can still be within your U$4k budget. It will be very tight though, especially if you still have to buy some mics or other stuff. You are going to need spare batts, and lenses, that is why the U$4k, with a 50 f1.4, or some other lenses if you don't have them is going to eat up all that budget. This is why I'd rather take a close look at the Panasonic GH1.

New Camera
 

Hi. I need some help getting into the HD scene, fast. I have shot professional video since 1980, as a news cameraman with Ikegamis to Sony Betacams. Then I left the big city and I purchased, after a VX1000, a JVC GY-DV500 mainly for its true manual lens (I couldn't shoot well with auto focus and poor iris controls back then) and affordable price seeing as I have to do something other than video for a living. I have been asked to travel to shoot HD for an online launch and TV handouts. I am looking at the Canon XH-A1S, again for affordability plus professional audio inputs and manual control. Anything else a long term video shooter like me should be considering in a tight budget, say $4000 for the camera and an extra battery? Other accessories I will need for this or another camera? Will my Miller Series 20 tripod be okay with such a small, light camera? Do I use miniDV tapes for HDV, or is there a good tapeless alternative that I could afford?
All comments welcome and appreciated.
Pam

Pam, the XH-A1s is a tried and tested camera with a great following, so you'd not go far wrong. It will be the last of the MiniDV tape drives though, and the world and his brother move over to flash memory and greater compression. The Z5 and the HMC150 are worth a look, too. The Z5 has the option of recording to CF cards, the 150 only records to SDHC.

I can't live without an on-board video light and a wide-angle converter, and no tripod's too big if you can lug it about. You'll also need spare batteries, a lanc controller, a microfibre lens cleaning cloth and a head cleaning tape.

Then there's sound. An on-board shotgun (K6+ME66 + Softie, say) and a radio mic (G2) will see you through a lot of shoots and travel with you as you change your camera and PC over the years.

tom.

HD Camera
 

Thanks Tom. I have most everything I need--good lavs, Sennheiser wireless, light kit, cables, great sticks--but the new camera and its accessories. I still like cheap tape for archival reasons, and I haven't heard great things about AVCHD in editing (I am a longtime Edius user). I like the idea of tapeless recording, sure, the saved time would be great. Looks to me like the Sony Z5U is the camera of the day, especially with the dual recording, but it may be a bit pricey for my part-time needs. Still...
Pam

Pam, one to consider, although a few thousand more than budget is the Sony S270U. I'm seeing them come down in price considerably on the used or b-stock market. It has the full sized body that you're used to, long tape length with full sized DVCAM tapes, includes the ability to shoot to compact flash and tape at the same time. And the big one for me, as I shoot in the studio is the HDSDI output. Not to mention the full sized camera look and feel. Just something to think about for a few grand more you can have features usually found on cameras costing way more. I compared the S270U to HPX500 in the studio with each going into an AJA capture card and actually found the S270U to have a cleaner picture. Pretty amazing as the HPX500 cost twice as much. Just something to think about, otherwise, the Canon XH-A1 is a great bang for buck camera or dare I say to take a look at the Canon 5D Mark II with a few lenses and a portable audio recorder...

price range: $2,500.

Project: Documentary, and low light situations, fast movements/sporting events/car driving.
Audio: good audio outputs needed.
Video: Standard Definition im fine with. HD im fine with, either or.

as of cameras go, i've been researching on what popular documentaries are being filmed with. I see it doesnt take much for picture quality, as of i'm a strong believer in story first, camera later.

I know the dvx100 will go down as an all time classic camera, but is it an ending technology to go and buy a used for around 1.8? just wondering. also im aware of the dvx's non native 16:9 format, but letterbox basically makes it that by chopping down the 4:3. also if im filming letterbox, during filming would i be able to see the frame im filming in for letterbox or would i be seeing a 4:3 format then after finishing the shoot it will go to letterbox? sorry if my wording seems confusing.

What's the final destination web, DVD? For SD, a used Canon GL-2 with 20x zoom, spend the extra on a WD-58 Wide Angle, a good tripod and LANC controller so you can zoom from the tripod handle.
If you go HD and deliver in SD, it's kind of cool that with such a larger frame size, you can zoom in even further in post. So a Canon HV30 or a Sony SR11 may better suit you. Just remember that with all those pans, you're going to want to get a really good tripod head. A Manfrotto 503HDV or Miller DS10 may fit the bill.

Guy asks the right question - what's the film's final destination? If you've put a lot of work into your films, having their vertical resolution compromised by 25% seems a huge hit to take simply because you wanted to use the GL2 or DVX in their 16:9 modes.

Scott - the DVX has three 16:9 modes. The best (technically) is to buy the expensive Panasonic amamorphic, but this compresses the v'finder images and composing a shot with such distortion takes a bit of getting used to.

The second mode letterboxes the 4:3 frame, so the v'finders look correct (using black bars top and bottom). The third mode is the electronic anamorphic mode - again, compressed v'finder images and the image is expanded onto a widescreen set. Both lose resolution and the differences between them are minute.

Haven't helped you with camera choice, have I? The HV30 is a deal to behold, but it's manual controls are fiddly and low light is not its crowning glory. Still, the pictures are beautiful, and with the money left over you can buy an LED light, tripod, mic and bag.

tom.

its for a class were doing so it will be converted to big screen in like 1 theater at my school. its a student film fest for summer classes. also dvd will happen. internet im not to worried about. i just know the dvx100b has a great track record, and the hv30 is possibly one of the hugest cult camera. whats the audio outputs for the hv30?? decent??

Audio outputs? It records very high quality 16 bit 48 kHz audio in the DV mode, and compressed *but still very acceptable) audio in the HDV mode. Maybe I don't understand the question.

Perhaps you are referring to the audio recording quality from the onboard mic? If so, such audio for a quality production is rarely considered decent. Decent audio is typically achieved by using appropriate external microphones designed for your specific audio recording needs and plugging them into the external microphone port of your camcorder, into an audio mixer, or into a dedicated audio recording device for syncing in post.

-Jon

price range: £2,000-£3,500

Project: Dance events, night club, car events, low light shooting
Audio: 3.5mm / XLR inputs
Video: 1080p 25p (PAL)

Hi folks,

Ive been using my trusty HV20 for the last 2 years now and I love it, but I feel Ive outgrown what it can offer. Im now doing a lot of nightclub shooting and although the 20 does work (when in HDV25p mode, 1/25 shutter) the grain and noise is a problem which I want to fix. Also the small size of the body, even with wide angle lens, brackets and such likedoesnt appear pro enough plus handling size makes shakes more noticable.

Ideally I'd have liked to see what the amazing RED Scarlet 3k for 3k would be like (the one for the soccor moms they touted but changed to something completely different further down the line) but time is marching on.

I love the lack of smear on the HV20 but am not so keen on the rolling shutter and when strobe lights are used at th events I cover.

What would you recommend for me? Ive looked at the A1 and A1S but feel they are borderline old tech and I'd like to move forward in that respect.

Many thanks,

Rik

Newer tech > HMC151

Yes, it sounds like the Panasonic 151 is right up your street Rik. I might also suggest a look at the JVC HM 100 but in your shoes I'd go for the 151. You can always think about a secondhand XH-A1 or Z1 though - solidly tried and tested technology.

I too have been put off the CMOS chipped cams purely because so much electronic flash pervades my work, so I live with my Z1 a while longer. Half frame flash exposures are a lot more common than CCD smear, which you've got to positively go after by selecting high shutter speeds.

tom.

Thanks for the replies, going to look into the 151! Does anyone have sample low light footage (direct files from the cam unprocessed) online I could take a peek at?

Thanks again,

Rik