unsure of which 3ccd camera to get
 

hi,
I will soon be buying a 3ccd camcorder. up until now i was thinking about the xl1s, then the xm2 came out which stopped me in my tracks.

I have heard a lot of bad things about the xl1s, wierd lens, front heavy, not very good picture, over priced. these are just some of the comments that i have been reading.

my plan is to use the camera to shoot short films on. then maybe a feature if its upto the job. But i would also want to use the cam for doing wedding videos and maybe corporates and docos.

Would my customers be put off if i turned up with an xm2 even though its capable of producing great results?. Is the xl1s any better than the xm2, i.e is it worth spending the xtra money. (baring in mind that i dont have the cash to buy the manual lens or pro viewfinder)

I would invest in an xlr adapter and pro microphone which ever cam i get.

any advice would be appreciated.

regards

tony webber

Welcome Tony,
You'll hear "a lot of bad things" about every camera...and nearly everything else in life, for that matter. The key is to qualify the source of such information before accepting it. Look around this community, and others, and you'll quickly see that many of the tough stories often (but not always) come from folks who've not (yet) taken time to learn to use their camera equipement as well as they have their computer. Remarks from experienced users and professionals tend to be informative in style rather than deragatory or inflammatory. The fact is that XL1s is a tremendously flexible digital video platform for a prosumer budget. (Spoken as someone who has used one since its introduction as its predecessor before that.) No, it's certainly not perfect. But for its low price it's damn good and amply adequate for most of its owners' purposes. But it does take practice, just like any other tool.

But enough of that.

If you're considering a GL2 (or XM2) you should spend some time over at our GL2 forum to get a feeling for what the early adopters are seeing. It's a very active area right now. Similarly, spend some time in the XL1 forum for a backgrounding on that platform.

Will it be acceptable to your clients? How would we know that? If you asked us whether or not the GL2 can produce professional results rivaling much more expensive equipment the answer would be a resounding "Yes". But, as with any other camera, only in the hands of an experienced professional. If your clients expect you to show up with $50,000 shoulder bricks and a grip crew then, yes, they'll probably be disappointed to see you show up with an XM2 in a shoulder bag.

Which camera should YOU buy? Again, only you can make that decision based on what your goals and needs will be. Gather as much info as possible, try to get shooting time with each and take your best shot. If your budget is as limited as you indicated the XM2 might be the most practical choice available to you regardless of characteristics.

Most importantly, however, don't get yourself into analysis paralysis. Get a camera (any camera) and start getting some practice with shooting, lighting and sound coverage. Which camera you choose between these two is trivial when compared to the amound of experience you gain shooting. (Not to mention just having fun with one of these wonderful pieces of equipment.)

Regarding your clients, sell your RESULTS, not your means. Present yourself professionally and honestly. Clients who have bought into YOU will tend to be better, longer-lasting clients (assuming that you can deliver top-quality results, of course).

I'm sure a smaller 3 chip cam like the GL2 will impress people, especially if you get it all dressed up (Beachtek, Sennheiser ME66/K6, large hood, brace, etc etc).

I whole heartedly agree with Ken. Worthwhile clients will not decide to use you based upon what camera you own, it is your reel that motivates them to consider you "worthy" and whether or not you are capable of creating the certain "look" they have in mind. For those potential clients who do not have any idea of what they want, having a good portfolio/ reel that shows not just one, but various different looks is handy. I would suggest that for your particular situation, having a camera that is capable of creating not just one, but various different looks is key. Both the GL2/XM2 and XL1S are capable of this. The XL1S takes it further with a more complete set of lens, audio and viewfinder options. Considering that you want to start off in shooting weddings, I would suggest that you may need the flip-out LCD panel found on the XM2. You may prefer to take the camera off of your shoulder to obtain a more "low-profile" stance and "blend in" with the wedding party. The XM2's more neutral grey color scheme is less noticeable than that of the XL1S. Weight may be a consideration for you as well, the XM2 is significantly lighter. Factor in your potentially limited budget and the additional items that you will need to complete your overall package - such as wireless mics, shotgun mic kit, audio adaptor, a couple of good headphones, video light kit (you may appreciate the new VL3 video light which works on the XM2, but not the XL1S), cases, grip gear, tape stock, batteries, cables and adaptors, field monitor, backup camera?, etc. You may not have the luxury of picking between the two - in your situation, you just may appreciate the more affordable XM2 and what it can do. It is certainly an excellent camera to begin with and to grow into.

I also agree with Ken that you will hear both positive and negative comments about any camera. To those who you have heard say that the picture on the XL1S is "not very good", I would say "rubbish!!!",,, it has an excellent image and a wonderful look. I have seen many high profile video segments and award-winning shorts and projects which were created with the XL1(S). One of my personal favorite shorts, which has received much praise at the 2002 Sundance Film Festival, is "Anna's Being Stalked" by Scott Pendergrast and Gabriel Rhodes of Stalker Films [ http://www.stalkerfilms.net/site.html ]. This DV short looks excellent and when I saw it projected at the NY DV Show, it looked a lot like film! This DV short was shot with the older XL1 (not the newer XL1S) using the 3X Wide Angle lens. It just reminds one of the fact that it is not just the camera that creates the quality image you are seeking, it is the talent behind the lens that does so.

Tony, you stated that you will also be using your new camera "for doing wedding videos and maybe corporates and docos". In this case, the XM2 is more than adequate! Recently at the WEVA (Wedding Event and Videographers Association) Expo in Las Vegas, the Canon booth was swamped with people interested in the new GL2, in addition to the XL1S.

Please do keep in touch,

- don

cheers for your replys guys. I have just heard a few stories about clients saying "you must be an amateur because you dont have a big camera" etc.

But you are all right, its the end product that counts, not the camera you used,

So in your humble opinons would i benefit from getting a pd150, to get the better viewfinder and built in xlrs.

has anyone used the viewfinder for focusing on the xm2? how is it?

regards

tony webber

You will benefit from testing the cams...
 

You really need to test the cams to see which you will like. The PD150 is a really nice rig, but as far as I know, it cost much more than the XM2. I believe the difference in price will allow you to purchase things like wireless mics and an XLR adapter.

Again almost all the of the 3 chippers available are pretty darn good. So do not over analyze because the differences are small. If you try before you buy you will indeed make an educated choice.

Hi Tony,

Not everyone perceives the viewfinder on the PD150 as any better than the viewfinder on the GL2. Certainly, when Sony first introduced the PD150 to the market, they did quite a good job at hyping up this feature. I'm not implying that this B&W EVF is not any good, because it is. It is not a high quality CRT like the B&W viewfinder on the XL1S (made by Ikegami) though, the Sony B&W EVF is still an LCD with the color dropped. The GL2 internal EVF is significantly brighter and sharper than the older GL1 and the color LCD EVF on the XL1(S). It comes down to what you prefer really. Many people these days prefer to see color and to be able to compose in color. The color EVF on the GL2 is bright and sharp enough to allow you to do this quite well. Also, a big plus with the GL2 (and the XL1S) is that you can completely turn on/ off all of the data display by the push of a button in both the flip-out LCD and the internal EVF. This is very nice, as it gives you the feeling that you are looking through the lens much more than with a cluttered EVF display.

As far as the built-in XLR's, remember that you are paying for that feature and that not everyone likes the feel of two XLR connectors sitting on top of the lens - this makes the PD150 feel front-heavy to many people. I actually prefer to use a BeachTek adaptor (or Studio One XLR-PRO) mounted to the bottom center "sweet spot" of the camera. You can certainly do this with the GL2. This gives a nicer feel and helps to steady the handycam a little bit more, by adding this weight to the bottom of the camera instead of on top of the lens. A big plus of using an audio adaptor this way is that you get big, analog volume knobs (which the PD150 does not have) and ground/ hum removal switches.

I hear most PD150 users say they replace the mic on the PD with a better shotgun mic, such as the Sennheiser ME64 or 66. This is what I do on occasions when I shoot with a PD150. I do shoot with the PD150, at times, when I am hired by a client who provides their own gear. I personally prefer the Sennheiser ME66 when it comes to picking up dialogue from the camera (I prefer using a soundman even more so). If I am in a very tight or "dead-sounding" room, I may reach for the ME64 instead, which has a slightly wider pickup pattern and affords you a little more room tone. The PD150 mic is more of an ambience mic to me, however, it is only monophonic. When it comes to ambience, I much prefer getting it in stereo vs. mono, and the XL1S/GL2 mics are very good at recording stereo. The preamps are very robust too and the limiter is quite good, especially on the XL1S.

Cost of an audio adaptor and Sennheiser ME64 or 66, mic shockmount combined: around $650, sometimes less, depending upon who you buy from. You will get better dialogue pickup this way and a more balanced feel on the camera by putting the weight on the bottom where it belongs.

The GL2 offers a full 30fps "progressive scan" Frame Mode (25fps on XM2) while the PD150 is limited to 15fps Progressive Scan which most people see that as too strobey, useable more for grabbing stills only. On the GL2, many DV filmmakers love the look of Frame Mode, as well as the still images you can grab from tape and the 1.7megapixel progressively-scanned stills with the SD card.

The GL2 lens is also a very high quality, Flourite coated lens with an outstanding 20X Optical zoom. The PD150 offers 12X Optical zoom.

I must say that overall, I prefer what you can achieve on the XL1S with the 16X Manual Servo lens much more than what you can do with a PD150. I also like what you can do on the newer GL2, which has the same image setup control as the XL1S.

- don

hi Don,

So for what i want to do with it, the xm2 is probably the best option for me (in your opinion).?

This is probably a daft question but how much difference would having 1/3 inch chips make to reducing the depth of field?

If i was to go for the xm2 would you recommend using a beechtek adapter rather than the ma300? Do the volume knobs on the beech tek override the xm2's manual audio controls. or would i have to adjust both them and the beechtek knobs?

Any ideas what the libec LH650 tripod is like?

And finally, have you heard any comments on the audio technica at815 and at835 shotgun mikes?

regards

tony

<<-- Tony: If i was to go for the xm2 would you recommend using a beechtek adapter rather than the ma300? Do the volume knobs on the beech tek override the xm2's manual audio controls. or would i have to adjust both them and the beechtek knobs? -->>

I've not used the MA300 but have looked at it. I -have- used a BeachTek unit many times. The MA300 is certainly better-integrated with the XM2's audio circuitry (through the Super Shoe or whatever they're calling that interface). But it represents two hazards in my eyes. First, it's plastic and features a high stress point at the shoe fitting. XLR cables are not light and, being cables, can tend to get tugged. Even with careful pig-tailing I just can't imagine the MA300 being a long-term survivor acessory.

Second, mechanical stress aside, the MA300 basically introduces the awkward deesign that has plagued Sony's PD150 throughout its life. It places cables at the top-front of the camera, precisely where they would be most unwelcome.

So, in my opinion, my BeachTek will continue to provide XLR functionality to my GL2. It's a sturdy, metal casing that places the cable weight and dial-fiddling at the bottom-rear of the camera where it belongs. Look at the Studio One unit also, a close competitor to the BeachTek.

Sorry for the back-to-back post but I just have one comment on the viewfinder issue you noted.

The PD150 does, indeed, have a better viewfinder system than the GL2. Specifically, it features a high-res b&w viewfinder in the eyepiece and a color lcd flip-out panel. A full-frame high-res b&w viewfinder can be a real advantage for manually snapping critical focus. I use a b&w head on my XL1s for certain types of shooting and it's nice to have. But I generally only use it when I'm also using my 14x manual lens. On the GL2 it would be of, perhaps, marginal value since the lens is built-in (like the PD150's) and its focus is servo-driven. It's just as easy to zoom-in, snap focus and then re-frame the shot on the GL2.

(Background note: Sony develped the PD150 with the VX2000 as its core technology. The b&w viewfinder and the XLR ports were amenities that Sony added to the PD150 to encourage big cam pros to use a small camera, since these are features of nearly all big cams. Of course they also added the DVCAM format.)

So I suppose what I'm saying is that Nathan's suggestion to try both cameras is the best suggestion we can offer to you.

Just a question for Ken Tanaka

"..my BeachTek will continue to provide XLR functionality to my GL2. It's a sturdy, metal casing that places the cable weight and dial-fiddling at the bottom-rear of the camera where it belongs...."

Interesting point, my only concern/question how sturdy is the minijack plug that connects the beachtek to the the GL2.?

Can you still use the manual controls on the GL2 as well as the beachtek?

I would be really interested in seeking the schematic for the accessory shoe to learn what the different pins are for. Might be able to make a very low profile connector to fit the accesory shoe. Bypass the minjack plug suck some phantom power. If you really wanted to be cheeky I am sure that the mini light that canon sells would draw the phantom power so you might be able to get the light to work and also hijack the audio ch1 and ch2 without power and plug into a beachtek/studio one.

ken,

are there any other alternatives to the beechtek?

tony

Yes. Studio 1 has a comparable unit. See http://www.studio1productions.com/

Re: BeachTek

Yes, both the level controls on the BeachTek as well as those on the GL2 are active. The dials on the BeachTek control the level of each XLR channel, as you'd expect. The dials on the GL2 control the levels coming into the camera.

Which Camera to buy? MTB Action
 

Hello, NEWBIE Alert! YOU should have used the search! OK OK OK
I'm looking to get a new DV camcorder. It will be used to video tape downhill mountain biking and other crazy stuff. I've used some Sony's and JVC home camera's and it's time for a better camera! The GL2 looks good any other I should look at?
Also can you plug a external camera into the GL2? Running a helmet camera is a plus.

When you plug another camera into the GL2, it becomes a DV recording deck, and if this is something you're going to do a lot, then you might want to consider an inexpensive 1-chip consumer DV camcorder like the Canon ZR40 for the "use it as a deck" purpose.

Your two main camera manufacturer choices down in the prosumer / high-end consumer range are Canon and Sony, because they're the only ones which will let you do zoom and focus "the right way," remotely from the tripod handle. If you're mostly handheld, this may not be a big deal.

The different manufacturers have different color signatures to their video. For instance a lot of folks like Canon because the video is warmer and softer than your usual harsh, cold video.

The important thing is to try before you buy. The right camera for you is the one that feels right in your hands, and whose video looks best to you on a proper video monitor.

In the 3-chip DV camcorder world, you should look at the Sony TRV950, Sony VX2000, Canon GL2, and what's the Panasonic model Frank Granovski likes so much? MX3000 or something like that I think. Hope this helps,

need cam for whitewater rafting vid
 

Hello,

I plan to shoot a video while rafting Class V whitewater and would appreciate any recommendations for a suitable mini-DV camera. The model I'm looking for must meet the following criteria:


1. 3 CCDs

2. compact design, easily held and operated with one hand

3. has a dedicated waterproof (to at least 15ft/ 5m) housing accessory made by a competent third party

4. cam alone is under $2500 U.S.

Thanks,

Mark

The first cam that comes to mind is the 1 CCD cam from Canon, the Optura 200MC.

The second cam that comes to mind is the MX5000 through Tim:

www.dvfreak.com/pana_mx5.htm

Both these cams offer high quality video, and have an optical image stabilizer.

You may also want to check out the GL2, but it'll cost over $2500 US after you bought an extra, larger battery for it and a waterproof case. It also has an optical stabilizer (and a nice big 20X zoom). But I presume you wouldn't need this kind of zoom, and you might even want to look into a wide angle adaptor (lens attachment).

Tim can also get you the waterproof case for the MX5000 (and wide angle), but this will push up the price (of course).

If I had to pick one, I'd pick from these 3 excellent cams, but I'd lean towards the 200MC. A fellow I know has shot lots of good white water footage with his 2 Elura cams (the old one with the optical stabilizer), and now also uses a GL2.

1) The 200MC is a small, single chip upright
2) The MX5000 is a small, triple chip hand-held
3) The GL2 is a larger, triple chip hand-held, yet easy to hold (with one hand).

Check with the dealers/sponsers of this site for where to buy either the Canon Optura 200MC or GL2.

Tim for the MX5000 is another good choice.

My choice would be the Optura 200MC. If you want, I can re-direct a spec review article I have.

granit@imag.net (my e-mail)

Frank,

I like the GL2 and came close to buying one this summer, but its size might well present problems for the purpose stated above.

The Optura 200mc does have Optical Image Stabilization, but has only one CCD and is otherwise a downgrade of sorts from previous models, e.g., smaller CCD, smaller lens, Canon got rid of progressive scan on most if not all of the consumer DV cams for reasons unknown. if you feel otherwise I'd love to see the review you mentioned.

The whole Panasonic MX-5000 quagmire: I've now seen the nasty debate on DV.com concerning the grey market situation that US residents like myself must deal with in order to buy one of these intriguing cams. Not being able to play with one before pruchasing is a major negative for me.

Thanks,

Mark

If Chris don't mind me redirecting, Rick!! had a thread on this over at the Justeditors.com forum.
He'd put a video of himself whitewater canoeing.

Peter

I see, you want small, you want frame mode, and you want a 3 chip. I'd then go with the MX via Tim. I have it's PDF manual download links at:
www.dvfreak.com/pana_mx5.htm

I've known Tim for over 2 years, and heard nothing but good feedback from people who have bought from him.

I realize Canon downgraded the lens and CCD with the 200MC, they did this to make the cam smaller. The 100MC was a very large upright model. Just send me an e-mail, and I'll redirect that spec/info review. I haven't yet seen the 200MC, just read up on it. It looks nice, though, and looks like it's easier to hold than the 100MC.

That Walsh23 post, I'll also e-mail you about who this trouble maker is. I was shocked to discover who the culprit was. Since he realized that I and other dv.com members know about is identity, he's since yanked most of his reference with of his wedding, cam shoot-out! It's now just about his son's wedding. Go figure.

Certified Drunk, I would just buy a smaller, 1 chip camera for that. If you wipe out, and the camera breaks, you're not going to be out that much money. Get one with an optical stabilizer...I can only think of 2:

Panasonic PV-DV852
Canon Optura 200MC

...as far as 1 CCD cams go for in the 2002 lineup. Did I miss one?

If you want a small 3 chip, look at the MX3000 or better the MX5000. It'll cost you a bit more, however; and you'll have to get used to a little Japanese.

www.dvfreak.com/pana_mx5.htm

Whatever you get, buy it from a major seller that tries to soak you with extended warrenties that most people will never need. Buy those warrenties. That way when you bring your camera back in a bag in 200 pieces, you can laugh as you leave with a new camera. Maybe a bit of an exageration, but you get my point, I'm sure.

And I would get the smallest lightest camera you can, personaly.

Along the same topic...
I was going to buy a new Canon mini-upright camera to use as a deck and for personal/fun use. I was also thinking about taking it white water rafting so I would need a housing for it. Could someone direct me to a link of waterproof/underwater housings? I'm mostly looking for cheapest.
Thanks

I'm looking into underwater housings right now. I will of course ask the DVInfo.Net sponsors for their recommendations. Going for a swim with the camera 9unintentionally) is a real possibility where I'll be.

As far as compact 3-CCD cams go someone also mentioned the new SONY TRV-950, but the general consensus is that it's a bit lacking in ergonomic quality, particularly easy one-hand operation.

Thanks guys, lol on the warranty! I was just standing there filming and the thing just fell apart. honestly

Ritz Camera sells an extended warranty that covers water damage. They call it a Damage Protection Plan and it covers all defects and abuses except fire and theft. It's pricey but offers a good value if your putting your camera in harms way. It is available for terms of 1 to 5 years and at the expiration, the plans are yearly renewable. I know of many people who have collected new cameras under the plan.

Jeff

Ugh.

Re: "Thanks guys, lol on the warranty! I was just standing there filming and the thing just fell apart. honestly"

Frank,

I take it you've had bad luck with the Ritz Camera warranty or your just expressing a personal opinion and not a fact. I doubt you'll find a better warranty in the industry. Ritz is a large merchant and faces it's own problems as such. However, they do try hard and they mean well. Overall they are a positive force in the camera industry. They are not going to provide the level of service that an advanced amateur or professional (such as your self) needs. But they do fill a vital role. As a point of reference they are the largest Nikon dealer in the world and probably the largest Minolta dealer in the world. They didn't get there by providing terrible customer service.

Jeff

Can't decide which camera to buy!
 

Hi all-
I'm looking to buy a camera to do some light DV editing and such for a relatively large church (about 300 persons). Right now I am stuck between the Sony MiniDV camcorders and the JVC MiniDV camcorders. Any advice on which one I should buy? I'm looking for best image quality for under $1000.

Thanks so much!
Derek Snyder

If you are going to use the camera seriously, as in recording a church service or some other event, you probably know you'll want to mount it on a tripod. When you do, you'll notice the *biggest* single problem you'll have is making smooth, slow, nice looking zooms. Bending over the camera with your fingers on the zoom rocker is not the way to do it. What you'll want to do is use a remote zoom controller (see www.varizoom.com and similar manufacturers).

The JVC camcorders have no provision for remote zoom and focus control, but all Sony and all Canon DV camcorders do. The controller plugs into the LANC jack on these cameras. Trust me, this is a big deal and if you want my advice, you should base your decision on it.

If you're not going to shoot from a tripod, then maybe it's no big deal. Under $1000 all that really matters is, how does the camera feel in your hands. If you can get down to Manhattan, walk into B&H, the largest camera store in the world, and definitely try before you buy. Personally I think you'll be happier with a Sony or Canon. Hope this helps,

If you really want to impress the church-folk, take some of that $1000 and invest in a wireless mic setup so you can pull in some good quality sound. It doesn't matter how nice the picture is if they can't hear what's being spoken.

Since you are going to be staring at the LCD screen for hours on end, I'd also suggest getting the one with the biggest screen.
The vari-zoom controller is a good idea. Being hunched over the camera with your fingers on the zoom rocker is extremly hard on the back after 30 minutes.

Consider the Panasonic PV-DV702. Then with the money left over, buy an extra battery, a UV (protective) filter, a cheap protective bag/case (Lowepro Vidcam 2), and a tripod/head.

Stick with 1 brand/type of miniDV tape
(www.dvfreak.com/tape.htm)

Your total would then be about $1000.

www.dvfreak.com/buyersguide.htm

Jeff,

I wasn't referring to Ritz. I was referring to this fellow's need for a good warranty because of what he is going to do with a cam. "Ugh" was meant as a response to the dropped cam, an expression.

And thanks for the little bit about Ritz. I'm actually looking for some Nikon odds and ends for my FM2-T. Really. I'll check them out.

Sorry Frank, I misunderstood the Ugh. I don't work for Ritz or am related to anyone who does. But they do serve a role in the camera industry. They can move product. In most markets Ritz has what they call a Nikon HQ store which will stock most of the odd ball items. They also have regional warehouses with inventory and they can transfer between stores. If they are ever out of a product they will ship N/C also. However, small items, in stock, are what the smaller merchants can excell at.

Jeff

Recommendations for a DV camera
 

I'm a film student and I have basically no budget to shoot on, but I've done a lot of work with hi-8 cameras and obviously I'm dissappointed with video quality. I primarily use premiere, and I have decided to purchase a miniDV camera to use. I've noticed that most semi-professional users go with the XL1s and the canon GL1 I think, but those models are way above my price range.

What I'm looking for is a miniDV camera for under $1200 with high image quality and decent sound. I'd also like to get a camera that is easy to accessorize, so that in the future (when I can afford it) I may be able to attach a wide angle lense etc. The market is a bit confusing because I don't know much about how these cameras perform in the real world. Some cameras, for instance, boast a higher resolution than others, but others cost more. I'm really looking for best bang for the buck.

I'd appreciate any recommendations you have. Thanks.

If i was in your shoes, i would be looking for a used sony trv-900. They are really nice cameras, and yield great results, they should fall right into your price range and very easy to find addon parts, and small and light enough to stick a cheap tripod with.

kermie

Or, now that the GL2 is out you might find some GL1's floating around if you look hard enough.

Actually, $1200 is a bit too expensive. I've been looking more in the 700-1000 range at new cameras from sony and canon. From what I've seen, there really isn't a triple CCD camera I can afford. It's a pain because I can't scrape enough money together to get a really good DV camera. I'd settle for something like the Sony PC120 or the Canon Optura200, but I'm not sure how good the picture quality on those models is.

Kurt i know of a PAL trv-900 right here on sale for around $1000 USD, You would have to spend at least another $1000 on sounding it and putting it on a tripod, but it would be a fantastic package.

kermie