The gigantic "which camera should I buy" thread!
 

I have an XL1 now, want to get a smaller/second camera. Have been tentatively planning on the GL1, keep it in the family, etc. but know that the Sony DV's are also highly regarded and plenty are in use by pros. Anyone have any experience with both and care to offer a comparison?

thanks

Mike, I strongly recommend sticking with Canon for your second camera. If you had a Sony as a primary camera, I would say go with a Sony again.

The reason is because there's a distinct difference between Canon and Sony in the flavor of the video. They will not intercut well with each other. On the other hand, a Canon XL1 and GL1 will cut together seamlessly. Likewise, a Sony PD150 is a good match for a DSR300.

I've seen the VX2000 and GL1 side by side, punching up video on a monitor, from one to the other. Big difference in the overall look -- not the quality -- the look. I like to describe it as flavors of ice cream. One is not "better" than the other; it's a personal subjective preference.

A GL1 will match your XL1 perfectly in all but the most extreme circumstances. Hope this helps,

Chris is right. Sony tends to shoot cooler than Canon. It would be tough to intermix video.

Nathan Gifford

VX2000
 

Well, I disagree with the other advice you've seen here. The VX2000 is just a better camera than the GL-1, unless you need the reach of the 20x lens.

Also, while the camera defaults to a cool look, you can adjust its settings. I have intercut VX2000 footage with my XL-1 with decent results. I am not a big fan of the VX2000, but it is a great second camera.

All that said...if your production budget can manage my current aim is to acquire an XL-1S and demote the XL-1 to second unit. Needless to say, it will be a "match" for my XL-1. It also meets another of my philosophies, when adding equipment buy "up."

Alexander,
Normally I like to "buy up" too if my mode was to first go entry level and see if I wind up using it enough to justify a better one, whether it be a photo enlarger, bicycle, Scuba gear, whatever. If I upgrade that's also known as "buy cheap- buy twice" :-)

However, in this case there is a different agenda. Actually I'd like to eventually replace the XL1 with a 1s, but that's not a priority, especially with some of the stories I have seen floating around about the 1s, I'd like to see Canon get their teething pains out of the way. Might even go a JVC GY-DV500 (heresy!!) or even a Panasonic AG-DVC200 (more heresy!!)

I am looking for something smaller and lighter (and less conspicuous) than the decidedly unstealthy XL1, both in terms of not getting my @ss thrown out of "no media allowed" venues or spooking the talent; and in terms of human engineering, where I may be ergonomically more inclined to bring the cam if it were smaller (easier to carry) than the XL. I have seen one rig on this community board incorporating a Sears toolbox which houses both the XL and GL, thus your instant 2-camera shoot. Plus the smaller/lighter form factor of the GL might make me bring it along when the tendency would otherwise be to leave all video equipment at home. I have not looked at the Sony next to the GL to see if it would accomplish this as successfully.

Oh yes, one other thing, a 3.5 lb. camera would enable me to "buy cheap" on a Steadicam JR and get a feel for how much I 'm likely to use that type of device before taking the plunge on the more expensive Steadicam DV. Instictively the Sony seems like a better cam than the GL, but the GL just seems so right with the XL.

Lots to think about.

Agreed
 

Given those specific goals I would say that you should look at the VX2000 or PD-150, leaning towards the VX.

Like I said I have intercut the VX2K with the XL-1 and been satisfied. I never considered it perfect, but it was impossible to tell after the VHS and SVHS dub the client wanted...you could see it on the DV tape though, just barely.

Modest color correction would have cured that.

The VX is, IMHO, a much better camera than the GL. Unless you simply can't make it match to your satisfaction with the XL I would try the VX.

Also...while it isn't buying up...it is at least buying laterally. The VX2000 is probably one of the best values in video at any price point. Right next to the Video Toaster and Lightwave IMO.

second camera
 

I own both an XL1 and GL1 ( I'm presuming its the same camera thats called XM1 in Europe). I had a VX2000 and handed it back in favour of the Canon. There were several reasons...

The Sony is such a fidgetty annoying camera to use, all the controls are in the wrong place, it takes ages to change battery (also remember that your XL1 batteries are good for the XM1 too!), to hold the Sony to your eye you pretty much have to adopt an amateur camcorder user grip which is the lousiest way to hold a camera. Its too heavy for the steadicam junior, the look of the images is flat and uninteresting, it won't hold your menu preferences on a regular basis and at least here in Ireland its way overpriced compared to the Canon!

Sorry for ranting but I was expecting so much from the VX2000 and yet its really not a lot better that the VX1000 that I can tell. As the commercial says - If you're gonna shoot it, shoot it with a Canon!

Let's not get in to a personal preferences debate. I really like the GL1 and always have this "thing" about dancing with the one that brung ya. (ie brand loyalty) The GL1 is smaller, very discreet and will match your XL1 without any worries.

I prefer the VX2000 for other reasons over the GL1 but given the opportunity (and cash on hand) I would have bought the XL1 to begin with. I bought the best available camera for my budget.

That being said, go with the GL1. It's a great little camera and a bargin for camera #2.

(BTW... I've gotten away from 2-pop primarily because it seemed like the Canon vs Sony debate never ended and often got rather nasty)

Howdy from Texas,

<< BTW... I've gotten away from 2-pop primarily because it seemed like the Canon vs Sony debate never ended and often got rather nasty >>

I know exactly what you mean, and that problem will *not* happen here, as I intend to actively moderate the posts. There's nothing wrong with debating the merits of Canon vs. Sony; however on this board such discussion *will* remain polite and civil, because nastiness will be deleted post haste and without apology or exception.

Hope this helps,

Thanks, Chris.

dvinfo.net is a great site...

I still get some valuable info and stay in touch w/ friends at 2-pop but got tired of the know it alls who forgot that they wern't born with their video knowledge and neither are the folks simply looking for some help. San Marcos isn't that far away and I'd love to get a first hand look at your set up.

Although my degree was in TV production, that was 20 years and 3 sales jobs ago. I'm having to relearn most of this stuff. My only saving grace (I think) is that I spent most of those years working in the graphics industry and regulary played with the best systems and software the Mac had to offer.

(oh no! Did I just start the Mac vs. PC debate? Ahhhh! I'm outta here!)

<< BTW... I've gotten away from 2-pop primarily because it seemed like the Canon vs Sony debate never ended and often got rather nasty >>

Actually, i kind of got away from 2-pop 'cuz it's heavily Final Cut Pro oriented, and I am surrounded by Adobe Premiere users and looking to migrate toward that from FCP.

I like the idea of keeping Canon with Canon and knew that the batteries are the same which is nice, although that might be out the window if I switch my XL into a JVC GYDV500 which uses the NP sticks. Life is never simple! :-)

Canon v. Sony
 

Hello to the group...nice to find this area of discussion.

My question: do you have any thoughts about the benefits of a Canon XL1S vs. a Sony DSR 250?

I'm launching a corporate video production company and I want to make sure I'm using the best tools.

The price is about $1200 higher for the Sony, equipped with battery, charger and tripod plate.
Other than that, any strengths/weaknesses I should consider?

I've heard the Canon has a "beautiful, film-like picture," while the Sony offers "razor-like sharpness."

Does that mean the Sony will be sharp, but harsh...while the Canon is beautiful but soft?

I already have a Sony VX-2000. Should I stay with Sony?

I know these are basic, new-to-the-biz questions, but if you can help, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks in advance.

Last edited by LiveShot on November 14th, 2001 at 03:26 PM

sony canon
 

i was under the impression that the sony 250 uses same chip and most of the electronics of a vx 2000/pd150 ? with a bit more electronic conrol ... so HOW do you like the vx 2000 image ?

i use the canons BUT i have to admit that the sony 2000/pd150 holds contrast much better - can see more into shadow areas ... IMO the sony is sharper BUT sharper doesn't mean better ... i prefer the softer canon look !

i wouldn't say the canon have a "film look " but the frame mode does give you a more " film shutter look" ....

for a CORPORATE Video production company ...i would suggest you take a look at the JVC 500 or panasonic 200 ??

IMO you already have a vx 2000 so you basically have the sony 250 ... take the next step UP to a 1/2 ccd !!! the Xl's does have a very good image and for the basic setup is a good deal BUT if you are going to add in the hi res view finder and other accessories you are now in the price range of the JVC/panasonic 1/2 ccd's camera's and IMO the 1/2 ccd's out perform the 1/3 ccds in ALL shooting situations ...

I'd stay with the Sony as you already have the VX2k and cross cutting from the Canon to the Sony in a multi camera shoot would be obvious in regards to picture consistancy.

My humble .02

WG

BTW... I preferred the sharper image on the Sony and liked the feel in my hands vs. the GL1. That was my buying motivation... personal taste. I probably would have gone with the XL1 had budget not been a concern.

Thanks
 

Thanks for your replies....I think I'll stay on the Sony wagon....I really appreciate this group. Be back later.

Steve

Looking For New Dv Camera
 

I currently use a Canon XL-1. My main problem with the camera is that occasionaly it losses focus as the light changes. Pans, tracking can be difficult and usually result in me reshooting shots over and over.

I'm trying to find a new camera in the same general price range that has greater depth of field (interchangeable lenses) and does not take it upon itself to tell me how to focus.

Any suggestions?

The JVC GY-DV500 is a full-size shoulder-mount DV camera which takes professional Canon or Fujinon broadcast video lenses, and is only slightly more expensive than the XL1. Be prepared to ernter a new, higher level of accessory pricing as batteries, power supplies and zoom/focus controls are much more expensive for professional gear.

If you go for a camera in a bracket above the XL1/s you will lose auto focus as the lenses these cameras use are as Chris said the Canon/Fujinon Pro lenses that are manual focus lenses.

Save you money and just shoot in manual focus mode if you are having problems with the XL1 focus. I have been shooting snowboarding for a few years with the XL1 and it is totally up to the task. Just take a bit of time to plan your shots. Work with your skiers/riders so you know where they are going so you can set your shots up.

If you just want point and shoot, buy a GL1/XM1 or a VX2000

It May Be Depth of Field
 

You may be having a problem with the depth of field changing with the light.

Nathan Gifford

vx2000 or XL1s?
 

Sorry for asking this question, you've probably had it many times before, but I am currently looking at purchasing either a Sony vx2000 or Canon XL1s camcorder (well, not right now but in 10-12 months).

Could you please advise me which would be best considering the following:

1. I live in the UK (not sure whether that makes any difference)

2. Most of the shooting that I will be doing will be indoors; in a kitchen (quite brightly lit). However, I will also be doing shooting outdoors.

3. I would like to have broadcast quality (or near) image quality & sound, or atleast the ability to capture professional-quality sound from external microphone

4. I dont have a very big budget, so i would obviously like to have to purchase minimal accessories to achieve professional quality video and sound

5. I would like to be able to transfer the video to computer, and I will be using a cheap 8mm Sony camcorder to provide another angle.


I am slightly confused about which camcorder to buy because each review/comparison I read says something different!
I am leaning towards the VX2000 because I like Sony, but I am put off by the "hiss" problem which I think may hinder the ability for me to capture the best quality sound. Also, the XL1s seems to be classified as "professional" whereas the vx2000 doesnt seem to be so "professional".

Your views and comments are greatly appreciated

From every thing I've read you might as well get the SonyPD-150. It's not that much more. the 2000 is good but just more on the 150. Or ir you have the extra cash just get the XL1s,,,I'm pretty sure that's what I'll do.

The reason why Im not looking at the PD150 is because I can't find anyone here in the UK that stocks it.
The shop that Im looking at sells the XL1s for £200 more than the vx2000.

If anyone owns the vx2000/XL1s (or PD150) or preferably more than one of these and would like to comment it would be greatly appreciated.

Taste Great - Less Filling
 

First and foremost - you won't regret purchasing either unit. They're both capable of "broadcast quality" but that depends more on you than the camera.

If your talking about the XL1s for £200 more than the vx2000 (290.00 in US bucks?) then you're decision is easy - the XL1s is considerably more camera for the dollar/pound. The difference was about 1300.00 when I did my comparison. That extra money went toward extra batteries, wide angle lens, a quality tripod and head, etc. I was on a budget too.

You may want to keep looking for a better price on the VX2000 - I've found some reputable dealers who offer the unit for around 2200.00.
(BTW - I bought the Sony and love it)

Regarding the legendary Sony hiss - I've never experienced the problem

Thanks to all who replied.

You say I should look for a better price on the Sony, although the price that this place has it for seems to be one of the lowest from any online UK store (£2199.99 from www.askdirect.co.uk). The XL1s also seems relatively cheap at £2399.99.

Anyway, I still have a few months to decide and if I run into any more brick walls I will come back here for help :)

And one more thing, can anyone tell me if the XL1s image quality is any inferior to the vx2000 image quality (Ive heard that the XL1s has less pixels or something of the sort)?

Does anyone know which camera would be best for recording in a room where there is bright light entering from a window which will be behind the subject?

Thanks again.

I found this site. They use PAL, whereas on this side of the lake we use NTSC. Should be good for a lot of you.

http://www.videocamera.com.au/

They like them both, but I'm pretty sure the XL1S is favored, slightly. I think the xl1s was reviewed last between them.

I know that I do like some features on the Canon and some I don't. But I need multiple white balance settings in memory (wish I could have even more than the three sometimes). I'm not sure if the Sony has it.

I also like having the stereo mic and the additional xlr inputs running simultaniously.

Oh yeah, I have very little Hi8 stuff left, but what I could see from it was quite cool!!!!

I use D8 to record and edit with and love it and it's cheap cost. Tape speed and pitch rival DVCPRO and dvCam to boot!!!!!

I've seen some old Hi8 footage through my D8 vtr watchman and it looked better than I thought it would.

I shoot D8 footage along with an xl1s (recording to my D8 watchman) and do mix them in post. No they aren't really perfect, but for most viewers they NEVER know unless it's an a/b comparison.

Video makers look for the little details, viewers are interested in the story being told. It takes two to tango.

When I first wrote this review I was leaning more towards the vx2000, but I have to say that I've changed to liking the xl1s now; mainly due to the apparently superior audio with no real sacrifice to video quality.
The review at videocamera.com.au seems to rate this camera extremely highly; with audio quality "head and shoulders" above the competition (supposedly VX2000?)
It also seems to have a lot of fans on this board.

However, their review of the VX2000 is also good and I am still considering it, as I don't doubt that it is an excellent camcorder

Dan,
As wgardner wrote, you won't regret either purchase. I'm partial to Canon equipment (having an XL1, an XL1s, a GL1 and a ZR30) but Sony makes a very fine line of gear with a very loyal following. If there seems to be a potential lean towards the XL1s here it may be because this forum has a dedicated XL1/XL1s discussion area.

I have only 2 items to add that have not yet been noted. First, most people (myself included) say that Canon cams have a slightly softer and warmer image than comparable Sonys. With some of the new adjustments on the XL1s you can sharpen its image to taste but most Canon shooters tend to like the softer edges for many situations.

Second, and perhaps more significantly for your initial purpose, the VX2000 is a physically smaller camera. In form, it's more comparable to the Canon GL1. If you're shooting in a tight space a smaller camera might be an advantage. Along the same line of thought you might be able to take any savings you realize from getting the VX2000 and use it to get a wide-angle adapter for it. This is an accessory that can be very handy in tight spaces. A 3x wide angle len for the XL1s is an excellent lens but it costs over $1000.

Have a ball with your shopping and your project Dan!

Thanks for your post Ken.

I have read about the softer and warmer picture on the Canon elsewhere; nobody seems to complain about it so it can't be (much of) a disadvantage, and most seem to class it as an advantage.

As for making a saving with the VX2000, here in the UK the price difference is very little - £2200 for VX and £2400 for XL.

I also favour the XL1s because of its smaller sibling, the XM(GL)-1, which I may wish to purchase in the future as an addition angle camera and I have heard that it would be much easier for me to colour match the XL1s and XM-1 than the VX2000 and XM-1.

Anyway, thanks again to everyone and no doubt I will be back shortly with another round of questions ;).

I like the XL1 because of the "frame mode". It just gives the motion in the picture more of a "film" look and less of a "daddy's videocamera" look. I'm not a big fan of 60 (or 50 in the UK) independent interlaced images since it looks so, well, like a camcorder. The Frame mode just looks more like film. My friend has the Sony camera and it is pretty nice. But the best it can do is either 60 fields per second (for the NTSC version) or 15 frames per second (labeled progressive scan). No 30 frame option.

You can review:
http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/film_look.html
on how to get a film look from video.

I'd also suggest :
www.kenstone.net
for some highly informative info on video set up and manipulation.

Really Dan, go to a store and hold 'em. touch 'em and use 'em. I mean, you wouldn't buy a new car without test driving it would you?

As for a second camera, stick with one line. You may even want to go with the GL1 (XM1 to you) and then step into a XL1s at a later date.

DV camera choice
 

Gday from Australia,

I received this request from a work collegue & thought I would post it here. Any advice would be greatly appreciated...

"I would like to get my daughter for her birthday a digital video recorder and would be greatful for any advice..
She is intending to make a video of her year 12 school, a year book on video.

It should be able to take still shots,
it should have a flash light built in,
out put for remote mic,
easily transfered to computer for editing,
low light capability,

we looked at Sony DCRTRV17 first then the TRV30e then the JVC GRDVX78 and now i am confused.
one other question is it better/cheaper to purchase it overseas, via one of my long haul friends?"....

Thanks,

Andrew.

Howdy from Texas,

Personally I'd take a Sony over a JVC. Just about any DV camcorder will provide just about everything you list for requirements... still shots, input for remote mic, easily transfered to computer for editing, and low light capability. Some Sony camcorders and the Canon Optura Pi, Optura 100MC, ZR30MC and ZR50MC can accept $50 on-camera lights which run off the camera battery.

You're really better off buying locally as shipping a PAL-system camcorder from Europa to Oz will cost you much more than whatever small amount you would have saved on the price.

The right camera is the one which feels best in your hands... so tell your buddy and his daughter to try before they buy.

Sydney is currently void of Oils, as they are now on tour here in the States... just wishing for some Texas dates,

I've not done side by side testing of Sony VS. JVC, but so far, the Sony stuff has been great. I've done a lot of work with a digital 8 unit over the last 3 years and it's worked wonders and without any trouble. I know the miniDV stuff has been even better (better CCD's in the Camera Section).

The TRV 30 seems to be very highly recommended as far as single chip cams. Pana mx 300 (lucky PALguys) sounds very good for a three-chipper as well as the sony trv 900 and Canon GL1.

I'd also look into the little PC series cams by Sony. There is some truth about getting good footage because you actually had a (small) camera along with you instead of it sitting at home because it's too big to take along. The flipside is that it can be easily pocketed by the wrong person!

wow i can help!
 

I personally use a Sony DCR-tvr330. It has all of your options witht he exceptions of the flashlight. It has an excellent night shot capability. It is also great on the editing side as well. It saves all images to a sony SMARTSTICK.

All in all an excellent camera.

However, I would agree that the camera thats right is the one that feels right. Try it out. Read the manuel for other tricks and features.

Dennis

What DV camera to buy?
 

Hi all, I'm new to the world of film making having done nothing more than shoot 2 minutes of 16mm film and some home video footage. I'm wanting to move more seriously into filming and because of the prohibitive cost of film I want to get into DV.

I have several ideas (And partial scripts) for short movies and a full length that I want to do and am now looking for a good camera that will help me do that. I hope, eventually to get into shooting functions and the like to make a little money (Even just to pay back the cost of the camera). I also have ideas for a couple of small documentaries that could be made into videos for Special Interest Groups I am involved in.

My budget is about $NZ9-10000 (About $US4-5000) and looking around I've come down to a choice between 2 cameras

Canon XL1s and the Sony PD150.

I had a play with a PD150 today and was quite happy with it, but haven't had the chance to play with an XL1s to compare them (And it might be very hard as stores in Auckland, New Zealand tend not to stock them cause they are expensive and they don't sell them often)

The things I would like clarification/advice on are the following

Which image looks more "full", and less like video? I've heard that Canon's 25fps (PAL) progressive scan mode will help this a little, is this true? The PD 150 output definately looked better (less video like) than my home handycam but is the Canon even better?
Is lighting more of an issue here than the camera?

Can you get cheap XLR addons for the Canon? And what are they? When I finally get to shooting my mini-movie I will probably get a mic and boom and will want XLR input from what I've heard.

Is the interchangable lens system of the Canon a real plus or are the lens adapters for the PD150 perfectly fine? If I went Canon I would go with the 16x full manual, and don't see getting into things like Wideangle until I have some more stuff to shoot and can justify the cost.

What is the usability like for them both. Is it easy to change the exposure, gains and all that stuff that I don't fully understand yet?

So I guess I'm asking is there is anything blaringly stupid about any of these cameras that I should avoid, or would any of them suit me for the required sort of work I have mentioned I want to do?

And finally, I had a thought that I might be aiming too high when I'm just starting out so would it be more sensible for someone like me (Who won't make money from his work for a while) to get a less expensive camera (VX2000, XL1, or GL1 ) and use the extra money for mics/booms, recording deck , or few basic lights etc?


Thanks

The PD 150 output definately looked better (less video like) than my home handycam but is the Canon even better?
Is lighting more of an issue here than the camera?
=============================================
Yes, the Canon will have more of a film look than the PD-150 in progressive scan mode. Some also say that the softness and warmer picture of the Canon adds to this film look (the Sony has a cooler, sharper picture)

Can you get cheap XLR addons for the Canon? And what are they? When I finally get to shooting my mini-movie I will probably get a mic and boom and will want XLR input from what I've heard.
=============================================
You can buy the MA-100 (cheaper) or MA-200 for the XL1s which not only has XLR inputs but doubles as a better shoulder rest for the camera. The MA-200 also has space for you to attach a double-battery adapter so you can use/charge two batteries (not sure if the MA-100 has this)
The MA-200 sells for £300 in the UK, there may be a cheaper option but most people just buy MA-200/MA-100

Is the interchangable lens system of the Canon a real plus or are the lens adapters for the PD150 perfectly fine?
=============================================
Pros consider the interchangeable lens system to be a "real plus" because it allows the camera to grow with your experience and shooting requirements.
The manual lens of the XL1s is better than the lens of the PD-150 for a pro.
You might like to note that an anamorphic adapter is not yet available for the XL1s (used to make the picture widescreen), however I think one is being released in the near future.

What is the usability like for them both. Is it easy to change the exposure, gains and all that stuff that I don't fully understand yet?
=============================================
I dont actually own any of them so I cant say for sure, but I think in general the XL1s has more controls for you to change. The PD-150 has less controls and I think it is easier to change them.
The PD-150 is therefore better for point-and-shoot recording, whereas to get a good quality picture of the XL1s you need to do some fiddling first.

So I guess I'm asking is there is anything blaringly stupid about any of these cameras that I should avoid, or would any of them suit me for the required sort of work I have mentioned I want to do?
==============================================
Both of the cameras have reported problems, so the best idea would be to try-before-you-buy.
The XL1s apparently has a noisy zoom that can be heard from the stock-mic but you mention you will be getting the manual lens which does not have this problem.
The PD-150 has reported sound hiss (I think its fixed now).


Hope this helped somewhat, I haven't got any of these cameras so my knowledge is a bit limited.
For more information, you might want to use the search function at the top of the page.
You might also want to look at comparisons of the VX2000 and XL1s considering the only difference between the PD150 and VX2000 is the XLR inputs, microphone and recording format.
In terms of video quality, the VX2000 and PD150 and identical.

Howdy from Texas,

Dan has offered some excellent and accurate advice, to which I will only add one thing. You have done well to narrow down your choice to the PD150 and XL1S. Both truly are superb camcorders each in their own right. I firmly believe that you should touch 'n' try each, and view the video output on a professional broadcast monitor, before you buy. The right camcorder for you is the one which a.) feels best in your hands, and b.) looks most appealing on a monitor. Sony and Canon produce different flavors of video. It's a preference, kind of like what's your favorite ice cream. Hope this helps,

Thanks for the info guys. I will contact Canon New Zealand and see if they can put me in touch with one of their distributors who might let me demo the camera. I didn't view the output from the PD150 on a broadcast monitor unfortunately, so I might have to find another shop and try again. I doubt if the Sony store I went to actually had a proper broadcast monitor, just TV's.

One more thing regarding the zoom noise. I will get the manual lens but this is also connected up to the servo system of the camera so it can be controlled from the camera if you want. Does this mean that I will hear the sound of the zoom if I use this feature with the manual lens, or did the sound come from the lens itself, and not the servo?

Cheers.
Aaron

Aaron,

If you're planning on using external mics then the "Zoom Noise" won't be a problem.

If you use the onboard mic is it only noticeable when there is no other noise, like in a quiet room. If you are shooting in such a situation and don't need the audio, disconnect the mic.