Budget revised...
 

I can spend up to $2000 on the camera alone. The extra's (lenses, mics, etc...) I can pick up as I go so they won't be as big of a financial hit.

A used XL1 would be nice but I think it probably overkill for me at this point. Does it do true 16:9?

Mods, thanks for sorting out my posts, sorry for the confusion.

Cheers,
Scott

In that case Boyd's suggestion to consider the PDX-10 is an excellent one.

Joshua,

About the time lapse thing, I noticed that the GL2 did it and thought it would a cool option. I guess I could just press record evey few minutes myself with the GS400 and do time lapse that way.

I have followed your posts on this board as well as the pana BB and am quite interested in your mini35 adapter. I'd like to contact you thru email if that's alright.

Cheers,
Scott

Yes, I did a time lapse this way myself. I recorded a scene during sunset, shooting a few seconds every ten minutes for about an hour and a half. In the end, I used a few of these cliips and did cross-fades for a poor mans timelapse. This was more of a light-lapse, as there wasn't much motion in the scene.

You could always just let a tape run for an hour and put together frames from that. You burn through a tape, but it'd be easy. In fact, most NLEs, if you throw the clip on a timeline and speed it up by some 1000% or whatever is necessary, will just drop out frames, and you're all set. Maybe need to add some blur or ghosting effect to smooth it out.

It would be nice to have in camera, but it's doable in post.

For the record, I'm not marketing an adaptor, just discussing a hypothetical one. I don't know any more than anyone else who reads these boards. :)

GS400
 

Thanks to everyone for their input. I think I am going with the GS400. More effective pixels than the PDX10. Also, is it just me or are there more people that like Canon and panasonic than Sony?
I am most likely going to buy locally so I can return it if that tape transport problem crops up.....unless anyone knows of a good online place that will pay return shipping if they send me a bad one...? I just don't think I should have to pay for return shipping if I'm sent a defective unit, but it seems a bunch of these online places think it's the purchasers problem.

I have one more question regarding 16:9 footage. If I shoot 16:9, can I make a DVD that plays as it should on a widescreen tv and then plays on a 4:3 tv with the black bars on top and bottom? Like a normal retail DVD does...I've only authored a few DVD's at this point and none have been widescreen yet.

Joshua, I will try that with the camera after I get it, thanks! I understand about the adapter....I was mostly interested in your progress and experience since you are working with the camera I plan to buy. Oh I see, I typed "your" adapter, I realyy meant your expeience making one. :) I followed the posts that you participated in with Steve Dinkins and his 35mm experience.

Thanks again everyone!

Cheers,
Scott

I'm sure you will be happy with the GS400. But I've two last thoughts for you.

First, if you have the opportunity to do so, I strongly recommend taking at least a couple of these cameras for a test drive, even if it's just handling them in a store.

Second, pixel counts are largely meaningless with regard to the final footage. Remember, the primary viewing venue for all of these cameras is televisions. In that realm resolution is measured in lines of vertical resolution. To that end, the camera's digital signal processing that translates the raw pixels to scan lines is really the key determinant. Manufacturers play with pixel counts mainly for marketing purposes. So don't be too swayed by that stat.

Have fun with your new camera.

If you properly create an anamorphic DVD then it will do exactly what you want. On a 4:3 TV the DVD player itself will provide the letterboxing. However on a 16:9 screen it will play at full resolution and fill the screen. You'll need to study your software manual to see if your DVD authoring application supports anamorphic 16:9.

The user's DVD player must be properly configured via the menus as well. All the players I've seen default to use with 4:3 screens. So if you have a widescreen TV then you need to go to the system menu on your DVD player and choose the correct option for 16:9 so the player knows your screen type.

BTW, unless I'm mistaken the GS-400 and PDX-10 have CCD's with identical specs - 1/4.7" with 1152x864 pixels. But Ken makes an excellent point about trying the cameras and not buying on specs alone. Let us know how it works out for you.

Now what...?
 

So I went to the local Camera World and tried out the GS400, the GL2, the HC1000, the XL2 (wow, I wish I could..) and the VX2100. The GS400 was nice but was a lot smaller than I thought it would be. It also felt a little akward in my hands to operate compared to some of the other cameras. I think my fingers are too long.

They did not have the DVC30 or the PDX10. I have to admit that I had previosly just discounted the Sony's across the board because I believe Sony as a brand is always overpriced. You always seem to pay more to have those four letters on your gadget and it may not be better than the stuff that says Panasonic or JVC. Anyway, just my personal opinion. That aside I had to take notice that the Sony XV2100 can be found for just over $2K. Even with all that, I feel as though it may be more camera than I can actually take advantage of. I am thinking that I might just spend less on something like the Optura XI and put about $700 into a "Shooting Video" Class at the NW Film Center in Portland. After I get more comfortable and start shooting video worth watching, I will probably have a whole new crop of Video camera's to choose from and the starter camera can become my "second".

If there are any noobs reading this, take the advice of the experienced people on this BB and try out the cameras in a store. It definetly makes a difference how you think about the cameras.

Cheers,
Scott

Good for you, Scott! So many people get lathered-up for a particular camera and are then either overwhelmed or disappointed when they actually take ownership of it. You were fortunate at being able to actually lay hands on several models.

Your plan sounds like a thoughtful, mature way to ease into the basics of shooting. I suspect you'll be glad you took such an approach a year or two from now. Learning good photographic principles and practices is vastly more significant to the end product than using the most advanced camera. Top-grade cameras can be rented for specific projects for modest amounts. Top-grade talent and skills are harder to get.

If it's of any interest -- I had narrowed my choices to the GL2 and the VX2100 before I finally decided to get the GL2. The 20x zoom and the Canon rebate were the main factors in my final decision.

Gee... which camera should i get?
 

now, i know this topic has probably been answered by many of you at one time or another, but i dont have time to sift through all the threads to find the answer.
ok, so my question is, which one is better to get, DVX 100a or Canon XL2?!?! if any of you could review each pro and con of each camera, that would be nice.

Uh, why do I get the feeling that I'm being made fun of...?

Or am I just self-involved and/or paranoid?


EDIT: Hey, what just happend to Rhett's response (the one I'm referring to above in this post)? After I submitted my reply, his had disappeared... Maybe I really am paranoid...

John: don't be paranoid, I removed Rhett's post from public view because it seemed harsh and bordered on flame-bait. Rhett: I would have sent you an e-mail about this but you haven't provided us with an address.

For everyone else: Rhett's suggestion was that Cole should first do his "due diligence," and then ask us specific questions.

This is all you need to know...
 

This is a very helpful review of both of those cameras you mentioned as well as the Sony FX1. It compares and contrasts them all, using them all in the same situations, so you will be able to choose what camera you will need to best suit what you are doing.
http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/shoot3/

now im paranoid! but, mr. stooky, that review is great thanks a lot!

Cole, if I may (since this my hobby horse for the day): The problem (if there is one) arises from the fact that you said, "i know this topic has probably been answered by many of you at one time or another, but i dont have time to sift through all the threads to find the answer."

It has nothing to do with who is a professional and who is a hobbyist. It has to do with taking the time to do your own initial research. There is a wealth of archived information here at dvinfo.net, and it is going to waste when people don't take the time to review what has already been discussed. Once you've read through the exisitng information, you can asked a better-formed question, one which we might actually be able to help you with.

EDIT: OK, since you seem to dive headfirst into the review posted above, you obviously have no problem with doing the research. You were just looking for a condensed review...

im sorry if that sounded rude. the truth is, is that i have looked all over the internet for the past few months and have come up with pretty much nothing. in addition ive gone to many retailers and asked them what they thought, every last one of them said they didnt know. when i said i didnt have time what i really meant was "ive been on a DV internet binge for the past two hours and now im hungry, answer my question now". i was hoping the harshes wouldnt be apperant, but apperantly it was. i really am sorry if i sounded like an ass but i really didnt mean too.

OK guys, I think we finally have all this sorted out. I've trimmed this thread down a little to remove some posts which really have nothing to do with the topic. Please, let's try to be constructive and discuss cameras instead of personalities....

Well, having read the above review, what do you think now? What sort of projects are you looking to do? The DVX100 is still moving off shelves fairly steadily -- which either says something about the quality of the DVX or the power of inertia...

Jan Crittenden of Panasonic says that currently the DVX comes with "a copy of Magic Bullet for editors, a copy of Barry Green's DVX Book and DVD and now a $300 [rebate]" Bonuses like this may or may not matter to you. What features would you prefer in a camera?

I've been very happy with my DVC80, and had I had the money at the time, I most likely would have gotten the DVX. Were I a more accomplished photographer, I might consider Canon's line, which would provide me with interchangable lenses. But, as some members like to mention, even an accomplished filmmaker like Soderbergh can make the Canon look like a one-chipper. The review Mitchell posted is some good reading, though...

Wow, I guess I missed something.

Boyd, I sent you an email.
John, not sure what you're referring to but I wasn't trying to make fun of you or anyone.

Cole, I guess my point was that these forums ARE one of, if not THE best resources for information on the internet. By doing a few searches you can find tons of information and links to even the most obscure information regarding DV and video production available. It is all provided by professionals of different levels of experience, for free, by voluntarily donating their valuable time. I certainly appreciate it, and hope everyone else does as well.

Good luck on your quest.

Cole, you haven't told us what you plan on shooting. It's pretty important to the choice of camera.

well, ive really been leaning towards the XL2 because it was the first one i knew about. you see, i love movies and thats what i want to do, make movies. im still fairly young and i have all these ideas swarming around in my head and for the longest time, ive wanted to shoot these movies. then, one day i saw an add for the XL2 and it blew my mind! i was shocked that a camcorder was capibal of such a thing. well, several months later, here i am, deciding which one i should buy.

I guess what im looking for with the camera is:

a. something thats reliable

b. produces the "film look" (which is a great idea) and

c. very nice audio.

so, with which ever camera i get i want to be able to make a "proper movie" and not some cheap 200 dollar handheld camera movie. so which one works best for a begging film maker? the xl2 or the dvx 100? they both sound so good and im still undecided.

help?

by the way, is that 35mm movie really shot on the xl2?!?! becasue if it is, thats totally what im looking for!

<<<-- Originally posted by Cole Lanter : by the way, is that 35mm movie really shot on the xl2?!?! becasue if it is, thats totally what im looking for! -->>>

What movie are you referring to? Did I miss a comment?

Also, I've seen some amazing looking stuff from dvinfo and dv.com members that was shot on a PD150, GL2, etc (older, non-progressive cameras) -- and they looked good because the director understood lighting, framing, and other important aspects of filmmaking/videography. You may be very disappointed (as many first-time DVX100 users were) to find out that you can't just take a 24p camera out of the box and make a "film-like" movie. There's a lot more to making a "proper movie" than just the camera.

yeah, thats something i never really thought about... (the lighting and all that stuff). well in that case, where can i learn about all the aspects of film making? is there a book you would suggest? maybe i could get the camera (XL2 preferably) and fiddle around with some different tecniques to see what really looks right, good idea or bad idea?
but you're totally right, i think it would be wise for me to grasp all the technical aspects of making a "proper movie" before i open the box. so to restate my question, whats the best way to learn about all the technical aspects of making a movie with a DV camera?
and i would just like to say that i really appreciate all of you guyses advice... ive learned more about DV cameras in one day than i have in the past 3 months. thank you

You're looking right at it.... it's DVinfo my friend

Cole: Browse through our book forum for lots of good ideas on what to read http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisp...?s=&forumid=36

Cole

Take it from somebody who has worked trade shows for years now, where people come up to me and ask the exact same question as you did in your original post.

Get your hands on the cameras. The right one for you is the one which *feels best* in your hands. End of story. It's that simple.

There's a lot of good reading to be found here at DV Info, I hope you enjoy your experience here.

<<<-- Originally posted by Cole Lanter :
but you're totally right, i think it would be wise for me to grasp all the technical aspects of making a "proper movie" before i open the box. so to restate my question, whats the best way to learn about all the technical aspects of making a movie with a DV camera? -->>>



Not to sound sarcastic, but....

How about four years of film school, followed by a few years of experience working in the industry working under masters of the craft?


Just a thought.

I want to add my two cents....

First on your list Cole:

a. depends on your definition of reliable, but most pro-sumer camera's (what we are talking about here) are "reliable"

b. this hasn't got much to do with the camera (see below)

c. this also hasn't got much to do with the camera (also see below). Good audio is a function of the EXTERNAL MICROPHONES you attach to a camera (onboard DOES NOT cut it for fictional work, unless there is no speech), your guy/woman who records the audio for you and the final audio mix

With all due respect to everyone who is eager to get started
making "great" movies and think that the "film look" is the holy
grail and the answer to the look you want, think again.

The single most important thing is still the story. A "film look" can
definitely enhance a good story, but it can never fix a bad one.
After this acting, editing, lighting, audio recording, framing, camera
moves etc. are all much more important than your camera.

Yes your camera decides how things look (although you can change
a lot in post with things like color correction!) and it is very important,
but do not blindly look at just the camera.

Camera (technically) wise, the look is most decided by the quality
(3 chips better than 1 chip etc.) and framerate. Film is shot at 24
fps and both the XL2 and DVX100 support this framerate, so that
is good news for you. One of the final things is emulating the
exposure latitude of film (we simply don't have that with our
video camera's) which the DVX seems better to do in camera (film
look gamma curves, which the XL2 also has!) according to users,
but I find the DVX too grainy for example.

Personally I'd rather do the S like gamme curve adjustment in post
in the editing package (I'm using Sony Vegas 5).

My ramblings here have hopefully opened your mind to see there
are lots of things to learn / consider.

One of the biggest questions that I think no-one has asked here
yet is: what is your budget?

the most ill spend on a camera is the XL2, which is from my understanding the most expensive.
And yes, i have thought about film school but i fear that most of the schools are out of my budget.

As stated before, dvinfo.net is a great resource for you to start with -- it's a little like you're standing in the middle of a library and asking, "Where can I find some books?" :)

Another suggestion would be to pick, say, 3 to 5 movies (on the low end) that are similar in style, scope, and/or genre to the movie you want to make. Go rent those titles and spend a weekend holed up in your house, watching movies and taking notes. Seriously -- take notes like you're getting ready for a test. Pay attention to how shots are framed, how the story evolves, how lighting is used, how dialog is used, etc. Find what you like and make note of it. It's the cheapest film education you can give yourself (well, next to great, free resources like dvinfo.net).

ok sweet. ive been going through a lot of the threads with the search function and found a lot of great stuff. you guys have been really helpful, thanks a bunch.

Wich one?4 Prosumer camera...
 

Hi,
I'm an happy owner of mx500, but I've to shot wedding with another xl1s, so my mx500 has a lot of problems in low light (I think everybody knows this)...
In your opinion wich is the best camera for replace an mx500, without spending a lot of money?
In my opinion one of these could be a good choice for my budget:
xm2
jvc gy-dv300

Ok I need your help, I know little bit the xm2, but I don't know how it is compared to the xl1s...
And....the jvc, I search in the forum, but I found only few and old post, anyone has this camera?It seems very good...but a lot of people prefer sony or pana or canon...any opinon?

If you already have a Canon XL1S I would stay in the Canon range
so your footage more closely matches. The XM2 would be the
obvious choice if you can't get a second XL1S.

Small DV camcorder with ajustable sound input??
 

Hello guys,

I'm looking for a small DV camcorder with adjustable sound input. I wanna make candid concert recordings. Therefore I need a small but manual operatable camera. Especially in the sound departement.

What would you advice me at the moment?

Cheers,
Dirk

The current Canon Optura models, namely the Optura Xi, Optura 500 and Optura 40 all have manual audio (see my comparison chart at http://www.dvinfo.net/canonoptura/articles/compare.php). You might look into the current consumer-range Panasonic three-chip camcorders, they are just as small and I thought they had manual audio as well.

That's a cool chart!

I heard that some lower end camera models will no longer support S-Video! Might you add a column for that?

I find my camcorders work great even dubbing to betacam sp, but I always use the s-video connector. I wonder if those cameras with the manual audio also have s-video.

Thanks -- none of the Canon ZR series have S-video anymore. I'm not interested in doing charts on entry-level budget cams. The Optura line is the only Canon single-chip camcorder that I want to spend time on. All Optura models have an S-video jack, by the way.

The ZR that I have has an S-video connection, so it must be the newest ZR's that don't have S-video.

Glad to hear there is a beginning camcorder with manual audio input AND S-video.