Kermie
I think he could buy a Beach Tec XLR adapter, a Sennheiser K6/ME66 and a decent manfrotto tripod for under $800. Using an unbalanced adapter with the ME66 would cut $150 off the figure. So far as a cheaper mic I don't know how well the unbalanced shotgun mics work. (Like the MKE300) Going to an unbalanced MKE300D he could buy the mic and pod for under $400.

We are talking no budget here.

Bryan,

yeah i was being generous because things always end up costing more than you think heh heh.

kermie

I'd put in some overtime wherever you work and save up the money to buy a used GL1. If $1000 is your max, an extra $300 saved up will make a big difference on a GL1 instead of buying a single chip cam.
Otherwise, if it's a definite "no", then I'd look for a used Optura Pi. From what Chris Hurd says, it's the best single chip miniDV camera ever (more or less). Price in the $500-$900 range.

Re: "then I'd look for a used Optura Pi. From what Chris Hurd says, it's the best single chip miniDV camera ever (more or less)."

I 2nd that. Here are some other good ones:

1) Canon Elura (original)
2) Sony TRV20
3) Sony TRV30
4) JVC DVL9500U
5) JVC DVL9800U
6) Panasonic PV-DV601
7) Sony TRV17
8) Sony PC9
9) Canon Optura 100MC
10) Canon Optura (original)

If the quality is substantially better, I may just work a bit harder and try to scrounge up the cash for a GL1. I've seen them going for around 1100 on ebay. I'm sure there is plenty of stuff lying around my room that I can just sell for the extra money. Thanks for all of your advice.

I like Frank's list, but I prefer new cams so I would lean toward the Sony line for that range, TRV30, 50 etc. Although the TRV50 is probably around $1200.

Any 3-chipper will do well. Most 3-chippers also have a decent set of optics ahead of the CCDs, and it takes glass to make a really good image.

On single chippers you want to make sure that you have decent access to the manual controls. Most auto settings are worth a hill of beans even on a 3-chipper!

I agree a used TRV900 would be an excellent choice (make sure its OK before you buy). Later you will need to get accessories like tripod and stuff.

which miniDV cam
 

OK, I'm going to buy a miniDV cam to use as a deck, since it looks like my XL1's DV ports are toast. :P

Requirements:
Cheap (under $1000cdn)
Small-ish, doesn't have to be tiny.
Analogue in/out (and of course DV in/out)
Some sort of night mode would be nice.

Suggestions?

Sony TRV18? TRV25? Canon ZR40?

Hmmm,
Depending on where you are... at my local Fry's here in Houston - They are selling a Sharp MinidDV cam for 299. You know, the one that has the big screen on the back, and no viewfinder. Perfect for an extra deck. Not an especially fancy cam though.

I just did a comparison shop for a friend, needed to buy a small cam like the one you describe. Under 800 dollars. I narrowed it down to the Canon z50 and the Sony tr27. Both had "pass through" capabilities. The Canon had a stronger optical Zoom, the Sony a larger lcd... a few other differences but those were pretty good cams for the price.

I've used many of the small Canon's going back to the original Optura and ZR. They have always performed reliably under a variety of conditions. Canon also has a better new camera warranty than Sony.

Jeff

I'd probably prefer to stick with Canon, if prices are all similar. The cheapest miniDV cam I've seen here is a Samsung, which is only about $120 less than the cheapest Canon.
Do all of the Canon's have analogue in? I want to transfer old 8mm tapes from my old cam to miniDV so I can get them on my computer.

I believe all the new models do. I know the ZR , ZR 10 didn't. The ZR 20, 30 series I don't remember. The 40's and 50's do have analog in.

Jeff

DV camcorder recommendation
 

Ok, so I thought I had it all planned out. I've managed to get a new computer (dell 2.4 gigahertz, 1 gig rdram, 150 gig hd, great video card, great sound card) and feel pretty comfortable with premiere 6.5 and the next step was buying a mid-grade camcorder. So I was set on the Sony TRV-27 which is a 1 megapixel deal with 3.5 inch screen ($799) and wanted to get the four year warranty (because I'm big on not having to worry if something is going to go bad and cost me big bucks). But now, the new model is coming out in February, the TRV-33 that list price is $800, the camcorder is smaller, has a few more pixels, everything is touch panel LCD (2.5 inch) and also has 16:9 mode that isnt just bars, but it's still not the real deal obviously. So this just leads me to rethink the whole selection process. I am in the 800 dollar range, and need a good camcorder to shoot shorts and hopefully build a reel to get into a respectable film school after I graduate and get things together(around 1.5 yrs from now). I really don't care about how small the camcorder is but want the quality of DV. Should I stick with Sony? Should I wait for the new models to come out? Any feedback is welcome! Thanks guys!

(flame suit ON)
I hate Sony consumer products. With the exception of my miniDisc player, neither I, nor my immediate family have ever owned a Sony product that has not given us trouble. I will never buy another Sony consumer level product again.
(flame suit OFF)
Having said that, I have to point out that it doesn't matter which camcorder you buy. Comperable models all put out a similar picture, the real consideration is ergonomics. Buy whichever feels best in your hands. I recently hand tested all the current batch of single CCD cameras to use as a "fun" camera and DV deck, and ended up with a Canon ZR40. It's very small, but not tiny. Fits in my palm nicely, is well featured, and cost in the $500us range.

Dylan - most of the Canons are only 680k pixels, and I really wanted to have a 1 megapixel. How is the picture quality with your zr40? Is it good enough to shoot shorts with and just as a novice camcorder for an aspiring film student?

My vote if for the panasonic DV852. I just got it and the quality is fantastic. I just shot some video using it and a canon GL2 and when I brought the two together in vegas I could not tell the difference in the two (after some minor editing)...

I heard good things about the DV852 for such a long time, and I am really glad I got one before it was discontinued forever.

You can grab it for $900-1000... worth every penny.

I also strongly suggest going with a Panasonic PV-DV852. It is the best 1 CCD camcorder on the market!

So, is it worth paying the extra couple hundred bucks for this camera over a 1 megapixel sony? Will there be that big of a noticeable difference? A problem with the panasonic is the fact that it is discontinued, and the only vendors I can find it at are shady no name internet sites! Thanks for your input so far!

I would say that it is better, yes. And worth the extra money.
As for a place to buy, go to www.bhphoto.com, they are a big name, honest dealer. I got mine last week.

Even though it is being discontinued the warranty is still good.

I think the Canon Optura 200mc ( 1.33 million pixels ) has more pixels than the Panasonic CV852 ( 1/3.8", 1.02 Mega ), but when you compare the CCD size, I would believe the CV852 has the most.

Never the less it also comes down to which brand you feel more comfortable with, like Dylan.

I would also have to second Dylan's opinion of Sony. The laptop which I'm on right now is a sony and is being held together with electrial tape, because of huge cracks. Sony will not admit there is something wrong with a laptop the cracks when it gets to hot.

Even more against sony, a friend of mine had a VX1000 that you had to use an external mice because the onboard one was broken. After having it sent away three times the problem was never fixed. Now after a year of complaining to them, sony has agreed to relace the VX1000 with a PD150 and an extra $1000 CND for the trouble. So I guess it's a mixed blessing.




http://www.prodcat.panasonic.com/sho...52&CategoryId=

http://www.canondv.com/optura200mc/s.html

(flame suit ON... again)

OK, don't cane me with bamboo poles but...
If you are serious about picture quality, why waste your money on a $1000 single chip camera, when for $200 more you can buy a used Canon GL1. 3-CCD, frame movie mode, and a host of manual control options!
If you are spending that much money, it's time to step up to the big leagues. You will be very, very happy.


Let me make another point, the people at whichever film school you choose will NOT judge your demo reel on the picture quality itself. They'll be looking at lighting, composition, editing, etc... They understand that students can't shoot everything on digiBeta.

SO my final advice... Buy whichever feels best in your hands. But if you plan on spending $1000, it shouldn't be hard to save an extra $200 to get a GL1. Plus you'll impress girls with it.

Also consider a used Optura Pi, which is supposed to be excellent, and you can find them used in the $500 range.

Oh yeah, and you if don't buy a Sony, you won't need to waste money on an extended warantee! Seriously.
Most of those aftermarket warrantees are rip-offs.

I'll second both Dylan's suggestion. The Optura Pi is the best 1 chip camcorder ever made in my opinion (now discontinued). GL1's are getting cheaper and would be a big improvement over most single chip cameras.

Jeff

The more I think about it, the more I would save for a GL1. As Jeff says, prices are dropping every day as people snap up GL2's. I'd expect to pay $1100-1300 for one.
If the money is just not going to happen, Optura Pi's are worth around $550 used. Apparently their price is staying high since they are still fairly in demand. The sign of an excellent piece of technology.

Panasonic PV-DV852's are in the $1300 range, right? Nice camera though, but again you can get a GL1 for that. Same with an Optura 200mc. They are in the $1200 range I think.

Where to buy? If you go with a new camera, the sponsors of this forum have excellent reputations, plus you will be supporting the people that support us.
If you go with a used camera, I'd look through local Buy/Sell type classified papers. If you consider buying off Ebay, make sure you read this http://www.dvinfo.net/articles/buyersguide/ebay.php

The PV-DV852 is around $1000 US at http://www.bhphotovideo.com

It also blows the doors off of the GL1, with video quality and built in sound. Sorry.

Sorry, but I agree with frank on that. Seriously.

I dont know how possible it is for you, but a simple comparison of the GL1 and the DV852 will prove the DV852 to be better quality... even with its one chip.

yea but.....
 

Like Dylan said......

Chicks dig Canon GL or XL series cameras <;~)

The DV852 can look pretty damn cool itself with a few extras... ;)

<<<-- Originally posted by Frank Granovski : The PV-DV852 is around $1000 US at http://www.bhphotovideo.com

It also blows the doors off of the GL1, with video quality and built in sound. Sorry. -->>>

Frank
I must have got an unreasonably high price when I did a search earlier.
Do you have a link to a comparision site which shows it's features and picture quality head to head with a GL1? I've got nothing against Panny's, so if it is indeed a better camera, rock 'n roll!

Mind you, I like the ergonomics of the GL1 too. (These 2 cams are both lean and long...you know what I mean? Both are cheek magnets!)

Tests show that the GL1 plays back 460 lines tops, with its 250K X 3 video effective CCD pixels. On a wave form monitor with the PV-DV852, 530 horizontal lines. Both cams have good color saturation, but the GL1 has a lot more noise. Concerning audio, you've got a great mic on the PV with great controls---for a consumer cam. GL1 audio? It's okay I guess. +_+

http://www.dvfreak.com/dah.gif

How about control accessibility and extra features?
Does it have something comparable to Frame Movie Mode?

What about manual settings? Does it have any? That has been my major problem/concern with 1 chip cameras.

Shop around and see what you can get. Besides my XL1s I have a Sony TRV340 digital camera. I think it's a good camera for the price. It's good for vacation, family stuff. It would probably be good for school too. Just look around, check them on line, compare prices and options. There are are plenty of websites that rates products.

So what I can gather is that this panasonic DV852 is my best bet for around the 1k range? The GL1 looks cooler but costs 3 hundred bucks more but is outperformed by the panasonic in every catagory? Both of these cameras have changeable lenses or lense converters for wide angle lense or telephoto right?

-ZimVG304 - I've been checking out a ton of sites with reviews and even picked up a copy of some mags with reviews of the camcorders and they all pointed to the Sony TRV27 to have the best picture quality etc. That's why I was kinda set on that cam, this is also why I was shocked to hear about this Panasonic model because I hadn't heard it mentioned in any of the reviews that I read which makes me weary. I would guess because it's list price of 1,500 k wouldn't place it in the same price bracket as the TRV27 for comparison in magazine tests. So does Panasonic make a pretty quality camera? I never connected their brand name with quality.

You guys almost have me sold on this panasonic camera as it seems a general consensus that it has great quality picture and onboard sound and will beat the hell out of the sony? Is there anyone who strongly disagrees with what has been said so far?

Numbers, numbers, numbers, which ones do we choose to pick our cameras by. Lines of resolution are only one factor out of many. Almost universally 3 chip cameras will out perform a 1 chip camera. An easy test of the superiority of a 3 chip camera is contrast. If you shoot a very high contrast scene (dark bird on a wire against a light sky) and the 3 chip image is clearly superior. It will maintain more detail in the highlights and shadows.

The 3 chip GL1 is perhaps a better investment. It is near the price of the Panasonic and over time will hold it's value better. If the $1200 investment just isn't doable the Panasonic is a good second choice. However, a camera like the Canon Optura Pi ($500) may be a better investment also. The savings in cost will allow you to purchase the needed accessories, batteries, tripod, microphones, filters, lens adapters etc. Search Optura Pi here and you'll see it is thought by many to be the best single chip camera ever made (because of the use of a true progressive scan CCD). I used one for several years and the image quality rivaled the XL1 under certain, ideal lighting conditions.

Jeff

<<<-- Originally posted by Bryan Roberts : The GL1 looks cooler but costs 3 hundred bucks more but is outperformed by the panasonic in every catagory? Both of these cameras have changeable lenses or lense converters for wide angle lense or telephoto right?
-->>>

Only the XL1 has changable lenses. The other miniDV cameras mentionned will have to use screw on converters.

I don't know if the Panasonic does indeed outperform the GL1. It surprises me, but is possible. I'm still waiting for someone to post a link with a head to head review.

Here are a few things to consider as a film maker:
First, the onboard mic will rarely be used. You will usualy (if you are smart) mount an external mic on a boom to get better sound.
Ease of use of your sound controls is nice too, especially if you have built in VU meters.

Second, manual controls and other features which allow you to get a more "hands on" approach to your shots, quickly and efficiently, are very valuable. Most important is a good manual focus system as well as easy access to white balance, shutter and iris controls.

These are things I would definitlly place in importance over a slight increase in picture quality. I've never handled the Panasonic in question, so I can't compare them to the GL1 for you. Make sure you do this before you make your final choice.

Don't forget to add accessories to your budget. A reasonably good tripod, extra batteries, bag, basic filters, and hopefully an external mic can easily add $300-$500 to your spending spree.

Dylan - what do you mean by basic filters? What are some that I simply must have as a basic set?

Thanks all, these all are tough things to consider. I think I might go with the GL1 if I could find it for sale new somewhere, but everywhere I check only offers the GL2 and I could never trust the EBAY way or even used in general. I guess I'll go with panasonic.......... any more feedback is appreciated, thanks all!

Bryan,
You'll be very hard-pressed to find a new GL1. Canon efficiently cleared their inventory pipes just before launching the GL2 by offering substantial incentives for GL1 buyers. Not saying you can't find one, but it may really not be worth the effort considering the marked enhancements offered by the GL2 at basically the same price point.

The two basic filters you should consider as starters are a high-quality UV filter and a good circular polarizing filter. Once you recover from the initial outlay you can begin exploring others, such as some of the soft-effect filters.

Here is a basic list of what I got for under $1350 at bhphoto.com

Panasonic DV852
5 hour battery
Tiffen Wide Angle Lens (43mm)
Tiffen set of 4 filters (43mm)
Shotgun Mic
Tapes

And then I bought an aluminum case with foam inside for $20 at lowes, here is my review of it:

"I just thought I would report on the case from lowes. It is fantastic! I am using it for my DV852 and there is more than enough room. The quality of this thing is MUCH better than expected. The foam inside is high quality and you can adjust it to fit your needs. I feel my camera is much better protected in this $20 case than it was in my $60 soft case.

This thing gets a 10 out of 10... I would have paid double after seeing it.

(it's not a $200 hard case... but for $20, hell, $50, you cant get any better!) "


Like I said before, I used a GL2 and my DV852 last week to shoot video and I honestly cannot tell much of a difference in the two once I am editing in Vegas...

You had the right idea when you started with the thought of getting the TRV-27. Everyone will give you a different oppinion so you best check out a few you are interested in and decide on you own likes and dislikes .Take a tape with you a shoot a bit of footage with each and compair them in your editor.
KennJ