Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

You don't need scope to be cinematic, here is "The Train" which was shot in 1.66:1 and uses it to show the non human stars to full effect. No CGI or models, they blew up the real thing.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Ryan, look back and you'll hopefully see why I asked if you were talking about art or craft. You said art. You are however thinking craft. Do you think that all directors think about pixels and ratios? They know old TV shape, new TV shape and the movie wide and not tall shape. These three things are really two now that 4:3 is gone. In their mind they visualise it. It's difficult to describe but if the movie will take place in a spooky forest with trees, or in St. Paul's cathedral or outside the Statue of Liberty in the critical scenes, then the lack of height makes ultra wide the wrong choice. If it takes place on desolate beaches or other locations that have little height content but plenty of width, then this becomes important. Some directors will also consider what happens to it if it's on the shelf for years. How it will translate to new formats. I mean that maybe phone orientation will drift us into vertical letterboxes in 20 years time. How will a wide screen product be viewed? You see directors using their hands to simulate the frame all the time. It's the art of film making. You are clearly thinking like a DoP wanting instructions on how we are shooting. You don't have the star from the artistic creator. We just cannot help here.

Sometimes Ryan, you just need to know what YOU want, and not try to follow a rule book. All your topics are based around collecting rules, that sometime you will need to break, but breaking them is usually something the breaker just 'knows' have to be broken. Every single topic you start on every single different subject contains the same feature. At some point you say "you've been told ......" And we try to explain that sometime you were told wrong, or misunderstood. Why do you torture yourself like this.

You do not have the skills naturally, and are on a quest to learn everything, instantly, without trying and developing. I've said it before, but I KNOW what I am bad at, and with huge effort and considerable time I can improve, but neve be a natural. I also know where NO amount of effort will work. I am a terrible artistic person. I do not have the vision, the ideas, the spark. No amount of wanting will work. However, I'm rather good at taking these ideas and making them work. That is what I get paid for. Whenever I have had to deputise for the director or executive producer I can just about hold the course they set, but I cannot set a new direction. When a new captain arrives I'm far happier and they ALWAYS choose a new direction, and not the one I carried out. I simply don't think based on previous topics that you, like me, have the vision.

You simply cannot picture in your minds eye, the critical things. Directors would have the idea and come to the forums with questions on how to solve the problem. You want the problem solving BEFORE it arises!

I really urge you to do an internal audit of your existing skills and understanding, then use it to form your future. We can help with the craft. I don't think we can help with the art.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Oh okay I probably meant craft then. As for whether the locations are more taller or wider, I would say some are taller, some are wider for the project.

What about movies like Die Hard and Alien? Die Hard takes place in a very vertical location, yet they chose to go with 2.39:1 for it. Alien takes place in a tight boxed in location yet they chose to go with 2.39:1. Why were those choices made for those movies?

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Alien generally stays on the same plane, with the area above being the unknown from which the Alien can appear.


Pretty much the same with Die Hard.


This film uses the verticals as part of its look

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

I-Max does it the other way because they take delight in have vertical motion, that the non-letter box format works better for. I'd actually forgotten Alien - some of those amazing scary sections would have been rubbish without the limited height.

There was some flack with 2001 a Space Odyssey which had various formats inflicted on it during it's life in the cinema - 2.21 and 2.35, but with mangled versions of what was cut off. Blade Runner as a comparison, has gone the other way and decreased the ratio to 1.9, which gets marketed as 26% MORE for IMAX venues.

I guess you need to look at this more as if you were a painter, selecting a scene to paint, considering what is going to be in it. It isn't a recipe of every bit in every scene, it's the whole thing, the concept, the look, the stimulus for creating emotion in the viewer. That is not something to be defined or measured - it just 'is'.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Oh okay. I thought that Alien and Die Hard maybe would have benefited by cutting off the sides of the framing more, making the sides of the frame, the unknown from which the threat can appear.

The script I'm planning to direct is a suspense thriller kind of similar in tone and atmosphere to a movie like The Silence of the Lambs or Seven.

The Silence of the Lambs was 1.85, and Seven was 2.39, and the genre and type of feel of the movie seems very similar, at least to me.

So I feel therefore, I am not sure which one to pick. I read that in 2.39:1 is more of a challenge cause you have to find more set pieces to fill the wider frame with but is that true, especially if in 1.85, you have to back up the camera further to fit everyone in for lots of shots, which means that you will see a lot of background still anyway?

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Wider will usually need more filling, plus it can be harder to get the light stands etc out of shot.

I suspect you'll just have to go with your gut feeling regarding the aspect radio , because people here can't provide that for you. Only you know the locations, story, action and feel needed and asking more questions won't provide the answers. You should discuss it with your DP, since they are the person who will need to frame your film..

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

I'm not sure about everyone else, but when I'm ever in a position to make a mistake in the future, I cheat.

If I do not know what format to use, then I shoot taller and frame with the notion of possible cropping later. I tend to zoom out a little wider, and leave some space at the sides. In practice I end up going in a little in the edit - with of course the ability to pan and tilt a little too. in a real movie this would be planned in advance. If I cannot do this, then I shoot knowing it can be adjusted. I also do it when there are booms as the occasional dip happens, so framing a tad wide and not revealing this as an 'unnecessary' feature to the sound folk gives me again, more options. they have their invisible barrier not to cross just a little further away than need be - but they don't need to know that.

Anecdote time. What always surprises me is that people seem afraid to ask questions. I do it all the time. working with some UK big names last week, being old works for me. I was able to go up to the female and quietly explain that her very short skirt would be tricky in the next sequence. She looked me in the eyes and said really, why? I explained and it seemed nobody had mentioned exactly what was coming next. She was very appreciative, and the Director blocked around 'my' problem. She was really grateful, because she told me that nobody would have told her, in case she was cross. I told her that all I cared about was making people look the best I could, and even if she'd been angry I needed to tell her. I got a hug, and a sudden genuine result.

Somewhat annoyingly though - she has also decided I look like a friend of hers - Pete Waterman, so she's calling me Pete now.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Yes, today you don't have to shoot with anamorphic lenses with 2.39;1, you can use "flat" lenses, so decisions can be postponed or changed at a later stage by cropping.

I should qualify "asking more questions won't provide the answers" by "asking more questions here", since we have so many unknowns.

The safe answer is to shoot 16:9, but that may not be the ideal for this particular film, although you may be the only member of the audience who knows.

BTW, You don't need short skirts to have an issue, Female MPs should take care when sitting behind the Prime Minister in the UK parliament when the Prime Minister stands at the dispatch box.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

What was Fritz Lang's quip on Cinemascope? "...good only for snakes and funerals"
.
There was much discussion in the film industry when in early 1953 Fox announced that it would film ALL future productions in Cinemascope (which never happened). How to fill the wide screen? It's interesting to look at some of the earlier Cinemascope films to see how this was achieved.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Oh okay. Well as far as framing goes, I've always felt more comfortable trying to frame it right during production, rather than pulling back and allowing more room. But that is just what I've been comfortable with so far.

When it comes to filling in space, here is a sample from an earlier short film I did, where I decided to shoot it in 2.39:1. I didn't do the shooting, just the directing:


Do you think that there is more deadspace that needs filling compared to 1.85 though? For example, the first office scene, at 0:34 into the clip, you see a guy at his desk and there is a printer behind him on the shelf. If I shot it at 1.85, the frame would be taller and you might see what is on the shelf above him more in comparison.

You might also see more of his desk at 1.85, and we would have had to decorate the desk more probably. So does 1.85 really hide more space to fill, as people say, compared to 2.39?

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

It depends what you mean by "dead space" a blank, white wall may mean more than the wall covered in decoration in story/character terms. .

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

For what it's worth, it doesn't look like a movie, it looks like TV. Headroom seems to be a problem in that you have a very tight top to bottom crop. For me the worst thing is stability, the sequence on the stairs wobbles and in wide screen it's very obvious. The over the shoulder shot so common in TV doesn't work very well in widescreen either - too much of what we don't want to see. Not sure if it helps.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Oh okay thanks. I didn't think the OTS shot looked like TV though, cause Michael Mann used them a lot in Heat and Collateral and those movies were shot in 2.39:1. But I didn't think it looked like TV since the OTS shots on TV are 16:9 almost always, unless I missed something?

Yeah I agree about the shakiness in the staircase sequence, hence why I want to use a gimbal for future projects for sure, when tracking along with actors.

By deadspace, I mean space that probably could be filled with something so it's not so blank, if that makes sense?

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

TV is not just a frame size. It's the look and the feel. On to we often have film style programmes, usually drama, and it looks different. Over the years many look like TV. Dr Who, a wonderfully British, quaint concept has been on TV for ever and a movie a few times. Everything isndifferent. Movies can be big in every department. Is stranger things a movie? It's shot like one. It looks like one, but it's shown on TV?

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

No, everything provides information to the audience, so it must be there for a reason. Filling for the sake of it can just produce a cluttered frame, which may say that this character has a lot of clutter in their life. While a bare white background may suggest that their life cold and clinical or that they're in an institution that controls their lives.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Oh okay, that makes sense. There are also scenes in my script where I have people protesting in the streets for example. If I were to shoot those scenes, in 2.39, I would probably need more extras compared to 16:9, I am guessing, and therefore 16:9 could save money, on extras, if that sounds right?

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Use as many extras as you can afford, it's up on the screen, save on what you can't see on screen (except food for the cast and crew),

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Oh okay thanks. What am I doing that makes my OTS shots look like TV OTS shots, rather than movie OTS shots?

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

One difference is that "Heat" is shot with Panavision anamorphic lenses, so for the same angle of view, they will be using a lens with double the focal length that you will be using, if shooting with flat lenses. For large screen shots, I would tend to go one wider than for TV eg MCU instead of a CU, although perhaps less of a thing today with large screen TV compared to the smaller CRT sets.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Oh okay, but what if I wanted to CUs instead of MCUs? Some movies have CUs and still don't look like TV. Like this scene here in Collateral has CUs. I couldn't attach a still for some reason but there are CUs at 2:21 into the clip:


How do they do CUs like that and not have it look more like TV?

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Use anamorphic lenses and shoot film.

Failing that:

Don't over light your scenes, use open ended scrims etc on C stands to control your light so that you don't have a distracting highlight as seen on the side of your male actor.

Use a wide aperture on your lenses to control the DOF.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Okay thank you very much. Do I have to shoot anamorphic to look cinematic though? I was told to shoot anamorphic before, but a lot of DPs just don't have anamorphic lenses, so do I have to shoot with those lenses to avoid looking like TV?

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

As a prime example, you've included the trailer for THX 1138 -- bravo, sir. I applaud you. Well done.

That's the second-best movie George Lucas ever made... the first being American Graffiti, of course.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

I can also blur the background more. I shot with a deep DOF so the actors would not go out of focus at any point, but if shallow DOF is better I can. However, if it's not a close up, and a mastershot, with lots of actors moving around, is a deep DOF where you see the background walls in focus as well, bad?

How do you make deep DOF look good like in Citizen Kane, if you want more actors in focus?

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

The answer is usually lighting, that's been the traditional reason for the difference between cinema and television drama. However, modern TV dramas are much better in this regard and the market for Independent feature films is broadcast TV and streaming services like Netflicks and Amazon .

The modern trend is to have a shallower DOF, but deep focus has been used on extremely cinematic films. They use the same stop for the both the wide and closer shots, pulling focus as required.

Selecting cameras that have more colour space and dynamic range and record log or RAW will give you more control over the look when grading.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Blimey Ryan, we thought you got the basic stuff sorted. For many people depth of field is the key feature of real movies from the past because of the physics of film setting well, everything! You do not select a deep DoF to make focus easy, that's why focus pullers were/are essential members of the camera team in movies, but rare in TV. Shallow DoF also needs real lenses, not autofocus doesn't it!

However, the other essential identifier of movie style is lighting. Carefully applied and controlled lighting, done by somebody with an eye for detail. Somebody who understands the needs of camera stock. Now we do clever stuff with camera tweaks with loads of profiles, and before that the lighting cameraman (note the 'lighting' in the title) would consult with the director and spend time choosing the right stock for the right look. Pick a stock that doesn't pull out details in the shadows, and the lighting budget goes up to lighten the dark areas, or pick one that works well on bright keys means outside you'll have loads of reflectors.

Don't get caught up on his DoF thing as an effect, it's not, it's just an identifier. Each scene and maybe each shot has DoF selected deliberately. In movie land, each camera move also has a lighting reset applied to it. The lighting in these examples is worthy of a credit. In your examples everything is flat and reminiscent of the lighting in doctors surgery waiting rooms. Flat bright and even. Shadows draw the eye to the brightest areas, shadows create tension. Look up the steps each medium can resolve from black to white and compare them. Compare the DoF of movie cameras and lenses and their video equivalents, then compare the one you used. The clues are easy to see. Every piece of kit, every location, every set, and how the people use them will dictate the end result. See if you can compare Star Wars with red dwarf and spot the differences. Red dwarf is shot for TV in space ships some very similar shots to Star Wars, yet the differences are blinding. It is NOT about blurring the background, it's about using the physics that makes the background blur. I have never recreated shallow DoF in the edit, I don't know how I would even do it realitistically.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Actually that particular movie cheated its way to deep focus. The best-known deep-focus shots in Citizen Kane were achieved by process photography. In other words, optical trickery. You have to keep in mind that Orson Welles -- who was only... what, 26 years old when he made that movie? -- Orson Welles was a talented magician, as in, an actual magician with a top hat and rabbit and all, who basically transferred his keen ability in sleight-of-hand first to stage, then to radio, and then to cinema. And he had a lot of fun doing it. That is, up until the point that he put Ambersons in the can and went to South America. After that it kinda went downhill. But I digress.

There is a ton of learning to unpack in Citizen Kane, but the most spectacular deep focus shots, like the spoon for instance, would not be easy for you or me to replicate. Each of those three elements -- the spoon, Susan, the door -- each is a separate pass with the plane of focus adjusted for each, which are all combined together for the deep-focus effect. And that's just Orson winking at you as he plays with his giant electric train set, his very first feature film. The whole movie is a long series of optical illusions. And it's also Gregg Toland. If you liked Kane, then you should see Grapes Of Wrath from the year before... that's a more conventional Gregg Toland, working under a stolid John Ford, but the look and the lighting of Wrath has a lot in common with Kane.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Here are a few thoughts on Kane and deep focus:

https://www.premiumbeat.com/blog/how...ane-your-film/

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Oh yes, I know Orson Welles cheated the deep focus, it's just I thought I could get deep focus without cheating, since I was using the Sony A7s II, which has a lot of exposure in the gain to work with.

However, let's say deep focus is not good, and I should just get a good focus puller and shoot with a shallow DOF. Why didn't Welles shoot with shallow DOF and get a focus puller instead?

Isn't the point of deep focus photography to be able to have the actors in focus at all times, so the viewer doesn't have to be directed where to look, and they can decide for themselves I thought?

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

For a serious and in-depth examination of "how they did it" with a chapter devoted to its cinematography, I strongly recommend this book: The Making of Citizen Kane by Robert L. Carringer.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

You mean why didn't Toland shoot with shallow DOF. The answer is basic deep focus serves a particular purpose, just like shallow focus. As Paul states above, it's an identifier. In the famous spoon scene, in which Susan Alexander attempts suicide, all three elements of the frame (the spoon with the bottle, Susan, and the door) carry equal importance, so Welles and Toland devised a way to have all of these things in sharp focus together.

I think the better question is, why didn't Toland rack it? The answer might be that pulling a rack wouldn't have been as effective (even with Charles bursting through the door the instant it comes into focus... that's the modern way this stuff is done). A rack looks great when it goes from point A to point B but when there are more than two elements involved, I think it's "over-directing" the audience a bit too much. When you see this scene for the first time, you sort of have to figure it out yourself because there's no rack focus to guide your eyes. In my opinion, it's better that way.

Keep in mind that even though this was Orson's very first movie, RKO pretty much took the leash off and turned him loose, so he and Toland had the freedom to explore a lot of interesting and unconventional ideas. I believe a large part of why they shot with such deep focus is that it was an unusual practice at the time; neither one of these guys was interested in doing something "the usual way." Orson wanted to experiment and Gregg Toland was happy to oblige. From a visual perspective, it was an excellent collaboration.

By the way, there was indeed a focus puller on Citizen Kane. His name was Eddie Garvin. He did a lot of work with Gregg Toland including Grapes of Wrath and The Best Years Of Our Lives. He also assisted on Magnificent Ambersons. Most of his work is not credited on the screen, but he was definitely there.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

"You mean why didn't Garvin rack it."

Yes, I can be a smart-ass even to myself sometimes. In fact, that's probably when it's most appropriate.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Here's the man in his own words:

Bolded parts are mine, as they relate to this discussion.

There's more to it than just this excerpt, which is a short part of a longer piece. It's a re-print of Toland's original 1941 article that was re-published in the August 1991 issue of American Cinematographer.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

The viewer is being directed, but not by the shallow DOF, but by the composition, the action of the actors and the lighting. Humans are attracted by movement and whoever is speaking in a scene.

A number of films still use deep focus in some shots, if not the entire film; https://www.studiobinder.com/blog/de...ovement-angle/

However, you seem to be using deep focus for utilitarian reasons (not needing to pull focus), rather than for creative reasons.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

I go away for a couple weeks and I mis out on another Ryan thread. Interesting topic but I’m curious about the progress and stage of this film. At one time it sounded like he was editing, then filming, distributing... The questions seem all over the place. Wouldn’t you have determined the aspect ratio before filming? You could re crop but nothing too dramatic otherwise it mess up the composition/quality. I can’t imagine the aspect ratio making or breaking his movie.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Pretty sure the film is still in preproduction.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

I thought he was in pre-production.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Yeah I'm planning it all out, raising money and in pre-pre-production I guess you could say. I want to wait till spring for actual production cause more time for nicer weather.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Yep that's true, the DP/focus puller was not available that day so I decided on deep focus so I could still get the shoot done. I will go for more shallow DOF from now on, in close up shots. Is deep focus during action shots, where there is a lot of movement between the actors okay though, as long as it's for the artistry of seeing action in focus without having to pull?