The PV-DV852 has lots of manual controls. But it doesn't have frame mode. The horizontal resolution playback test was done by Stuart Cooper, Pana AU. There was another one done that I read but cannot recall the link. The GL1 res test, well, it was mentioned in DV Mag., CNET, Videomaker, and one other place which I cannot recall. (That's when Videomaker accually had writers that did these kinds of tests and included them in their reviews. Remember now, the GL1 goes a way back.)

Dylan,

Go have a look at the Panasonic PV-DV852 at Leo's Cameras (Granville Street, Downtown Vancouver). From the time this cam first cam out (as a MX1000/Japan and as a MX8/PAL Land), until a few months back, I snubbed my nose at it. Then reading all the hype over the last year, I actually went and looked at one, like several times. In my opinion, it's the jewel from the junk, among new 1 CCD cams. (But I still like the GL1, and the GL2 even better.)

(PS: I do like my MX300 best, however.)

Frank, I'll check it out next time I'm there. You've got me curious about it now!

One thing Jeff brought up that shouldn't be overlooked, is that if you buy a used Optura Pi, or GL1, instead of a new camera, you will be able to re-sell them in a year or two for much closer to what you paid for them. Optura Pi's seem to be holding their value really well in the used market.

ok, so I'm pretty set on the dv852 but compare it to the panasonic AG-EZ50 which is only 200 bucks more on bhphoto.com. It's 3 CCD's, and I wasn't sure if this was a great deal that I should look into or should I just shutup and get the dv852? I mean, what is it about the DV852 that makes it so good? What specification is the tell tale sign that it's so good in the spec list? There is a new panasonics coming out that is 1.5 megapixels for $899 list and the dv852 is 1499 list for just 1 megapixel.... I just am not catching on to how to tell them apart. Sorry for being a newb with so many continuous dumb questions, I just want my first "big" camcorder purchase to be the exact right one. Thanks so much to everyone!

I would stick with the DV852... first, the AG-EZ50 only has 1/6 ccds, so the low light footage will not be as good as the DV852... second, the AG-EZ50 has a smaller lens.

I was in the same postion not too long ago, and I decided that getting a high end 1ccd, is better than a low end 3ccd.

(i have heard that panasonic will be releasing the dv953 in april, but who knows...)

<<<-- Originally posted by Bryan Roberts :

There is a new panasonics coming out that is 1.5 megapixels for $899 list and the dv852 is 1499 list for just 1 megapixel....
-->>>

Dude!
You are getting hung up on numbers!!!
STOP IT!!!!!
You will never win the "numbers" game, because there will always be something better for less money.

Try and find some footage from the cameras you want and compare the "look" of the footage. I bought an XL1 over a PD150 or VX2000 because I liked the look of the picture, rather than by how many pixels it has (less than the Sonys).

Bryan,
I went through a very similar agonizing process, however, after reading just about every post on every forum on every camcorder it finally sunk-in. There is no prefect camcorder. The perfect camcorder is the one that fits you current needs (and is at the right price for you).

If you wait for the "next" release, then you are going to wait forever because some manufacturer is always coming out with the "newest and best".... at least twice a year.

It's like taking your first dive off the end of the pier.... either you make a career out of making the approach, or you decide to jump in and then enjoy diving as you develop your technique. But there is never, ever going to be perfect conditions (calm water, no wind, warm temp, some people to cheer but not too many to be embarassed in front of in case you do a belly-flop first time out).

Make a list of what is important to YOU, such as picture quality, manual settings, price (maybe price first), etc. Then just read this forum and look at the camcorders that fit the bill and don't have a lot of negative comments. Dollars-to-donuts you will come up with 2 or 3 camcorder models. Then it's a matter of finding the right price with the right vendor you want to be your friend for the next three or four camcorders as you upgrade over the next several years.

Don't miss out on the FUN of using a camcorder because you are beating yourself up trying to decide on one. There will always be a newer, more interesting one around the corner..... but at least you'll have one in your hands to learn with. Then you will know what you want in the next one, and the one after that.

Don't miss out on the fun. Dive in and good luck. Nick

If in doubt, buy whichever feels best in your hands! Nothing worse than spending hundreds of hours holding a camera that feels goofy in your hands, or you can't operate efficiantly.

Nick has given excellent advice here, which I'll follow up by saying that the right camcorder for you is the one which feels best in your hands, and whose image you like on a pro video monitor. Tech specs, the numbers, etc. are almost meaningless compared to the feel of the camera and the look of the video. Nothing else matters. Hope this helps,

good call guys, I'll calm down and just buy the damned dv852 and start the process. You can point other newbs to my ramblings contained in this post in the future, thanks for everyone's input, feedback and help!

-Bryan

Camera Selection
 

I would like to preface this by stating that I don't want to start a "camera wars" thread, but would like to some further opinions.

First, I have searched all the threads and believe I have read just about most of the stuff on the the various cameras. I'm looking for a camera to do "no budget" documentaries with. Since any marketability of my projects would be TV/Video, 60i would be fine and I'm not really overly concerned about the "film" look aspect.
I would be interested in knowing the best format for transfer to DVD though. I'm am leaning towards the PD-150.

Here is my thinking so far..

The XL1S is a little beyond what I want to spend based on the fact that I would have to buy the additional XLR audio. Also, it seems a little less suitable for handheld and run-and-gun work.

The GL2 while boasting a 20x zoom and comparable picture quality to that of the XL1S appears to need much better lighting (6 lux) than other units. Also, one message commented on the "cheap plastic" feel to the unit. From my reading, it doesn't seem like it is the same league as XL1S, PD-150, and DVX-100.

While I have read tons of things about the DVX-100's 24p mode, I have found virtually no information on shooting in 60i and not trying to achieve a film look. Also, according to www.pixelmonger.com, the lens is less than favorable. Also, curiously at 1/2000 (which is plenty fast), it does have nearly a fast a shutter speed as the others. However, I am still open to hearing more about this camera.

This leaves the PD-150 which appears to be somewhat dated and does not have a frame/movie mode that is comparable to the others. However, based on the messages here, it appears to produced the sharpest and truest colors, has the neccessary XLR audio inputs included, is the best in low light (at 2 lux), and has been widely used in documentary and independent film. Also, it
doesn't look like Sony is replacing this anytime soon.

Based on these things (as well some additional research), if I've ruled out the XL1S because of cost and size, the PD-150 seems to my best bet.

I realize that a lot of these things are personal and subjective, but can someone give me their opinions either way on why I should or should not buy the PD-150. Please include your reasons as well. (aka no "buy this one because it's just better")

Thanks

Carl

I've been using PD150's for a while now and all I can add to your dilema is to decide what you plan on doing with the camera. As I knew I would be shooting weddings and some corporate stuff and had been using a VX1000 before it was a natural switch for me. I like no I love the sharpness & saturation of the 150, I like the fact it's small enough to almost be a stealth camera at a wedding, it's built pretty solidly, I like having the LCD especially with "older eyes" I like the fast auto focus, I do a lot of auto focus at weddings and I feel it gets to focus fairly quick, quicker than I could do it manually.
Now what don't I like? Well, after putting all my gear on it it is somewhat unbalanced, even though I do use a shoulder brace with it it still is a little uncomfortable sometimes. I spent quite a bit of time figuring out the best way to get good on camera audio, gotta watch the levels pretty close, some of the controls are placed in somewhat inconvienient places and I don't ever have a need in my work for "the film look" I like the video look, I can adjust saturation and sharpness in the presets, I've done it and gone back to the factory setting, I like having 2 XLR's the tape mechanisim seems strong, although I hate using the camera as a deck and only RARELY do I, but still... I never used the memory stick, sorry, I have a decent digital still camera.
So now do I like it or not? YES!!! I do. More than like. The quality of the images produced are astounding for a camera of it type and price range. I was going to get a 250 to go with it but now, well I'm looking at the 370 or Pany200. I already have 2 150's I guess I don't need another (250) The only reason I would go to something else is for the 1/2 chip and longer tape times, although I have been using Panasonic PQ 83's with no problem for ceremonies.
So you be the judge. I love mine 150's glad I made the investment. Is it a perfect camera? Not a snowball's chance in a firestorm! It is however IMHO a great buy for the money and yeah I know there are newer, faster, models that have the smell of new leather and bright shiny chrome engines, but sometimes newer doesn't mean better and if you're not going to be looking to do "film" than I think the 150 is a great cam.
That's my slightly biased opinion.
Don

The only thing abut the DVX100 that might interest you over the 150 would be that it has higher resolution. Resolution isn't everything, and it's going to be difficult to beat the look of the 150, but still it might be something to consider. However, if I were going to buy a camera in that class today, I don't think I'd go for a first generation. As close as we're getting to NAB, you may want to wait a few weeks--it's possible (though I haven't heard anything) that Sony might come out with something new in the 1/3" chip arena and the 150 just might drop in price. On the other hand, they could come out with something new that has smaller chips and the 150 could go up in price, as the TRV900 did when they came out with the 950.
What I think I would do is, if I needed the camera immediately, I'd go for the 150. If I had the luxury of waiting, I would see if a second generation DVX100 is close.

I don't like the look of the picture the PD150 puts out compared to the look from the XL1, for a film type look.
Since the XL1 is in the same price range as the other two, it is fair to eliminate it only because of size, especially for run 'n gun. I guess if you bought XLR inputs and an LCD screen it would be more.


I'd buy the DVX100 if it came down to it an a PD150. From what I hear, it has a very film-look picture.

Carl,
I'm not hands-on familiar with the new Panasonic camera, but I tend to agree with Bill; beware of the first generation of a new genre.

The PD-150 has certainly withstood the test of time and has a very loyal following. It's a fine camera. But, again agreeing with Bill, March is the worst month of the year to buy a video camera. This year's NAB in early April promises to herald several new models of cameras which might influence your decision and/or the price you pay for a current decision.

Stopped by the WEVA Town meeting after work yesterday since it was only a couple of miles from me. Reps from from Sony, JVC, and Panasonic were there along with Roscor reps in each of the manufacturers booths.

Unfortunately, Sony didn't have a PDF150, but I played around with the PDX-10. The Sony rep told me that there is no direct replacement for the 150 coming this year. He also said that there is a new camera that will be shown at NAB, but it will be in the $5000-$6000 range and would not be similar to the cameras discussed on these boards. However, he also says that he doesn't get all of the official training/presentations on the NAB show for another couple of weeks. The PDX-10 didn't seem to go very wide and it blurred out very easy at about 2/3 of the max zoom. I was not overly impressed with it although the build quality looked excellent.

The Panasonic guy was really animated. He started up with the 24p pitch and was ready to roll until one of the wedding guys told him that they were more interested in 60i. He then went over pretty much all of the functions of the camera. When I asked him about the max shutter speed being 1/2000 vs. 1/10000 and 1/15000 with competitors products, he skirted the question. I handled the camera for a short time and would have to say that it felt pretty solid and had decent balance for a cradle type handheld shot. The panasonic rep conceded that it wasn't the best in low light, but at 6 lux, that's already known. Overall, I got a good impression of the Panasonic. They had a show special price of $3099 on the DVX-100 which was the best I have seen. As stated here, the 60i only model is coming out in June and will list for $500 cheaper.

Finally, I checked out the JVC guys. I had never done any real research on the Streamcorder GY-DV300U and was never really considering it. After playing with it, I found that I wasn't missing anything. The flip out screen was tiny, it felt front heavy and poorly balanced, and looked/felt cheaper overall than the other units. Ergonomics didn't excite me either. The JVC rep was a great guy though.

All the manufacturers also had their next level of gear there as well. Sony had the 370 and 570 and Panasonic had the DVC200 at a price that seemed pretty good if you were in the market for that level of camera.

Overall, was a good experience that gave me some touchy time with some of the units although I wish I would have got to see a 150 as well as the Canon products.

I'm still leaning heavy towards the PD150, but still want to see the GL2 and the PD150 in person.

Hey Carl,
I was signed up to go and was all set to, but I got a call and had to meet with a prospective B/G for a wedding this weekend. Oh well, sounds like the town meeting was OK and I guess I DIDN'T miss much from the big 3. Oh well, next time.
Thanks for the report, I look forward to meeting up with you sometime since we live so close.
Don

advice requested regarding purchase of camcorder
 

I am a composer who is venturing into the medium of digitial video/film, in order to create full-length films/videos of my musical theater pieces. I am not thinking of filming in a theater, but instead "on location." I would have a director to work with. I would like to have quality that festivals would accept. I have about $5000-6000 to spend. What would you recommend?

I have a Mac Ibook. I would like for it to look like film, and so would also get a program like Magic Bullet at an academic rate.

An additional question: I have access to several high quality canon lenses used on an EOS 1 V camera. Would these be usable on any of these cameras?

Here are some options that I’ve been researching.

Canon XLS 1. Is the movie frame mode really that great? Could I achieve a better quality picture if I shot it in video format and then processed it with magic bullet?

Canon GL2 (I have heard this might be as good as the XLS 1?)

A used GY-DV500UL14 Professional DV Camcorder 1/2" IT 3-CCD, W/CANON 14X LENS, VF-P115U Viewfinder. Advantage of this seems to be that it has a higher color bit processing and higher line resolution.

Panasonic AG-DVX100 24P Mini DV Camcorder,1/3" IT 3-CCD, 3.5" Color LCD, Color Viewfinder, Firewire (IEEE-1394) I/O, Progressive / Interlace Recording, 10:1 Leica Dicomar Lens, XLR Inputs

I really appreciate any feedback people might have.

Garrett, are you planning on using your iBook to edit with? Are you including MB in you budget? Your iBook will not be up to the task of editing and heavy rendering that MB requires. You'll need a G4 of at least 667mhz for decent performance. MB will render too slow on a G3.

The EOS 1V lenses can be used but require the XL1 EF adapter and because of the difference in size between 35mm film and 1/3 (or 1/2 inch) chips the focal length is multiplied by 7.2. Most lenses become too long to be practical for anything except wildlife and surveillance work.

Unless size or cost become a factor I would go with the used JVC DV500. However, size and weight can limit you and force you to use heavier and more expensive support equipment. Heavier, tripods, non-consumer batteries, etc. will start to eat away at your budget. The XL1 is lighter, smaller and less expensive to outfit.

The Panasonic my eliminate much of your need for MB, but doesn't offer interchangeable lenses like the DV500 and XL1.

The GL2 is a great camera, but unless your budget becomes very tight (maybe because you purchased a new PowerBook?) I would go with the DVX100.

If I was doing this I would go with the JVC D500 (bigger chips always win), an 800mhz PowerBook (most bang for the buck), MB for a non video look.

What are you doing for audio? The on camera MIC. from any camera will not be suitable for high quality musical theatrical pieces.

I Need Advice on Buying a New "Traditional Looking" (like a Betacam) DV Camcorder
 

Okay, I'm using an XL-1 that is 3 years old and I still love it. Great picture quality, no dropouts, no problems. We've been thinking about adding a second camera and it seems like now is the time. We might have a profitable gig where we'll be subcontracting for a client, and they feel their client is very image-conscious and will object to what looks like an "amateur" camera (like the XL-1, or the Sony PD-150). I've heard from friends that this attitude is out there; thankfully this is my first exposure to it (and will hopefully be my last). Does anyone have any advice on a reasonably-priced DV camcorder that has the traditional look (like the sits-on-your-shoulder Betacam)? Originally I wanted the new 24p Panasonic to be our next camera purchase, but that won't have the right "image" (and I'm not talking about picture quality) for our client. I was hoping to stay in the $4000 to $6000 range, but considering that this should be an ongoing job, I'd consider spending more. Can anybody point me toward their preferences? I truly appreciate your thoughts and insights, so thanks a lot in advance!

~ Steve Patterson

Heya,

There are a few like the sony dsr-250 (i think it is called), which is almost indentical to a pd-150 except it is a full shoulder mount rig, looks very much like a betacam. I believe it also takes full sized dv tapes.

Also with panasonic there is the dvc-200, which is a great cam and another full sized rig.

They are all nice cams, depends how much you want to spend, you could also dress up your xl1 much cheaper to look like 'the shit' if you catch my drift. Big matte box, huge fluffy on it, even the mic is not used, and all that other stuff.

Zac

THat's an easy one.

JVC GY-DV500

I'm not sure if it's still in production, or just out of, since it's been replaced by the DV5000, but the last I heard the DV500 was selling for close to the same as an XL1s. Of course, batteries and other accessories will jack up that price.

JVC GY-DV500 or DSR-250.

Thanks!
 

Thanks for the input, everyone! I can't say I have made a decision yet, but there are a couple front-runners. It seems like going with a 1/2" 3 CCD camera is definitely within my budget range, and the suggestions you folks have made have a camera body with the "professional image" the client is looking for. Thanks again! I'm still looking for suggestions, so if anyone has a favorite among the ones suggested so far, or knows of something else entirely, I'm all ears!

~ Steve

The JVC 500 is still in production and was not replaced by the 5000. They have different features and different price points. The 500 would be an excellant choice, as Dylan point out.

I think it's kind of funny. I've seen several XL's lately on the news, downtown Bagdad, and nearly downdotown bagdad. Obviously they aren't very professional.

The XL-1
 

Dear Harry,

I know exactly what you mean. I love my XL-1. And it's the person using it that makes it professional, right? I am not looking forward to going to an on-the-shoulder style again, but the cameras everyone has recommended so far seem very good and surprisingly affordable.

Steve

Check out the PANASONIC AG-DVC200. This is a very good camera if you are looking for 1/2" chips.
http://www.panasonic.com/PBDS/subcat...ag-dvc200.html

JVC also has the GY-DV5000U, which is in the same price point and with somewhat better specs and it could be said is a better deal.
http://pro.jvc.com/prof/Attributes/f...l_id=MDL101367

Both offer 4 hour recording capability. Remember, it all boils down to what lens you put in front of it, so get the best lens you can.

- don

Pros/Con's on some of these cameras.

The DV5000 is considerably more expensive than the DV500.
It does have a lot more features, but is still a 1/2" chipper.

The DSR250 is only a 1/3" chipper, but still in the price range of the 1/2" chip DV500, I think. Plus the DSR250 is a fixed lens camera, unlike all the others we are discussing.

The Panny DVC200 is pretty nice, but in the higher price range of the DV5000 and DSR350 I think. Still pretty nice.

The DV500 has got to be the best bang for the buck out of all of these. I've seen used ones going for less than $3000us including batteries.

It wouldn't be under any warranty though, and I have heard nightmare stories about a couple of these failing after warranty and the cost to fix was e-x-p-e-n-s-i-v-e.

I think it might make sense to shoot for a new DV5000 with a warranty. You'll be able to do a LOT with that camera. If you don't mind the limited (read: very limited) lens on the DSR250 and the 1/3" chips, you can get these for cheaps.

"Reasonably-priced" - I would definately place the DV5000 under that category. Remember, there is still a certain cost involved when you bump up the form factor to the classic "BetaCam" shoulder mount style. Bigger and more expensive batteries, better yet still more expensive viewfinder, better and more expensive lens, etc.

- don

DV5000
 

Thanks again for all the input! I am leaning toward the JVC DV5000. It combines several features I like a lot, but is available at a reasonable price. The 1/2" CCDs are a big plus over the Sony DSR250. I have to work as a one-man band pretty frequently, and the color LCD screen on the DV5000 would be very convenient for checking your shot quickly while the interview is happening. Plus I've seen good reviews online.

I'd say the Panasonic AG-DVC200 is a close second.

Does anyone have additional thoughts regarding these two cameras? Advice, cautions, recommendations from anyone who has one of these cameras?

By the way, Don, I attended a course you taught at the NYDV Expo. That is, if you are who I think you are. :-) It was very informative. Thanks!

Cheap, but still decent dv camcorder?
 

Can anyone recommend a cheap but still decent dv camcorder. I would expect to spend under $450. I want to use this camcorder to do my editing with so my main camcorder wont wear down its head. I have the dvx100 for filming but I would like a cheap dv camcorder to do most of its playback and transfering to computer and use it as a grab and go camcorder. Thanx for any suggestions.

Hard to beat the Canon ZR60, shouldn't cost more than $499. One of the least expensive DV camcorders you'll find.

There's also a Panasonic that's under $400 these days. I can't remember the number.

The panny dv53 is under $400. It has 1/4" 680k CCD which isn't at bad for light sensitivety. B&H has free shipping and there's talk of a rebate.Panasonic wrotr the book on low cost value cameras. they've taken serious aim at that market niche with theri sister company JVC.

Personally Canon video tends to have a satured look for those little ZR's. It sort of looks like a MTV candid camera look. Did you know MTV uses PD-150's and VX-2000's for broadcast

Help with 1st DV Cam choice
 

Hi Folks: I've looked through a number of posts here - really an excellent source - thanks all. I'm brand new to DV and I think I've narrowed my choices down to Canon Optura 200MC and Sony DCR-PC101 or PC120.

I'd really it to be in the 2.5 x 4.5 x 4.5 size range, just over a pound to pound and a half. Optical stabalization, good lens. I know the Sony doesn't have Optical but it looks like a good one anyway and it's got a Carl Zeiss lens.

I was looking at the Panasonic 852 but it's a bit too big for what I want. Just home shooting really, just my boy wandering around Disney World, the zoo, that sort of thing. I'm already carrying around a Digital SLR and lenses so I just want to pop this cam into my bag and be able to grab it when I need it.

But I do want a good quality cam, good quality video. I'm definitely going to be editing on my PC with Vegas Video or Studio 8/DV.

I like to spend around 1,000 US. What do you think? Thanks, Davidk.

If that's all you need it for, buy the smallest one possible with the best optical stabilizer (since you won't be carrying a tripod most of the time).

Although some people here will argue lines of resolution and CCD size, the picture quality on any modern miniDV camera is very good.

Optical stabilizer is the way to go. Always look for the one that has a lens and a way of using the exposure controls.

Finally, whenever possible try before you buy.

Thanks all - I think I've decided on the Canon Optura 200MC. It seems to be the only one in a small size with optical stabalization. Thanks again for your help. Davidk

Cool!
Let us know how you like it!