I haven't shot with the specific models you are mentioning, nor am I acquainted with their respective feature sets. The best advice I can give is to check out a website like www.camcorderinfo.com . They have reviews of almost every single make and model of camcorder over the last few years. The reviews have gotten much more accurate and lengthy over the last year.

A site like this is dvinfo.net is good for, well, DV info, but is limited by the knowledge of the users and what equipment they have used or have extensively researched. While camcorderinfo's user base is not as advanced, their staff tries to get out info on all the models.

Check that site for a plethora of reviews.

The cameras we have mentioned are 3CCD cameras and therefore will have better color repoduction than the models you have listed. The ones we mentioned also have some room to grow into for a videographer (options and features you'll be glad you have later). Check the review for the PV-GS400 on camcorderinfo. It would really suit the needs of anyone that wants to do some lower end professional/extreme hobbyist work.

John.
Our first camera was an XL1 which we are still using regularly.
We use this and an XL1s for numerous projects including wildlife.
Some of our locations are during the winter months in very adverse weather conditions, rain, hail and snow etc.
I know it's not quite the same as being at sea, but we've never had a problem keeping our kit dry. We use Kater Rainguards.

During the summer months we still find the need to cover-up the cams in certain conditions and this can cause a greenhouse effect in sunshine judging by the condensation apparent on the inside of the Rainguard. We always make sure there is good air circulation obtained by leaving the bottom of the Rainguard open and have never experienced any problems. I think the secret is to make sure the air is able to circulate so condensation doesn't build up too much.

You might consider also a PD170 which is proving to be a fabulous piece of gear and evenly matched to the Canon's.
Regards

$4000 - which camera????
 

ok team
this is how it breaks down. Myself and a chum are putting together a small production studio and we need to get all the equipment.
Top of the list is the camera. Just as everyone else is, i am after the 'film look.' We've put aside approx. $4000 and the panasonic HD range is looking attractive, but i'm open to suggestion and to stretch the budget by several grand. Most important things are 16:9 and progressive capabilities.
Any advice would really be appreciated, even if its to hold off for 6 months because somethings going to happen in the hd world. Either way thanks
henry

You're about 5 years too early for a 4k panasonic HD camera lol. 16:9 progressive would be either the XL2 or the DVX100A.

Re: $4000 - which camera????
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Henry Jefferson : the panasonic HD range is looking attractive -->>>

Like Glenn said.... what Panasonic HD??? The only high def camera anywhere remotely close to your price is the JVC single chipper as discussed in this forum. Many people assume that the next company to roll out a low priced HDV camcorder will be Sony since they showed a non-working prototype 3-chip camera at NAB. But that's probably a year or more away, and they were talking about a $5,000 price tag.

You asked for a 16:9 and progressive capabilities for 4 grand? Well, the JVC HD10u is your camera to buy right now.

You'll get people throwing eggs at you if you buy it, but if you email me I'll point you to some footage online that will BLOW YOU AWAY that was shot with the HD10u.

Also, an added bonus if you buy the camera...all your footage will be 100% compatible with Panny's 4 grand HD camera that comes out in 5 years!

Murph

I'm in the same predicament except I onlyl have about $3500 for the cam. There are just too few choices in this price range!

I've got the PD170, DVX100A, and yes even the JY-HD10U on my possibilities list. If none of these pan out I'll buy a GS400 until something better comes out.

Christopher, I see you have a PD170 and JY-HD10U for your business. I'm guessing you use the PD170 for low light weddings and the HD10 for widescreen? BTW - I'd love to hear your thoughts on these two cams and also see some footage from the HD10!

David,
Both cameras you mentioned for John are obviously proven winners, but I think he was looking to spend a little less. John,
Check out the highest end consumer cams from the big companies, Panasonic PV-GS400, Canon Xi, Sony DCR-TRV950. They'll all be a huge leap up from your JVC, and leave some room to grow into without having to spend a few grand (XL1/PD170). The next level up from thoise would be the Canon GL-2, Pana AG-DVC30 (or 60), and the Sony DCR-VX2100. The GS400 is really looking like the best value, right now, especially if most of your shooting will be in good light. (outdoors + daytime = good light)

Thanks guys for the feedback. Since I placed the post I have had quite a bit of feedback from another forum I belong to from users of the Canon XM2 raving about how pleased they are with their camera and pointing out some of the benefits I was not aware of. Again they pointed to the use of a rain guard, which is a product I never knew existed. I am going to make a decision soon so I will let you know how I get on. Cheers everyone.

I want it all (in a camera)
 

Hi everyone. I'm new to this forum, but I've been lurking for a while. I'm getting ready to buy some DV gear and would like a little advice.

I'm the lead VFX artist on "Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda". Which is shot on 3perf 35mm, telecined to tape at D1 widescreen with 3-2 pulldown.

I'm looking to get a camera that has the resolution and color info to be able to do tracking and some greenscreen work, at D1 widescreen, at 24p. I'd like to be able to do my own VFX tests...

I'd also like to be able to use the camera to shoot some local TV advertisments (bob's used cars...), and be able to do consumer family stuff too.

I'd also like to spend less than what the xl2 will cost (especially as the xl2 needs another 1k for wide angle). These are the camera's I'm looking at:

XL2
DVX-100a

(and I also like the pv-gs400 as it meets most of my requirements other then 24p , and people would laugh if you showed up to film a commercial with it)...

Thanks for any advice.

Mike

I'd say probably the Panasonic SDX900 would be your best bet. Only problem, it won't meet your cost parameters.

Re: I want it all (in a camera)
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael R. Blackbourn :and I also like the pv-gs400 as it meets most of my requirements other then 24p , and people would laugh if you showed up to film a commercial with it)... -->>>

Welcome Michael!

Have you looked at the PDX-10? It's another smaller camera, but has XLR inputs with the same mike as the PD-170, DVCAM recording, high res 16:9, high res BW viewfinder, pro black finish. The XLR box is removable and then it will record with built-in stereo mikes, nice if you want a smaller camera for the family stuff. I like mine a lot, but from what I'm reading it isn't quite in the same league as the XL-2. But for $1,850 (at B&H) it would leave enough to add a mattebox and other accessories so the guys at "Bob's Used Cars" won't laugh at you ;-) You could use a product like DVFilm Maker. to acheive the 24p effect in post.

Of course you get what you pay for, and if the XL-2 is within your budget you might want to wait and see some reviews after people get their hands on one, it sounds like quite a nice camera to me.

Who do you work for Michael? Rainmaker?

I bought some XL1 accessories from a fellow from Rainmaker.

If native 24p is a must, and $5,000 is too much (...it is), the DVX100/100A is gonna be your bag.

If you could save 24P for post (which you probably don't wanna do), check out the PDX-10, which is essentially the GS400 minus Cinegamma, plus XLR and DVCAM, or the AG-DVC30, which is Pana's in-between model. It has the ability to add an XLR breakaway box. The DVC60 is basically the DVC30 in a shoulder-mount style with a smaller LCD and built in XLR. And then there are the VX2100, and PD170 (VX2100 plus XLR and DVCAM), which are Sony's other top cams.

Yeah, you probably won't look too professional on a shoot with the PDX-10 or the GS400 because they are so small, but believe it or not, they have the best 16:9 of the bunch, and are loaded with pro features...

BTW - I used to watch Andromeda all the time, but they kept moving it to later and later on Saturday nights, and I couldn't keep up...did Dylan reunite the commonwealth? Slipstream was cool...good job...uh oh this post is moving into non-DV territory :)

I have nothing to add except to bitch about another show ruining the name "Dylan" for me (the first being 90210). Now I keep hearing all these mothers screaming my name at their ill-bred kids.
I've been waiting years to get that off my chest.
Otherwise, I like the show.

Anyway...
I'd put my vote in for the DVX100 as the best choice in your price range. I have to point out, people may laugh at you showing up to a commercial shoot with anything smaller than a shoulderbrick.
Yes, even with a mattebox.

Thanks for the replies guys. I just wish the native widescreen on the DVX was as slick as the rest of that camera.

As far as my VFx work goes. We have a small in-house VFX facility onsite, we send very few shots out of house anymore, I think Rainmaker is just doing our telecine and output these days.

And yeah, Dylan reunited the commonwealth, then it got corrurpt, then at the end of last season everyone seemed to have died fighting the 'magog'.

Mike.

You're obviously going to be using the DVX for professional work, so an anamorphic adaptor should pay itself off pretty quickly, and that way you're getting a high quality 16:9 along with all those other great features.

I'm taking a closer look at the DVX100A, as the xl2 20x lens bottoms out at 42mm wide angle. Adding the xl1 3x wide would put the xl2 way up there in price.

The DVX100A has a canadian dollar msrp of 5675 which is 4250 usd. I assume it will be available cheaper in stores, I only hope that it will be as cheap as b+h.

Mike

Micheal, it's cheaper than that for sure. Even if you bought it localy at LLSR, Matrix or Leo's, you shouldn't pay more than $5,000cdn for it before tax.

would you recommend buying locally then? I found http://www.dvshop.ca and they seem to have decent prices...

Mike

Which camera
 

Im in a bit of a pickly guys.Im not sure what camera i should get,im leaning towards the vx-2100, but i was also thinking of the gl2.I know they both have there good points,but i need a bit of help on this one. Im open for all suggestions, or anything like that. Anything would help, thank you

Which might you value more, light sensitivity (VX) or zoom length (GL2)?
The VX seems to be of a more sturdier build, the GL2 more plasticky.

For most people on the forum, the best bet is one of the forum sponsors, like B&H, ZGC, or Zots. Being in Canada, you may have issues if you have to ship the camera back and forth for any warrenty issues. It WILL be cheaper from one of the sponsors coming in from the USA, but the local shops will be able to give you instant customer service. I'm not a fan of Leos (cough-still camera nerds-cough), but really like the way Lorne Lapham treats me. They are pro all the way. Still, you could probably save $500 by buying it from B&H.

There is also frame mode on GL2, but VX has also his strenghts. The best recipe is try&buy. I was shooting with (company's)PD150(VX2000 on steroids:-)) and finally choosed for myself XM2(GL2), and never regreted for a bit.

I had this same predic. Then I found out that the only true progressive shooting mode that the vx2100 has is 15 frames per second. How "15p" could create at all decent footage escapes me. Since the 30p look was what I really wanted in my new camera, I went with the gl2. I agree with you though, the vx2100 does look more durable.

I had this very same problem myself, a few weeks ago. I wanted frame mode, so was gonna go with the GL2. But it just seemed like a plastic cam.

IMO if you want durability, and frame mode another option is the Panasonic DVC30. I have bought one and am not dissapointed. It has a metal alloy body (not plastic like GL2), Frame mode + cine gamma, fantastically controllable 16x zoom lens, a modular design to accept upgrades, and a shape and menu system similar to the DVX100.

Well I certainly agree that you need to buy a camera that "feels good" to you, and I don't own either a GL-2 or DVC-30 (I have Sony's). However I've seen other people tout the metal body on the DVC-30 before and that sounds a bit like marketing hype IMO. I am certainly not saying that it isn't a great camera, but I just wonder how much value a metal body has? And I also wonder what the GL-2 is made of?

If you're worried about durability then do a little research and see how often the GL-2 breaks or falls apart. Like I said, I don't own one, but I don't really remember seeing people say they're fragile in the forums here or elsewhere. But maybe I've missed something? Now if you just don't like the way the GL-2 feels that could certainly be reason not to buy it, no argument there.

My point is that you should buy the camera based on whether it has the features you want, owner experiences and preferably first hand experience. All the manufacturers hype certain features of their products and that's just part of the game. Try to see through this and evaluate the important aspects.

camera
 

i purchased my dvx100ap from b&h, included, 1 9hr battery, wide angle .x6
came to 5600canadian
took it across the border in a bag....

Getting more serious. What type of camera? Shoulder mount?
 

Greetings. This is a newbie question and I know I'm gonna get flamed, but I need the advice.

I've been playing around with my Canon Optura Xi, Final Cut, etc. mostly doing family video, trying to learn as much as I can and hoping to turn my hobby into something that could someday get me out of the IT biz. I've been reading as much as I can about and experimenting with lighting, sound and editing.

I am about to accept some paid jobs doing corporate training videos (interviews, Q&A, demonstrations) and also some jobs shooting the action for a stock car racing pit crew.

I think that I need to get a new camera, both for quality reasons (although I'm not sure that *I* could tell the difference) and to appear more "pro" (I just don't think that showing up with my Optura Xi is a good idea.)

I looking at the Canon GL2 ($2050), Panasonic AG-DVC30 ($2100), Panasonic AG-DVX100A ($3500), Sony DCR-VX2100 ($3150). I plan to go on a "fact finding mission" to B&H in New York soon (I live in CA).

When I get there, what should I look for? How should I check out these cameras?

Also, Panasonic has announced a shoulder mounted version of the DVC30, the AG-DVC60 ($2400). Should I be considering a shoulder style camera? It seems like it looks more "pro", and I can see it being handy around the pit crew, and I like the fact that it has XLR inputs, but I can also see that there could be some disadvantages too. Essentially, is the shoulder style a good idea, or would I be better off getting a quality hand-held camera?

Thanks! This is a great forum and hope to start contributing often.

--Cameron

Re: Getting more serious. What type of camera? Shoulder mount?
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Cameron ORourke : I looking at the Canon GL2 ($2050), Panasonic AG-DVC30 ($2100), Panasonic AG-DVX100A ($3500), Sony DCR-VX2100 ($3150). -->>>

Perhaps you were looking at list prices? The VX-2100 leapt out at me, it sells for $2,350 at B&H. Or maybe you were thinking of the PD-170 which they sell for $3,200? There is now a $300 rebate on the PD-170 which lowers the price to $2,900 - not a bad deal at all.

As far as the shoulder mount thing, I know that some people will find this more impressive. However keep in mind that the DVC-60 only has 1/4" chips and doesn't have some of the other advantages of "real" shoulder-mount cameras, like interchangeable lenses and a high resolution viewfinder. Of course it is considerably cheaper though. I suppose you need to balance the need to create a good impression versus a desire to get the best image for the buck. If you already have these jobs lined up then maybe you should concentrate on image quality?

Why in the world would anyone flame you on this topic? You must be thinking of some other website... ;-) Happy shopping!

I'd go with the dvc60 because for one it looks pro, which is very important for the sort of paying jobs your talking about. Also, if your doing ENG type of stuff, shooting from the shoulder is the only way to be really solid. This cameras cine gamma technology should also render more pleasing results under uncontrolled circumstances.

Boyd, thanks. You are right, I forgot to get the selling price at B&H for the VX-2100.

You mentioned the PD-170 which I noticed is a DVCAM. Is DVCAM (vs. DV) something that I should be looking into?

Also is a 1/4" chipset with 410,000 pixels each (The DVC-30) inferior to a 1/3" chipset with 380,000 pixels each (the Sony VX2100) ? This is confusing.

Also, I notice that some of the more "pro" cameras like the PD-170 have a black and white viewfinder whereas the "less pro" DVC-30 has a color viewfinder. Plus the DVC-30 has a 3.5" LCD whereas most of the other cameras have only a 2.5" LCD. I have a BeachTek XLR transformer so on-board XLR would be nice, but is not essential.

I'm starting to think that I ought to try and rent some of these cameras to really get the skinny. :-/

--Cameron

everything you need from b&h can be done online, i wouldn't spend the money for a trip, just to visit 'em... spend those $$$ on a better camera.

those little sony 3-chip cameras take a great picture, but you need to examine all the controls, to see if some of the functions you'll need are easily accessible... sony will sometimes bury things in silly menus, because there simply isn't enuf real estate on a small camera to make all the functionality externally accessible... the xl1s does a pretty good job of that, once you understand the rather arcane button setups.

the ideal solution for shoulder-shooting is to have an optically-stabilized(not electronically-stabilized) lense, especially if you are rather new to the video game... you can get shoulder mounts for the small cameras, but i've never tried one.

no matter what camera you get, the bottom line is always how well you know the camera itself, and how good you are as a shooter.

Dan, thanks. The reason I was thinking of actually visiting B&H was to actually get my hands on the cameras and try them out -- check out the location of the controls, feel the balance, check out the optical stabilization, etc.

When you say "little sony 3-chip cameras), are you referring to the Sony DCR-VX2100?

Something else I'm wondering. I've heard lots of references to being "skilled with the camera" or being "a good shoorter". I've found all kinds of books on NLE, lighting, sound, scriptwriting, directing, etc. but nothing on how to skillfully capture a scene. I know there must be a whole body of knowledge on this...

Thanks,
Cameron

Being a skilled shooter isn't just frame composition, its as plethora of things usually learned through experience (or a good message board :) ). Like if you do the pit crew video, you need to know when to keep the camera rolling. You certainly won't be shooting for 4-8 hours straight, so you're going to have to be intuitive about when and when not to be recording. The biggest part is prepreoduction. Plan ahead of time what shots you need to get to be able to create a narrative later in your NLE. You should probably sit down with your clients and go over the shooting script to make sure they get what they want, and let them feel like they have a little input. Once you know what shots you need, think about the time of day when you'll need to get certain shots so you can put them in a logical order. For example, which parts of the racetrack will be accessible during the race day? Should you go a day earlier for some comparison shots of the grounds without the crowds, or for some quiet pit interviews on the grounds? etc... Being a good shooter is as much being comfortable with your cam as it is being prepared.

With today's cams, shoulder mount is not a must unless you're doing hours handheld (ENG and the like). People won't be offput by a smaller camera unless you walk in with a little matchbook cam. As long as it's bigger than the one they have at home and has more buttons, you should be all right. Plus once you add on a mic, a big lens hood, lights, etc...a medium sized cam will look plenty pro. If you have the lighting, you could easily get away with 1/4" chips (outdoor, daytime), but for the corporate stuff, 1/3" will give you a little leniency indoors.

Hi Cameron,

A nifty camera that "has been discontinued" from Panasonic is the AG-DVC80. B&H currently has them in stock at $2400. I have one and it gives me superb footage. Has XLR built in and is the DVX100As little brother, almost identical. The 80 has the 1/3" chips - its replacement, the DVC30 has 1/4" chips. Its worth a long look imo.

Jesse, thanks for the advise -- I'm reading it very carefully. And, I've decided that for what I'm doing that a shoulder mount is just plain silly. Image quality should be my first consideration -- not sure what I was thinking...

Bill, thanks.

I'm starting to "get" that 1/3" CCDs are really a lot better than 1/4" CCDs, although I'm not sure exactly why if the pixel count isn't any different, or is even less (especially if the lens is the same size).

But in any case the DVC80 is a good lead as its $1000 cheaper than the DVX100A. Other than not getting 24p and Cinegamma, the specs look identical -- and I'm not really going to be creating films, at least not for a while. :-P Can you think of anything else that the DVX100A has over the DVC80?

Also, are there any comments on Panasonic's optical image stabilization vs. Canon and Sony? I've read that it is problematic.

Thanks,
Cameron

Woa.

While you may go for a loaf-of-bread (LOB) form-factor camera, the highest image quality is the domain of the on-the-shoulder pro cameras. The shoulder-mounted DVX-60 isn't in the pro camp but does deserve consideration in your application.

I'll give you an example. Ever notice the shots in the CNN coverage of car races where the camera is very close to the ground and then swoops over tires and up over the hood line of a car? That's very hard with a LOB camera because it doesn't have the mass (and what it has isn't placed to advantage) to stabilize the shot. A heavier, deeper profile pro camera will provide a stability because of it's mass and the mass location. LOBs are quite difficult to hold steady compared to an on-the-shoulder- camera

Comments about inaccessible controls doesn't apply to the DSR-170 or the VX-2100. All required shooting controls are external and separate. Setup items are on menus.

DVCam is exactly the same image quality as DV.

BTW, I use everything from a large shoulder-mount camera to a fit-in-the-pocket camera and a lipstick camera. Fit the camera to the job, as you are trying to do, is always a good idea.

the advantage with an "lob" configuration is that you have optical image stabilization, flip-out lcd monitor, and a top handle... even a trained monkey can get a steady swoop shot with that kind of a rig! j/k

the problem comes in trying to hold a tiny camera steady in front of you... many inexperienced shooters will try a two-handed shot using the flip-out lcd monitor... imho, totally the wrong approach, anchor it on your shoulder with an aftermarket mount, and use the eyepiece to frame the shot, not the flip-out monitor... you should also have easy access to the zoom and exposure controls at the same time.

i would go down to goodguys or maybe fry's, and get some hands-on with the smaller cameras... the last tiny camera i shot with was the old sony 950, and it's functionality was a joke, compared to what i can do with the xl1s.

the classic difficult motorsports shot is when you have to make radical manual exposure adjustments, while doing fast pans at the same time.